People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

[Puteo]

You're saying Guido didn't have much of an impact, and yet that the product would have been better without his involvement. Which is it?

Why not both?

 

[Chris Avellone]

You're saying Guido didn't have much of an impact, and yet that the product would have been better without his involvement. Which is it?

He definitely had an impact on the game's marketing, I won't argue that. As I've said before, I do think that adversely affected the game's reception when a better thing to do was mirror the marketing of the IE games (cover symbols), which were doing very well and both used the same engine, elements of the rule set, same genre, etc.

It was also a little frustrating (and this wasn't on Guido) that when the game was released, one of the immediate reactions from the public was "why did you [Interplay] put the discs in the same sleeves that caused scratching on game discs before in previous projects?" I asked marketing and they said it was an oversight they had forgotten. (On launch day, the last thing you want to hear is that a mistake that was known about was repeated, and it was distracting to the game's reception - the big problem was the fact it could damage the discs, though.)

 

[Excommunicator]

Chris Avellone Something I always wondered about was the situation regarding the PST soundtrack. It's fairly well known that Lustmord was the original pick for the soundtrack (and did the music in the original trailer) but later was replaced with Mark Morgan at the last minute for unknown reasons (I do remember some rumours of nepotism being at play here).

The Codex made contact with Lustmord a few years back to try and get a hold of the soundtrack and he still has the original material but he wouldn't release it without being compensated. The problem was Lustmord still sounded somewhat disappointed/bitter about whatever transpired back then.

Any light you can shed on this?

 

[Big Wrangle]

If by some miracle Bernie Sanders voters like Sawyer managed to convince the government to interfer in game design with demands, publishers would simply move to another country where these regulations are not enforced. This would also lead inevitably to a complete erosion of work ethics. Imagine all those self-entitled snowflakes fresh out of University of Commiefornia threatening to sue you if you fix their work again. But hey, as long as you think inside an utopia you can fantasize all you want, because your fantasy is always better than the reality. I'm still laughing at Sanders enforcing wage increase on McDonalds only to see them to replacing their employees by machines. That's great, isn't? You want to come across as the paladin of the opressed and you get them fired. But that's communists for you. They are always fucking the people they are supposed to protect and ruining the economy.

I agree with that; my reply was mostly for the sake of Chris' argument. If burnt out veterans can speak about the general condition, so can one that was screwed over and felt like spilling the beans at a time. But yes, ideas are simply that, ideas; once we start applying it to the practical field, it's a whole new can of worms.

 

[Fred]

I see Chris Avellone is posting here, so I take the opportunity to say thank you for Planescape Torment, when the game was released I was at a "lan" (in reality I brought my PC at a friend's place to play broodwar and quake 3), and we ended up playing Torment from Friday afternoon to Sunday evening and we both have a very fond memory of that weekend.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

The industry the industry. Hes shitting at Obsidian thats all. And only at people that where over him in the hierarchy at the time. Thats laughable. I didn't liked a few of my bosses either but I didn't painted it on the street or fucked it in the throats of my following cult.

"The industry (is?) the industry".
It's this type of excuse that enable's employee hell.

"He's shitting at Obsidian, that's all".
No, he's using a tactic that isn't accessible to the developers at Obsidian. They could go down the Union route, but that create's a much more extrinsically motivated power-play between employee and manager (where both sides are constantly balancing the exact job requirement vs the consequences from each other). If the managers's were intrinsically motivated and took responsibility for their employees (to a basic extent) it wouldn't have gotten to this stage in the first place, and would have promoted an environment that benefits from creative employees.

"And only at people that were over him in the hierachy at the time".
He was one of the founder/partner's. Even if they were above him, does that mean an employee is incapable of analysing incompetence in people that outrank them?.

"That's laughable"
No - it's ethical. He's in a unique position to improve developer life at Obsidian, his accusations can be cross-referenced and it's all from his own experience, so he isn't putting anyone currently at Obsidian at risk from being accused of being a whistlblower. If anything the risk is on him.

"I didn't like a few of my bosses either..."
Bet they loved you. Just kidding, unlikeable and competant managers can be worked with if you're professional enough. Unlikeable and incompetant managers just create an environment where everyone is ice skating uphill, and if you don't act, everyone eventually burn's out and it's all south from there. Crap analogy, but you get the idea.

