Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Riddler]

I didn't hear Prime Junta or anyone about which BGII spells you want to see in Deadfire?

For one thing I would like to have spells that provide immunities and hard counters to those.

Having everything be on a scale makes things unimpactful and makes the solution to every problem into just getting a bigger hammer rather than another tool.

This has of course partly to do with the undertuning of the game but I think it stands in general. Having clear cut-off points is good because it feels impactful when you handle them (both offensively and defensively) and it becomes easier for players to manage, who can easily tell when something works or not rather than getting into the math behind the game to find out what the breakpoints for different stats are.

I would argue that this is one of the things that makes DoS1-2 so popular. It is satisfying when you extinguish fire with a water spell. It is not very satisfying to get plus +-5 resolve (whatever the fuck that does).

 

[FreeKaner]

I agree in general magic should have more rock, paper & scissors type of approach. Asymmetric balancing with so many classes shouldn't be hard.

 

[Perkel]

No it is not because it barely changes outcome as you have 100 die to roll if something is hit or not. Which means it is 10% difference.

Thank God, the Witchers dont have math in them...

If the enemy has 50% cth and we ignore grazes since they get eaten up by DR, 10 acc delta is a ~20% relative drop in dmg output, plus the 6 percent from Dex. So, 26% damage drop and it gets better when it stacks...
Its a fucking first level spell, AOE, Int'ed up it works OK. HUGE fights take no longer than 40 seconds. Frighten lasts 20...

You have no fucking idea what the word systems means, child.

Congrats mate you just proved it is shit. Also lol delta 26%. Sure over 100 hits activated at all times. But reality is that you use it for few hits which gives you ANYTHING and you can't use it effectively for tactics as you don't have assurance your hits will actually hit in first place.

So your 26% is only when it works. If it doesn't it could be as well 0%. Only thing that for 100% works is 6% boost to speed which is again nothing.

Here is PoE2 version of same stuff:

-5 resolve
-3 power level
- cannot use hostile spell and abilities

usually it last for 20-30 seconds as base

I gather i don't need to explain how vast is the difference ? Only thing RNG about it is that you need first to hit with it after that nothing is left to chance to maybe hit something or not.

 

[FreeKaner]

There is no comparison. Afflictions and inspirations system of PoE2 is far superior to PoE's status effects.

Perkel's misunderstanding of statistics not withstanding, of course.

 

[agentorange]

Frankly fantadomat I have no idea how you played through the game reading your posts. I suspect you skipped a big chunk of it and didn't realise it.

He cheated.

 

[Parabalus]

I didn't hear Prime Junta or anyone about which BGII spells you want to see in Deadfire?

Do you intent do PoEify spells? From what you posted before

The spells Deafness, Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, Hold Undead, Protection from Normal Missiles, Greater Malison, Mislead can be modded in. Dispel Magic also probably can.

In order:

• % based failure is bad design, especially with coinflip 50%. Dumpsterfire should use interrupts, much better system
• Overpowered AF for a lvl 2 spells, negates core class feature of invis - most interesting one of the bunch though, there is nothing vs invis, but it will just be either a IWIN button for the player or extremely frustrating if used on your rogue
• Single target rank 3 MIG affliction, would be strong for a lvl 1 spell
• AoE paralyze for Vessels only, there are a bunch of Spirit/vessal spells already, precedent is there
• Bows need to be Fine or more to hit? Pointless IMO
• This is AoE affliction. Greater Malison is dumb because it's braindead, you always want to cast it - better to have specific spells for each DEF
• Can't wait to chain backstab by parking the Mislead clone at the start of the level
• Dispel Magic is replaced by supressions, or the overpowered lvl 9 Wizard spell which strips everything with no save

I didn't hear Prime Junta or anyone about which BGII spells you want to see in Deadfire?

glitterdust, wizard eye, silence/vocalize, farsight, truesight, magical protections and their counterspells...

But mostly I wish Sawyer had a bigger vision for magic than just a combat exercise. Spells that have environmental applications would have been nice to see.

