So i just finished AoD

[Jason Liang]

I don't think AoD is shit. There was enough systemfag in me to fiddle around with it until I finally understood why it's actual gameplay failed overall to be fun, despite having several innovative, praise-worthy and well-designed systems.

Easily more than you I think.

I know because I remember your posts from the main thread, gleefully offering tips to others and discoveries as you played. But now because somebody else discovered a way to cheese combat using bows years after release, you say the game isn’t fun? Is this inaccurate?

Not sure if I was ever that sanguine about AoD, but in the past few years the decline has hit me hard, between PoE, Wasteland 2 and Elminage Gothic. I don't think I can ever enjoy a blobber or rtwp ever again. And mostly I've realized that being an RPG systemfag is stupid. If I want to have fun and challenging tactical combat, I can always play a pure tactical game like JA2, a true tactical rpg like FF Tactics/ HoMM3, or a tactics/ rpg hybrid like Dragonfall or ToEE. But mostly it's just pretty clear now how terrible, retarded and lazy AoD's character progression skill point/ skill check system is. Lhynn has the right idea.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I saw a video that's about how to become overpowered, but it follows a really specific process and a lot of it is more based on careful allocation to provide loopholes than pure brute force, though at a certain point it somewhat becomes that. There is another of somebody killing Agathoth in one turn, but I'm pretty sure that required a lot of reloads to get the RNGesus blessing.

Anything can be trivialised once cheesed. For every player that winged the combat, a hundred were still struggling.

- If you have trouble hitting, increase your weapon skill.
- If you have trouble staying alive, increase your defense skill.
- Wear good armor and use the best weapon you find/ buy/ craft.
- Drink potions.
- Use nets and bolas like the in-game tips tell you to.

If you do these things you wont have trouble in combat in AoD even if you are playing the game blind. That's not strategy or tactics. That's just a matter of reading, following directions and basic sense.

So make a video and prove it. If you're right, which I doubt, I'll have a cool video to show struggling players and learn something new myself. If you're wrong, maybe you'll learn something new. Either way it's a win/win.

The advice above is pure bullshit, btw. I know that because I've been helping struggling players since 2012 when the first act was released as demo. That's 6 years of observing how people play the game and what tactics they use. So far nobody has managed to replicate your "success" without cheating, hence my skepticism. Surely if your sagely advice ("oh just increase the skills and defense and be sure to get really good weapons") actually works you'll be more than happy to demonstrate it.

But mostly it's just pretty clear now how terrible, retarded and lazy AoD's character progression skill point/ skill check system is.

Yeah, yeah.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Yeah, Rance X is not grindy and the boss fights are awesome.

Don't take this personaly but every time a codexer tried to convince me that this jRPG is different from the others in some special way I got disappointed. In most cases is probably some confabulation they make to justify their weird tastes in anime characters. The fact that you are trying to be so disingenuous in your criticisms of AoD doesn't make you come across as a reliable player. I'm a very competitive guy. I can beat any game I have an interest in it. Naturally, as time passes, they all become easy to me. That doesn't mean that they are a joke, it means that I ejoyed them so much that I need to find something new to play. Criticising a game for being too easy after mastering its systems is making an involuntary compliment. Your testimony has the opposite effect you intended.

I've realized that being an RPG systemfag is stupid. If I want to have fun and challenging tactical combat, I can always play a pure tactical game like JA2, a true tactical rpg like FF Tactics/ HoMM3, or a tactics/ rpg hybrid like Dragonfall or ToEE.

They all become a joke once you know the ins and outs of the system.

But mostly it's just pretty clear now how terrible, retarded and lazy AoD's character progression skill point/ skill check system is. Lhynn has the right idea.

Lhynn butthurt about skill/stat checks in text-adventures does not follow from your criticisms to the combat system. Lhynn, the guy who thinks that AoD characters are not fun because they are beliavable instead of being retarded animu with huge tits. Lhynn, the guy who this day says that Apha Protocol is a cRPG classic despite its own creators despising the game. Again, saying that Lhynn is right in using cheat codes doesn't make you look inteligent at all. It has the opposite effect.

 

[Darth Roxor]

jason liang's cure-it-all rpg victory formula

"raise skills and use items to win"

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

"raise skills and use items to win"

wtf? preposterous, no good game I know was like this

 

[Jason Liang]

So make a video and prove it. If you're right, which I doubt, I'll have a cool video to show struggling players and learn something new myself. If you're wrong, maybe you'll learn something new. Either way it's a win/win.

The advice above is pure bullshit, btw. I know that because I've been helping struggling players since 2012 when the first act was released as demo. That's 6 years of observing how people play the game and what tactics they use. So far nobody has managed to replicate your "success" without cheating, hence my skepticism. Surely if your sagely advice ("oh just increase the skills and defense and be sure to get really good weapons") actually works you'll be more than happy to demonstrate it.