"...or fucked it into the throat's of my following and/or cult".
I'm sure some Codexians have a blow-up doll of MCA hidden away somewhere to recreate this example of your's, but for me I'd say - is it wrong to hold his work up as the standard? A standard that has yet to be equalled. You could make the argument (I don't know the figures, let's assume) POE 1&2 will/has sold more unit's than PS:T, so they're the better games and we're all grognards' holding onto the past - and everyone's gonna boycott Obsidian because management were meanie to the idol of CRPG's.
But it wasn't a cult that Kickstarted POE,W2,TTON. It was fans who knew where the talent was. Now the talent is dispersed again, so everyone will prob just buy titles in a GOG sale. And you can blame crap Obsidian management for that. Or POE2 is the new standard and let the past die, kill it if you have to - because people need jobs or something...well anyone who think's that would probably get along well with a manager who want's an ex-employee to sign a contract preventing them from making a living from their talent.

Also, a cult following, or addicted gamer, is the person who argues to support a gaming company for any reason (like we need to show the industry we want traditional RPG's) when that company has screwed itself out of the talent that inspired it's reputation/following in the first place.

Bet nobody's gonna read this now 'cause it's too long. Edited: spelling

Volourn? Is that you?

 

[CyberWhale]

Guido strikes me as someone who's suffering from a mild form of megalomania and paranoia, but even tho PS:T cover perhaps wasn't the best choice from a marketing standpoint, I still consider it not only unique but good from an artistic standpoint as well.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I agree with that; my reply was mostly for the sake of Chris' argument. If burnt out veterans can speak about the general condition, so can one that was screwed over and felt like spilling the beans at a time. But yes, ideas are simply that, ideas; once we start applying it to the practical field, it's a whole new can of worms.

The developers that are tired of bad work environment should open their own studios and be a boss. It doesn’t matter if they will make deals and have other responsibilities. That’s a small price to pay in order to avoid mediocre individuals sucking out the life of their work. This “I don’t want to be a boss because I’m a creative guy” mentality is holding them back. It’s not as if they would need to be a CEO of a multinational. If Feargus did it, how hard can that be?

 

[MRY]

In my general decades-long lag behind Current Year culture, I only just saw The Room and The Disaster Artist, and so as a result I sort of picture Henkel and Avellone's interactions on PS:T as having a Tommy Wiseau / Greg Sestero vibe to them.

Spoiler

 

[Elwro]

Also, you all should read The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks

 

[Chris Avellone]

No one I know that met you complained about your voice, one of my friends in London said that he noticed immediately that you had severe hearing problems because of the way you talk, but that's it. Just change your line of work from MC to DJ, and you'll be settled for life. <3

I'm partially deaf/hard of hearing (which I blame on loud music when I was younger), so your friend was correct. I didn't draw a correlation to my voice, but that also makes sense.

Chris Avellone Something I always wondered about was the situation regarding the PST soundtrack. It's fairly well known that Lustmord was the original pick for the soundtrack (and did the music in the original trailer) but later was replaced with Mark Morgan at the last minute for unknown reasons (I do remember some rumours of nepotism being at play here).

The Codex made contact with Lustmord a few years back to try and get a hold of the soundtrack and he still has the original material but he wouldn't release it without being compensated. The problem was Lustmord still sounded somewhat disappointed/bitter about whatever transpired back then.

Any light you can shed on this?

That I don't know much about, I'm sorry. I will say Mark had a pretty amazing turnaround time for the short amount of time he had to do the soundtrack, and I did like his work on Fallout 2. (Edit: And Torment, in case the absence of the mention could be misconstrued as I didn't like it.)

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It doesn’t matter if they will make deals and have other responsibilities. That’s a small price to pay in order to avoid mediocre individuals sucking out the life of their work.

 

[Latro]

As I've said before, I do think that adversely affected the game's reception when a better thing to do was mirror the marketing of the IE games (cover symbols), which were doing very well and both used the same engine, elements of the rule set, same genre, etc

I would actually disagree with you there, the Guido cover was actually very memorable and really stood out. I don't think the emphasis on the Nameless One on the cover was really misleading since it's all about him.

too bad guido doesn't look all cool and withered irl

 

[AureliusMMXII]

Also, you all should read The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks

Why?

 

[Chris Avellone]

I would actually disagree with you there, the Guido cover was actually very memorable and really stood out. I don't think the emphasis on the Nameless One on the cover was really misleading since it's all about him.

too bad guido doesn't look all cool and withered irl

It definitely stood out (it's why marketing chose the orange, in fact), and I don't think it was misleading at all, you're correct. However, while it did catch the eye, I'm not sure it helped the sales vs. the symbol-based cover, if that makes any sense. I freely admit I could be wrong, though.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

How much impact even the best cover could have on the sales though? I mean I admit I pirated everything in those days and never picked up a game in a store until like early 2000s.

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry? It certainly isn't now, but that's digital distribution for you.

 

[Elwro]

Also, you all should read The Player of Games by Iain M. Banks

Why?