• farsight/wizard eye would be cool
• frightened = silence, but it also works for martial abilities
• There are magical protections already but no counterspells, just full strips which pass the protections - ranger, wizard and Veil-piercer bow, any more?

 

[Lexx]

Yesterday I started a new PoE1 playthrough for comparison. 2 hours in and oh boy is that game different. There is SO MUCH bloated dialog description going on, I can barely make out the real dialog. In comparison, PoE2 has not even half of that. Considering this, I find the writing to be wastly improved now.

Also wow @ the graphics. Deadfire looks so much better in every area.

 

[Prime Junta]

I think it's pretty significant in itself that "is Deadfire better than BG2" is even a valid topic of conversation here.

except i also remember "is poe better than bg2" being a "valid topic of conversation" (tm) for poe1 release thread

It may have been discussed but I don't recall anyone much defending that proposition. Even Pillars 1 fans (moi, for example) put it somewhere in the middle of the pack when comparing it to IE games. "Is Pillars better than BG1?" was an actual discussion, "Is Pillars better than BG2" wasn't, really.

 

[AwesomeButton]

• % based failure is bad design, especially with coinflip 50%. Dumpsterfire should use interrupts, much better system
• Overpowered AF for a lvl 2 spells, negates core class feature of invis - most interesting one of the bunch though, there is nothing vs invis, but it will just be either a IWIN button for the player or extremely frustrating if used on your rogue
• Single target rank 3 MIG affliction, would be strong for a lvl 1 spell
• AoE paralyze for Vessels only, there are a bunch of Spirit/vessal spells already, precedent is there
• Bows need to be Fine or more to hit? Pointless IMO
• This is AoE affliction. Greater Malison is dumb because it's braindead, you always want to cast it - better to have specific spells for each DEF
• Can't wait to chain backstab by parking the Mislead clone at the start of the level
• Dispel Magic is replaced by supressions, or the overpowered lvl 9 Wizard spell which strips everything with no save

I just reviewed the spell descriptions and checked if the effects can be reproduced in Deadfire. Haven't thought about balance at all.

BTW, I'm watching the archived stream and Josh's response to the "Free DLC romance Eothas, make it happen!" was golden.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The magic is quite subjective. Both BGII and Deadfire have a comparable amount of spells and different logic for their implementation. I like Deadfire more because of the unique mechanics based around spellcasting, which make Chanters and Ciphers very fun to play.

The lack of special abilities for non-spellcaster classes is a huge negative when comparing Baldurs Gate to Deadfire. Playing a melee class is so boring in Baldurs Gate, whereas there's actually something to make it interesting in Deadfire.

 

[Prime Junta]

I didn't hear Prime Junta or anyone about which BGII spells you want to see in Deadfire?

That's not a question I can answer off the cuff bro, patience.

--- also, thing with BG2 spells wasn't even so much the individual spells as the wack ways you could use them in combination to break everything. One of my all time peak gaming moments was when I figured out a way to reliably beat Firkraag in five rounds with three characters. (And yes I know BG2 grogs have thought of even more efficient and clever ways of doing it; the point isn't that the solution itself was anything all that special; the fun was the creativity of coming up with a combination of spells and abilities from what I had available.)

Spoiler

Wizard eye would be cool though

 

[AwesomeButton]

• farsight/wizard eye would be cool

• frightened = silence, but it also works for martial abilities

• There are magical protections already but no counterspells, just full strips which pass the protections - ranger, wizard and Veil-piercer bow, any more?

I doubt farsight and wizard eye would be possible, that's why I didn't mention it. You'd need an "attack" which uncovers a part of the map, and this doesn't exist as far as I know. Making a spell work outside of combat is no problem though.

If frightened suspends the ability to cast (I didn't know that), then it would be easy to add a new "silenced" affliction to statuseffects.gamedatabundle, and then add an ability (spell) that causes that silenced affliction. Then Silence/Vocalize is doable. Great.

Counterspells to magical protections shouldn't be a problem, you just have to check how immunities and suppress afflictions work. The more interesting question is how to rebalance the protection spells so that they see more use. I don't think I've seen people's wizards self-buffing with protective spells outisde of solo playthroughs.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Whats the point of adding spells if the content is pushover trash who cant use them?