I'm still not sure if you want a video that demonstrates AoD's combat is too easy, or a video that demonstrates AoD's combat is broken.

For the former, aren't there videos on twitch that show players playing Axe murder bro? I've not seen eyestabber's iron man video, but doesn't the fact that he can iron man act 1 already demonstrate that it's too easy?

To quote our old friend Bati -
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-for-a-first-timer.113202/page-4#post-4954602

https://youtu.be/E93pikMQ9kM (final fight vs the weakened version of the boss, click at own risk)

Stats: http://i.imgur.com/pBuH05F.png

Buffs: Berserk potion (+40% dmg) and the upgraded neurostimulant to offset the THC % loss.

Weapon is Meteor Skeggox with all upgrades and sharpening stone.

Even without the potion I was hitting enemies towards the end of campaign for ~25-33 on savage hits. Crazy damage for a onehanded weapon. Fights like the Pass and Breach were a joke.

Evidence that I'm not the only one calling AoD combat a joke.

For the latter, I'm tempted. But anyone can make the videos if they wanted. The walkthroughs I posted are detailed and specific. They were meant for anyone to be able to replicate.

 

[hivemind]

im still butthrut that the hard antidas fight was removed before I managed to beat it

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

The walkthroughs I posted are pretty detailed and specific. They were meant for anyone to be able to replicate.

Look, the combat system would be a joke if anyone that never played the game before killed everything in an effortless manner, without paying any consideration to tactics or resource management. This is false. You think you can prove that is true with your walkthrough after playing the game for 100 hrs or more and knowing the game inside out. That doesn't prove the combat system is a joke, it proves that you mastered the game after investing a lot of time in it, dying, reloading, making adjustments. Big fucking difference. Don’t insult other posters' intelligence pretending this is like Skyrim. It is disingenuous.

 

[Jason Liang]

Criticising a game for being too easy after mastering its systems is making an involuntary compliment. Your testimony has the opposite effect you intended.

Interesting. But I think you have my intention wrong.

I've realized that being an RPG systemfag is stupid. If I want to have fun and challenging tactical combat, I can always play a pure tactical game like JA2, a true tactical rpg like FF Tactics/ HoMM3, or a tactics/ rpg hybrid like Dragonfall or ToEE.

They all become a joke once you know the ins and outs of the system.

First, I don't think any of the above games have combat systems as flawed as AoD's. Second, most of those games also have extra difficulty modes (and in Dragonfall's case, you can ungimp the AI yourself with a simple mod) or multiplayer (in HoMM3's case) which eventually make combat so difficult that it forces players to use actual strategy and tactics. Since AoD does not have a difficult mode, you can only get to that difficulty by gimping yourself.

The problem with AoD's combat is not that the game becomes easy once you've figured it out. The problem is that its flaws become exposed and irritating once you've figured it out.

Vince is probably getting sick of me rubbing salt on AoD every couple of months like a herpes outbreak. I'm sick of it too, but it's hard to stay silent when people recommend AoD for its tactical combat when that is uninformed and misleading. The best and most enjoyable parts of AoD is not the combat (with one exception) and its combat is not in the same ballpark as ToEE or JA2 or Rance X.

I only had issue with systemfags treating AoD's systems as if they were sacrosanct, when the game's systems ended up being its weakness rather than its strength.

 

[Althorion]

I've not seen eyestabber's iron man video, but doesn't the fact that he can iron man act 1 already demonstrate that it's too easy?

Wait, is your point that if a game can be finished, it’s too easy?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vince is probably getting sick of me rubbing salt on AoD every couple of months like a herpes outbreak. I'm sick of it too, but it's hard to stay silent when people recommend AoD for its tactical combat when that is uninformed and misleading.

Then make a video. Prove it. Show us how easy it is to play it with all combat skills set to 1 just by spamming bolas and bombs and how broken the game really is.

There's a difference between what's possible if one's autistic enough (like those Gothic 2 kill orcs without any combat skills just by timing your attacks and slowly chipping away at the orc's health bar) and an actual working strategy that most people can easily follow, without relying on cheating and endless reloading. So far you've only shown one fight and Skittles called you out on it:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/recommend-me-something.113478/page-2#post-4959086

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

First, I don't think any of the above games have combat systems as flawed as AoD's. Second, most of those games also have extra difficulty modes (and in Dragonfall's case, you can ungimp the AI yourself with a simple mod) or multiplayer (in HoMM3's case) which eventually make combat so difficult that it forces players to use actual strategy and tactics. Since AoD does not have a difficult mode, you can only get to that difficulty by gimping yourself.

They better have beause they are pure-combat games made by medium-sized studios, with real budgets. They are not the first title of five nobodies without funding and which still had to invest a significant amount of time on writing, text-adventures and scripting.

