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So i just finished AoD

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
There are two different major problems with AoD's combat system. One is that it has OP mechanics, mainly the knockdown/ choke mechanics, as well as dodge, as well as longbows, among others. The second problem is that the game's difficulty is too easy to actually require tactics, due to enemies in most fights having inferior equipment compared to the PC, as well as not having access to OP mechanics such as hammer knockdown, shield bash knockdown, bombs, bolas, liquid fire, potions, etc...

A player only experiences AoD's true tactical layer when they are playing a gimped 1/1 or 1/x character. A standard 4/4 character will breeze through pretty much every act 1 fight just by spamming their weapon attack, besides tossing a net on Dellar or in IG mission 1. So ironically, the more the PC is spec'd for combat, the less tactical the game becomes. When people discuss AoD combat, 99% of it is builds or equipment. Almost never do players actually discuss specific tactics.

AoD is what it is. My only lingering problem with it is that the game isn't as fun and rewarding to play as it should be, and combat is one of the main problems. Am I wrong about that? Or is the common AoD feedback "AoD's combat is pure joy!"
Then make the fucking video.

Right now I'm having a very hard time taking your claims (which I don't take personally, mind you) at face value. Not because I'm dead certain that our design is rock solid (it most certainly isn't) but because I spent the last 5 years on our Steam forum trying to convince people who struggle that the game is actually not that hard. So on one hand I have thousands of players and their Steam's achievements, on the other hand I have you claiming that you can breeze through the game with 4/4. So show me. I'd love to see the outpost fight with 4/4 and attack spamming.

If what you say is true, first, I'd like to see that and apply the lessons learned to The New World, and second, I'd love to show this video when the next person starts complaining, so you'll be doing me a personal favor. Even if you end up using different tactics and optimal positioning like you did in that Miltiades fight, the video will still be very useful.

Do what Eyestabber did. IG run with all optional fights. Act 1 will do. Surely that's not too much to ask?
 

Jason Liang

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Then make the fucking video.

Right now I'm having a very hard time taking your claims (which I don't take personally, mind you) at face value. Not because I'm dead certain that our design is rock solid (it most certainly isn't) but because I spent the last 5 years on our Steam forum trying to convince people who struggle that the game is actually not that hard. So on one hand I have thousands of players and their Steam's achievements, on the other hand I have you claiming that you can breeze through the game with 4/4. So show me. I'd love to see the outpost fight with 4/4 and attack spamming.

If what you say is true, first, I'd like to see that and apply the lessons learned to The New World, and second, I'd love to show this video when the next person starts complaining, so you'll be doing me a personal favor. Even if you end up using different tactics and optimal positioning like you did in that Miltiades fight, the video will still be very useful.

Do what Eyestabber did. IG run with all optional fights. Act 1 will do. Surely that's not too much to ask?

Ok I'll think about taking it as a project but you know it's actually a bit of work, so you'd better start learning to read moonrune.
 
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
There are two different major problems with AoD's combat system. One is that it has OP mechanics, mainly the knockdown/ choke mechanics, as well as dodge, as well as longbows, among others.
But your enemies also have access to knockdown, choke, dodge, longbows, among others., and they outnumber you in most fights.

The second problem is that the game's difficulty is too easy to actually require tactics, due to enemies in most fights having inferior equipment compared to the PC, as well as not having access to OP mechanics such as hammer knockdown, shield bash knockdown, bombs, bolas, liquid fire, potions, etc...
That's relative. It varies according to your investment in crafting, your stage in the game and your enemy.

My only lingering problem with it is that the game isn't as fun and rewarding to play as it should be
The problem is that you want to feel challenged after you mastered the game. This is a pointless criticism.
 

Goral

Arcane
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The Real Fanboy
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Ok I'll think about taking it as a project but you know it's actually a bit of work, so you'd better start learning to read moonrune.
If it's so much work doing whole Act 1 do at least barbari fight and play it 10 times showing that 50% (or more) win rate:

But actually with strategy and tactics you have about a 50/50 chance to beat this fight, more depending on which level of cheese you're willing to use.
Personally I doubt you would go above 10% but surprise me.
 

Jason Liang

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I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves. AoD's randomness isn't that random.
 

agentorange

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Codex 2012
"My point is that AoD combat is not difficult enough to actually get the player to actually employ strategy and tactics."

This is blatantly false though, and just a sweeping generalization like most of what you are saying, because I used strategy and tactics to overcome certain fights in many of my playthroughs. Play an assassin and most of the time you will be out-geared and have to rely on using alchemical items, not just bombs to do high damage and knockdown but also using fire vials to funnel or impede enemies in larger fights, poison to gradually weaken tougher enemies, as well as think about positioning, use nets and bolas etc. All of that counts as tactics, and if you are thinking about it before going into a fight then that's strategy. Especially after many playthroughs you are able to plan accordingly before going into a fight because you know enemy equipment, placement, movement routines, and so on, that is all strategy. Thinking about gear and stats is also strategy. The only occasion where I can basically stop thinking about tactics in combat is when I play an IG who gets the maxed out power armor. However in that case I have meta knowledge of how to acquire the power armor, a sufficient number of energy cells, and how to distribute my skills points so that I can do all this. Again, strategy. This is true even after 100 hours of playing the game by the way.