Modding in new encounters that aren’t pushover trash ala SCS... maybe?

 

[Parabalus]

• farsight/wizard eye would be cool

• frightened = silence, but it also works for martial abilities

• There are magical protections already but no counterspells, just full strips which pass the protections - ranger, wizard and Veil-piercer bow, any more?

I doubt farsight would be possible, that's why I didn't mention it. You'd need an attack which uncovers a part of the map, and this doesn't exist as far as I know. Making a spell work outside of combat is no problem though.

If frightened suspends the ability to cast (I didn't know that), then it would be easy to add a new "silenced" affliction to statuseffects.gamedatabundle, and then add an ability (spell) that causes that silenced affliction. Then Silence/Vocalize is doable. Great.

Counterspells to magical protections shouldn't be a problem, you just have to check how immunities and suppress afflictions work. The more interesting question is how to rebalance the protection spells so that they see more use. I don't think I've seen people's wizards self-buffing with protective spells outisde of solo playthroughs.

There is very little reason not to add Arcane Reflection to the AI buffing list since it casts/recovers in 0.3 sec and the AI doesn't counter it - they will cast into it without "seeing" it and get destroyed. If the enemy reliably casted them it'd be a big issue.

There is a hammer https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Last_Word which I think silences only spells.

My take is that JES already copied all the "easy" DnD spells, the rest of them will require more time spent thinking about the changes than on implementation. The counterspells in particular would need a rethinking of the buff/debuff system from the ground up.

 

[Mazisky]

Are they aware of the memory leak?

The game became unplayable after 2 hours, feels like playing Xcom 2 at release with 50 mods.

Restarting solve the issue.

 

[Reinhardt]

Playing a melee class is so boring in Baldurs Gate, whereas there's actually something to make it interesting in Deadfire.

Nigga, right now you just watch they auto hack and slash things in both games. I never manually used any non caster abilities in PoE 2. NEVER.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Nobody has mentioned is how much cooler the magic looks in Deadfire. Even without the difficulty, it's fun to admire the visual effects.

 

[Perkel]

Perkel's misunderstanding of statistics not withstanding, of course.

On surface it is logical to assume it that delta works fine but it falls down under microscope. Because it assumes:

1. Delta can be reliably used to measure few occurrences.
2. You assume every fight or event in fight have exact same importance.

1. Pattern only comes to life if you have a lot of cases. Which means that in fight where you can have 6-7 chances to hit that pattern can't be effectively recreated. IT doesn't mean that pattern isn't there but it is means you can't find that pattern in practical use over such small amount of use cases. So to see pattern you will have to have 5-6 maybe even more fights and in each about 5-7 maybe even more chances to hit. The thing here is that in one fight you can get 0 hits in other you can get all hits. In some 1 hit in others 90% of hits and so on. Which brings us to second point
2. Not every fight is equal. Most of the time you don't actually even need to rely on this because enemies you face aren't hard to begin with. BUT you want to use it when you really need it. Which means you don't have EQUAL importance to all fights. And going by 1st point of unequal distribution creating pattern, it means that YOU CAN'T EFFECTIVELY RELY ON IT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY NEED IT.

In other words it isn't 20% damage increase. IT is 20% damage increase OVER A LOT OF CHANCES TO HIT. If you use that spell in important fight you can as well get 0% damage increase.

Secondly let us not forget that 26% by itself isn't a fucking lot to begin with.

Congrats mate you just proved it is shit.

I have only shown that you are too dumb to talk to me or asses if anything is worthwhile. Witcher is more your forte.

No mate you only shown you don't know how to apply math to real life.

 

[Reinhardt]

Still PoE 2 is a good game. I actually want to start new run after finishing previous, but knowing how many things not working right now makes it pointless.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Agree, the companions are by far the worse cast of npcs in an obsidian rpg.

The writing in the game overall doesn't bode well for obsidian.

Calling it solid is too kind.