The problem with AoD's combat is not that the game becomes easy once you've figured it out. The problem is that its flaws become exposed and irritating once you've figured it out.

Nobody said the combat is perfect. I mentioned some of its flaws and limitations in a previous post and why they were expected due to lack of resources. You can see how Dungeon Rats represents a massive improvement over Age of Decadence combat simply because it allows you to control a team. The New World will be even better. That's how these things work. Complaining that it doesn't offer the same variety of a strategy game made a bigger studio is like complaining that JA2 is too linear and have poor writing. It is a misguided criticism.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

First, I don't think any of the above games have combat systems as flawed as AoD's. Second, most of those games also have extra difficulty modes (and in Dragonfall's case, you can ungimp the AI yourself with a simple mod) or multiplayer (in HoMM3's case) which eventually make combat so difficult that it forces players to use actual strategy and tactics. Since AoD does not have a difficult mode, you can only get to that difficulty by gimping yourself.

Or wait, did you just mention Dragonfall as if it was a massive improvement over AoD? Because that game is popamole on hard and shallow as it gets. You are just trying to embarass yourself, aren't you?

 

[Jason Liang]

I've not seen eyestabber's iron man video, but doesn't the fact that he can iron man act 1 already demonstrate that it's too easy?

Wait, is your point that if a game can be finished, it’s too easy?

My point is that AoD combat is not difficult enough to actually get the player to actually employ strategy and tactics.

For example the way that if you play HoMM3 you eventually end up fighting battles where the opposing forces are completely overwhelming, and you end up replaying that battle 4, 5, 10 times until eventually something clicks and you figure out x, y and z need to happen in an exact order for you to win the battle and eventually you do. That's a great feeling. That's the feeling I am chasing when I'm playing a game for its combat.

 

[Jason Liang]

Vince is probably getting sick of me rubbing salt on AoD every couple of months like a herpes outbreak. I'm sick of it too, but it's hard to stay silent when people recommend AoD for its tactical combat when that is uninformed and misleading.

Then make a video. Prove it. Show us how easy it is to play it with all combat skills set to 1 just by spamming bolas and bombs and how broken the game really is.

There's a difference between what's possible if one's autistic enough (like those Gothic 2 kill orcs without any combat skills just by timing your attacks and slowly chipping away at the orc's health bar) and an actual working strategy that most people can easily follow, without relying on cheating and endless reloading. So far you've only shown one fight and Skittles called you out on it:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/recommend-me-something.113478/page-2#post-4959086

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-for-a-first-timer.113202/page-4#post-4963709

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-for-a-first-timer.113202/page-4#post-4962908

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

For example the way that if you play HoMM3 you eventually end up fighting battles where the opposing forces are completely overwhelming, and you end up replaying that battle 4, 5, 10 times until eventually something clicks and you figure out x, y and z need to happen in an exact order for you to win the battle and eventually you do.

Just like Age of Decadence. But let me play HoMM3 for one hundred hours and trash the game afterwards pretending that this never happened to me because I'm so awesome and the game is so easy.

 

[Jason Liang]

First, I don't think any of the above games have combat systems as flawed as AoD's. Second, most of those games also have extra difficulty modes (and in Dragonfall's case, you can ungimp the AI yourself with a simple mod) or multiplayer (in HoMM3's case) which eventually make combat so difficult that it forces players to use actual strategy and tactics. Since AoD does not have a difficult mode, you can only get to that difficulty by gimping yourself.

Or wait, did you just mention Dragonfall as if it was a massive improvement over AoD? Because that game is popamole on hard and shallow as it gets. You are just trying to embarass yourself, aren't you?

If you find that you don't need to use tactics to beat Dragonfall on the hardest difficulty with ungimped AI, then try playing it with only 3 party members per mission. I guarantee you'll start needing to use tactics.

For example the way that if you play HoMM3 you eventually end up fighting battles where the opposing forces are completely overwhelming, and you end up replaying that battle 4, 5, 10 times until eventually something clicks and you figure out x, y and z need to happen in an exact order for you to win the battle and eventually you do.

Just like Age of Decadence. But let me play HoMM3 for one hundred hours and trash the game afterwards pretending that this never happened to me because I'm so awesome and the game is so easy.

No, not like Age of Decadence at all. If you play Age of Decadence normally, you wont need to use actual tactics. Again, try AoD combat with a 1/1 or 1/x and you'll understand.

 

[Black Angel]

AoD's skill check based non-combat gameplay is actually lazy shit.

What about PS:T, or Arcanum, or even Fallout, then?

Edit: I just realized Jason Liang went on another crusade against bolas, once again. Have you ever get choked by bolas in real life, Jason?