"When people discuss AoD combat, 99% of it is builds or equipment. Almost never do players actually discuss specific tactics."

Again, false. Although I would also say that 99% of the discussion of any given RPG revolves around character builds, so I'm not sure how this is a specific criticism of AoD. Beyond what I already described above, here is a concrete example that I already posted in the screenshot thread. In this fight against Faelan taking some mushroom during the pre-fight dialogue causes him to split into 4. So in order to take down 3 copies I used nets, bolas, fire vials, bombs. After doing this I was left with 1 hp and still had the real Faelan to kill. Before getting here I had acquired cellular regeneration (which I knew how to get because of meta knowledge, and also getting it required me to use tactics in the fight against the mercs because I was outnumbered 3 to 1), so I proceeded to run around the shelf until I had sufficient hp to attempt poisoning him, and did this until I won. I think this goes far beyond your supposedly bullet proof tips of:

"- If you have trouble hitting, increase your weapon skill.
- If you have trouble staying alive, increase your defense skill.
- Wear good armor and use the best weapon you find/ buy/ craft.
- Drink potions.
- Use nets and bolas like the in-game tips tell you to."

(Also it's incredibly retarded to say "Here use these strategies and tactics to make the game easier. Oh by the way this game doesn't require any strategy or tactics.")

There would be plenty of other examples as well. As an assassin it took me something like a dozen tries to get past the ambush that the Forty Thieves set up in Maadoran. That fight takes place in an alleyway with 1 against 5, including two crossbow users, there are no natural chokepoints to take advantage of, and if playing a dagger assassin the enemies have far stronger weapons than you. It took a lot of experimenting on my part before I was able to get past that fight, and it made me realize how useful the Feint option in combat is, because it allowed me to basically use enemies as chokepoints against other enemies. And again this was after about 90 to 100 hours spent in AoD.

DA76A68963D5EF4B87663CBF14F76E1FFA9D787E
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Messages
9,825
... AoD's combat is a joke once you know how the game mechanics actually work, so the game is essentially just a (thoughtfully designed) CYOA/ teleport simulator. If removing the pretense of challenge turns the gameplay to shit, the gameplay was shit in the first place.
Even if this were true, it would still be irrelevant. There are rules to play the game in the way it was designed by the developer. You don't get to decide what rules you want to follow, even less use a derisive moniker for people that follow the rules. That's basic as it gets. It shows how popamole and pussies most cRPG players are. If they have to face any sort of frustration or failure, they can't take it. They need to use some sort of cheat code. This shows how much the genre declined. Players not only feel entitled to use cheat code, but say this in the open. Total decline.
Ok this retarded shit needs to stop.

The game wasnt any easier for me, all it did was open paths i couldnt have explored otherwise, so there goes any argument you could have made against my judgement.
Your idiotic knee jerk reaction and your frankly disgusting veneration of what is ultimately a very simplistic CYOA system are lame.

The facts are clear, and you trying to muddy the waters just so that you dont have to read the criticism is intellectually dishonest.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Messages
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. That's 6 years of observing how people play the game and what tactics they use. So far nobody has managed to replicate your "success" without cheating, hence my skepticism.
Shitpost if i ever saw one.

Your game has very simplistic combat mechanics and you yourself acknowledged this years ago.

I had the exact same early game success by giving me points in social than by not giving them. The only difference was that i was allowed to do more in the game with those extra points, as in, i had actual agency.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Messages
5,703
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California
Setting aside the difficulty arguments, I think it's hard to separate the experience of character building and skill point shortages from the process of actually receiving the content. I don't really have time and energy to explain why that is, but it has to do with why game writing can be so much worse than shlock genre novels [not saying this with respect to AOD, just a generic point] and yet still be fantastic and why Wikipedia summaries of comic book story arcs are so horrible.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
. That's 6 years of observing how people play the game and what tactics they use. So far nobody has managed to replicate your "success" without cheating, hence my skepticism.
Shitpost if i ever saw one.