(Banks was mentioned in the original thread.)

The author has a knack for creating original villains and twisted plans a relatively normal person like me would never think of. (See also Use of Weapons.) Video games would benefit from having villains whose plans would be half as original as those from Banks' novels.

And apart from that, this is both 1) literature (content: real characters with understandable motivations; form: wide vocabulary, a flowing style which might have you reread whole paragraphs just for fun) and 2) SF (his Culture novels describe one of the few far-future utopias I for one would be glad to live in), a rare combination.

 

[Latro]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Absolutely. Diablo box-set always caught my eye.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Absolutely. Diablo box-set always caught my eye.

I absolutely love to have a great cover on the box and Diablo was certainly one of those. But did you like, wonder into a store and grab a Diablo 1 because of the cover?

 

[Latro]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Absolutely. Diablo box-set always caught my eye.

I absolutely love to have a great cover on the box and Diablo was certainly one of those. But did you like, wonder into a store and grab a Diablo 1 because of the cover?

Yes, not everyone was tuned into the net back then. I would also pick up a magazine of EGM and Computer Gaming Monthly (I think that's the name) for recommendations. Good times.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Absolutely. Diablo box-set always caught my eye.

I absolutely love to have a great cover on the box and Diablo was certainly one of those. But did you like, wonder into a store and grab a Diablo 1 because of the cover?

Yes, not everyone was tuned into the net back then. I would also pick up a magazine of EGM and Computer Gaming Monthly (I think that's the name), for recommendations. Good times.

Yeah, I did buy magazines and read the reviews and recommendations. Then I would go to a guy who was selling CDs in a dark alley from a truck. He had a list of what was in stock and then I grabed some of the stuff If I recognized it from a magazine.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Absolutely. Diablo box-set always caught my eye.

Yep. Diablo box-set and Deux Ex both grabbed my attention in actual game stores. I didn't play PS:T until years later (and because of its reputation), but I do like the cover art.

 

[norolim]

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry?

Of course, I bought Gorasul this way. At full price.

Fuck my life.

 

[AureliusMMXII]

[
(Banks was mentioned in the original thread.)

The author has a knack for creating original villains and twisted plans a relatively normal person like me would never think of. (See also Use of Weapons.) Video games would benefit from having villains whose plans would be half as original as those from Banks' novels.

And apart from that, this is both 1) literature (content: real characters with understandable motivations; form: wide vocabulary, a flowing style which might have you reread whole paragraphs just for fun) and 2) SF (his Culture novels describe one of the few far-future utopias I for one would be glad to live in), a rare combination.

Clears it up a bit. I was just skimming the thread and saw you post this. I'm very familiar with Banks' sci-fi. He's perhaps the only author I ever could have said was a "favourite" and was gutted when he died.

I actually re-read Consider Phlebas last summer, and have made it through a good chunk of Against A Dark Background recently. Re-reading them one thing I have noticed is he has a few patterns: some macabre element (e.g. the cannibals/eaters in Phlebas, the deplorable Azad 'television' channel the protagonist discovers in Player, the Chairmaker/bone thing in Weapons), a gratuitous sexual streak, and a slightly Mary Sue-ish quality to some of main characters. Nothing that ruins the writing but stops it short of becoming timeless shall we say.

That said Consider Phlebas remains one of my favourite novels - but for no real reason other than being just jolly good fun and very well written.

Banks himself said in an interview that the Culture would be his own ideal utopian future he'd wish to live in. Without derailing the thread further I recommend his non-SF work if you haven't already read any, especially The Wasp Factory (you can see where he gets this macabre streak as a feature of his writing) and The Crow Road.

 

[Chris Avellone]

How much impact even the best cover could have on the sales though? I mean I admit I pirated everything in those days and never picked up a game in a store until like early 2000s.

But going into stores and rummaging through boxes and picking up something because it had a cool cover, was that ever a thing in games industry? It certainly isn't now, but that's digital distribution for you.

It would matter far less now, for sure - back in the "old days," though, shopping in stores was a large % of how you chose what games to buy - you'd go to the local game store, see what was on the shelves, and if it interested you, you'd pick it up, check the back of the box for screenshots, then decide if it was worth it. I think the orange cover caught the eye, but it was off-putting and I didn't think it would encourage people to buy the game or take a closer look. I freely admit I could be wrong. Digital distribution has definitely changed that part of the purchasing process, although the cover art is still important and people still browse in game stores.

My point about the symbol-based cover is that for everyone who had already bought BG1 and BG2, anything similar to those games on the shelf made/distributed by the same company would likely cause a similar level of interest, if not more. But again, it's not like I have the metrics (no one does), that's just my opinion.