I would say consistently low quality but serviceable. Rarely does a character say something that I'll reload to read again.

Characters on average are better grounded in the universe of the game, and I wouldn't say they feel haphazardly thrown about like in most shit tier rpgs, but they still feel like rpg trope inserts.I don't sense any ambition from their characterization or that of the factions.And the native shit with their Ekera Ekera is just cringe after a time. Only the queen seems intelligent and balances the native customs with the modernity of the setting, without coming off like some noble savage.


And that is when you're not being pestered by the weird, post-modern inanity of your companions.


Eder, aside from his odd mental regression from the first game (lacking the countenance of a war veteran) and the fact that every character seems to be telepathically aware of his farmer background, starts talking about fucking Xoti so loud that dogs started barking within 5 seconds of you meeting her.


Xoti is just an idiot who when she's not whining is giving poorly described explanations of her dreams. She is clearly in her late 20s or older but talks and thinks like a teenager.


Aloth is okay and will occasionally reference the events of the first game which I like. But the minute I start talking to him about past events, he starts discussing daddy issues. Which again, how old is he to have not squared this by now?


Teheku or the Druid manchild is some BDSM enthusiast degenerate (he has referenced this 3-4 times and shown me collar marks) who's constantly agog at mundane things and comments when adults with real goals are talking.


Maia is just an annoying teen snarky bitch whose characterization completely subverts the professional she's introduced as, with some 2000s era gag humor parrot.


Pallegina is also fucking annoying, but I forgive her because in my game I basically ruined her life by having her disobey the ducs. Still she rarely says anything that doesn't make me want to throw her overboard. Not only that but she also has some sob story from her childhood that she has unexplicably now decided to resolve after almost a lifetime of quasi-military service.


Serefan is tolerable, if only because he is a one dimensional pirate played straight. Not only that but he's basically Morte, in that he'll actually say something useful from time to time during a questline.


None of the above bodes well for the future of Obsidian, as most of the above represents the tipping point into the realm of AAA rpgs, where characters are just walking loot bags, quest dispensers, lol so quirky comic relief characters (think Moira from Fallout 3) or one dimensional plot devices.

You say the writing is at best solid and I say it is at best a vestige of F:NV and at worst a sign of things to come if Obsidian doesn't get its shit in gear and reassess their priorities.

Obsidian is not Bethesda. They can't just laugh off their buggy unfinished game while discarding one of their recognized strengths.

 

[Cyberarmy]

We just have to wait for patch 3,00

 

[FreeKaner]

It's best to wait for several balance patches. Once Sawyer announces his departure from Obsidian it's safe to play. There will also be a few mods then too I assume for optimal experience.

 

[Riddler]

The lack of special abilities for non-spellcaster classes is a huge negative when comparing Baldurs Gate to Deadfire. Playing a melee class is so boring in Baldurs Gate, whereas there's actually something to make it interesting in Deadfire.

No this is a negative change. This is a design choice that fits turnbased combat, not RTwP. The key fact here is that you don't play a melee character, you play a party of characters of different skillsets, that some characters don't have active abilities is a feature, not a bug. Are zerglings in StarCraft a bad unit because they don't have active abilities? No, to even suggest that is fucking retarded.

If the game actually was designed to play turnbased or solo like in Fallout then this would be a excellent design choice but this is a party based game. Reducing the number of characters from 6 to 5 shows that they understand that there are issues here but it is a poor band aid to a problem that requires some more extensive redesign.

Making classes more samey with tons of active abilities is not an improvement and honestly makes combat more tedious and MMO-like. They should have gone the other way and diverged classes further in how they work.

 

[FreeKaner]

You can just build your fighter completely with passive abilities and only take stances if that's what you want. They are good like that as frontliners anyhow.

 

[Riddler]

Are they aware of the memory leak?

The game became unplayable after 2 hours, feels like playing Xcom 2 at release with 50 mods.

Restarting solve the issue.

Yeah, I had a few similar memory leak issues. The weirdest one though was that suddenly my graphics card was running at 100% capacity for the first time ever when the baseline for even Witcher 3 was something like 50-60%