 

[Maggot]

I played Sengoku Rance because people said it actually had good gameplay but it ended up just being slow and shallow with no real positioning aside from your initial party formation. Hentai scenes weren't even good either dunno why people shill this crap.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

If you find that you don't need to use tactics to beat Dragonfall on the hardest difficulty with ungimped AI, then try playing it with only 3 party members per mission. I guarantee you'll start needing to use tactics.

Dragonfall it's a shallow linear cRPG where you have next to nothing in terms of options in combat and narrative. It's ironic that you complain about AoD combat being a joke but then argue that DF is challenging if you gimp yourself doing this or that.

No, not like Age of Decadence at all. If you play Age of Decadence normally, you wont need to use actual tactics. Again, try AoD combat with a 1/1 or 1/x and you'll understand.

According to you, based on assumptions you take out of your ass.

I played Sengoku Rance because people said it actually had good gameplay but it ended up just being slow and shallow with no real positioning aside from your initial party formation. Hentai scenes weren't even good either dunno why people shill this crap.

You need to consider that players that enjoy jRPG crap don't care about the cRPG stuff in it. They play for the animu aesthetics, characters and story. It's all make believe. Don't take them seriously when they try to push these games on you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-for-a-first-timer.113202/page-4#post-4962908

So I'm looking into what you posted there. The fight with Miltiades' thugs (not the hardest fight, mind you). No combat skills. Assassin for the training bonus, I assume (aka meta-gaming). You raised Crafting to 6 to get better gear with good bonuses. Even though your base skill value is only 10 you manage to raise the attack rating to 62 because you know what you're doing. You carefully prepare your equipment: one-handed crossbow, heavy crossbow, a longbow, and a hammer, all crafted, and use all four during the fight (aka tactics). You say that:

"Since the swordsman moves before the axeman, the swordsman moves in front of the axeman blocking him. Now the axeman has to move around the swordsman to get to us, which prevents him from attacking and then we kill him next turn. In a difficult fight, the right movement can minimize the number and quality of the swings you take, so it's important to figure out the optimum choreography."
^ which implies many attempts to find the right movement and come up with tactics that work.

Overall, I can't really see what the problem is. You can beat this fight with weapon skill 5. You managed to beat it with crafting 6 and alchemy 2. I'd call it a good alternative build. You came prepared, brought 4 weapons, used them all, noted that positioning and movement are important (i.e. you didn't stand there and click on enemies until they dropped dead). You used different attacks - fast, knockdown, arterial strike. If that's your definition of shit combat, I can live with that, but I'd still like to see that Act 1 video with you pulling this shit in every fight.

 

[hivemind]

the way I understand his autistic "point" is that the problem lies in not having to do such rigorous prep for more "traditional" combat builds with like axe/dodge

 

[Jason Liang]

There are two different major problems with AoD's combat system. One is that it has OP mechanics, mainly the knockdown/ choke mechanics, as well as dodge, as well as longbows, among others. The second problem is that the game's difficulty is too easy to actually require tactics, due to enemies in most fights having inferior equipment compared to the PC, as well as not having access to OP mechanics such as hammer knockdown, shield bash knockdown, bombs, bolas, liquid fire, potions, etc...

A player only experiences AoD's true tactical layer when they are playing a gimped 1/1 or 1/x character. A standard 4/4 character will breeze through pretty much every act 1 fight just by spamming their weapon attack, besides tossing a net on Dellar or in IG mission 1. So ironically, the more the PC is spec'd for combat, the less tactical the game becomes. When people discuss AoD combat, 99% of it is builds or equipment. Almost never do players actually discuss specific tactics.

AoD is what it is. My only lingering problem with it is that the game isn't as fun and rewarding to play as it should be, and combat is one of the main problems. Am I wrong about that? Or is the common AoD feedback "AoD's combat is pure joy!"

The first link is a walkthrough for the Bandit Camp fight with 1/1. Maybe you missed it since I put it behind a spoiler.

 

[boot]

Combat pulled the entire game together for me, I loved it

 

[hivemind]

AoD is what it is. My only lingering problem with it is that the game isn't as fun and rewarding to play as it should be, and combat is one of the main problems. Am I wrong about that?

imo you are
like I agree with you that the game doesnt have that many avenues or even needs for tactics for solely combat focused character, but I still had fun playing through multiple iterations of it with "gimped" characters, mostly like hybrids focused on getting access to specific story content while also beating hard fights(I never did 1/1 1/x stuff because it felt too arbitrary a gimp without a more coherent narrative "theme" behind it like the alternatives)

in that way I had many rewarding moments where I figured out the tactics necessary for specific fights and stuff, and there are occasional challenging encounters even for combat focused builds(the pass being one of them)

like overall you are not strictly wrong but its just a retarded complaint that relies entirely on your subjective interest in a purely tactical game that ignores both the context of what AoD is and is also way out of line with the vast majority of the playerbase