Your game has very simplistic combat mechanics and you yourself acknowledged this years ago.
I don't recall ever saying anything of that sort. It's not chess, obviously, but it has plenty of depth and complexity. Simplistic combat mechanics are something like click to attack (i.e. no attack choice), no other options (i.e. playing a fighter in BG, for example). AoD has plenty of different attacks with different pros and cons (which is what Jason was using to win that fight), alchemy, support items, action points system where a short sword isn't inferior to a two-hander, etc. Not my definition of simplicity, that's for sure.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Setting aside the difficulty arguments, I think it's hard to separate the experience of character building and skill point shortages from the process of actually receiving the content. I don't really have time and energy to explain why that is, but it has to do with why game writing can be so much worse than shlock genre novels [not saying this with respect to AOD, just a generic point] and yet still be fantastic and why Wikipedia summaries of comic book story arcs are so horrible.
The whole notion of character progression in cRPGs revolves around scarcity of stats and skills. Players that use cheat code to beat the game aren't entitled to express opinions about its merits. They are cheaters that didn't understand what made the game special in the first place.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves. AoD's randomness isn't that random.

This is when he utters some more patronising comments repeating his earlier claims, before disappearing from the thread never having presented any such video
 

agentorange

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Codex 2012
Yeah. A game can only exist as a certain set of rules working in concert. When you ignore one of those rules you are no longer playing the game ergo your opinions on said game are void (for example if someone pulls out a GI Joe during a chess match and says this GI Joe can snipe your king from across the board, or, say, if they give a pawn max stats at the outset of a match so that it can move like a Queen, that's no longer chess). When playing PNP you have the GM on hand to put cheaters in their place, but when playing a video game you are basically entering a gentlemen's agreement with the developer that you will abide by the rules set forth. If you are too immature to do so then you are not even worth thinking about in regards to discussions about the games merits or flaws because you were not playing the same game that people who know how to follow rules were playing.
 
Last edited:

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves

How would you react if a student told you this in class?

I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves. AoD's randomness isn't that random.

This is when he utters some more patronising comments repeating his earlier claims, before disappearing from the thread never having presented any such video

inb4 Jason is sent to a reeducation camp for his heterodox views.
 

mushaden

Scholar
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
334
I will try to play a 1/1 but it would be much easier for everyone if you just made a video
 

Maggot

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
I like to think Jason Liang is trying to make the video right now but can't get that perfect string of good RNG to post the recording.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
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Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
I don't recall ever saying anything of that sort. It's not chess, obviously, but it has plenty of depth and complexity. Simplistic combat mechanics are something like click to attack (i.e. no attack choice), no other options (i.e. playing a fighter in BG, for example).
Thats true, but complexity in BG is made by the entire party. And it is a far more complex game than AoD, both tactically and strategically speaking. And that isnt a very high bar.
I will give you this tho, the consumables in your game added a lot of depth and really could turn fights around in a way that most games fail to achieve, and the rarity made them valuable and very enjoyable to use.


Yeah. A game can only exist as a certain set of rules working in concert. When you ignore one of those rules you are no longer playing the game ergo your opinions on said game are void
The only thing thats void is your head.

(for example if someone pulls out a GI Joe during a chess match and says this GI Joe can snipe your king from across the board, or, say, if they give a pawn max stats at the outset of a match so that it can move like a Queen, that's no longer chess)
Retarded example that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

When playing PNP you have the GM on hand to put cheaters in their place, but when playing a video game you are basically entering a gentlemen's agreement with the developer that you will abide by the rules set forth.
Yeah, i enter a gentlemens agreement with sawyer, MCA and Gaider all the time. :lol: I swear you get stupider by the day.

If you are too immature to do so
:lol: God damn immature gamers not respecting the devs vision. I take it back, you get stupider by the line.

then you are not even worth thinking about in regards to discussions about the games merits or flaws
:lol: So me calling a pink horse a pink horse should be disregarded because i rode the horse when i shouldnt have as per my gentlemens agreement with vince.


agentorange you still havent told me how putting points in impersonate suddenly made the encouters easier. All you have is dumb platitudes that all the retards here will applaud, because its an aod thread, and fanboys abound.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
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I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves. AoD's randomness isn't that random.

This is when he utters some more patronising comments repeating his earlier claims, before disappearing from the thread never having presented any such video

Don't expect the videos soon, I wont have the time until July. I'm a teacher, not a streamer! I will try to make some, both if it will be helpful to VD and also I want Codex to have that live-stream of VD playing through Sengoku Rance and Rance X blind. Agent Orange can provide real-time moonrune translation to VD for that as well:D Perfect!
 

mushaden

Scholar
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
334
Don't expect the videos soon, I wont have the time until July. I'm a teacher, not a streamer! I will try to make some, both if it will be helpful to VD and also I want Codex to have that live-stream of VD playing through Sengoku Rance and Rance X blind. Agent Orange can provide real-time moonrune translation to VD for that as well:D Perfect!

Making a video can’t take much longer than writing those detailed step by step posts about each turn in the barbari fight complete with multiple screen shots...
 

Black Angel

Arcane
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Jun 23, 2016
Messages
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Wonderland
I will consider making some videos but you guys don't need my videos to test my claims. You can test them yourselves.
The problem is, most people have already played this game 13821782178937894138461293791248978931739 times. The don't need to test it by themselves, but YOU have the burden of proving your claims.

AoD's randomness isn't that random.

38:17
 

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