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RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Watch as Feargus steals that idea and makes a real game out of it.
If we learned something from this topic is that Feargus does not read game pitches from random nobodies, even those from his own studio.

Not really a pitch if you steal it and claim it as your own idea.
Bah, Feargus is more likely to look at game pitches from random nobodies than from his own staff.
But Nick is a staff member! Right?
 

Crescent Hawk

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I bet the story in POE2 will be even more boring than the first. I am falling asleep here, what happened between Icewind Dale and today? Some segments of population today just are not reading what they should and just vomit poor entertainment into each others mouths like no tomorrow. Its so apparent in most modern games. Go read the fucking Classics you idiots.
 

dragonul09

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Meanwhile Obsidian's thread started pretty tame and degenerated into retarded dumbfuckery.

And so on, and so on...

Well, to be fair, I was pretty gullible for believing Nick might be an Obsidianite (again, well-played, DU).

Still am curious on the story elements and companion arcs for Deadfire, though, and how those turned out (I've only read a few reviews, but if someone has a larger grasp, I'd love to hear their thoughts) - this isn't for the sake of snark, btw, I'm genuinely curious how it turned out compared to PoE1.

The writing is more bearable than in PoE 1, no more unnecessary descriptive text for every random peasant you meet, which let's the player to actually rest his mind to focus on the damn objective, instead of filling his head with boring and unnecessary information. The companions seem to be a little more reactive to your choices and threaten to leave the party if they don't like your actions, which helps but they didn't really impress me so far, the amateurish VO doesn't help either.
It's better than PoE in almost every department, by quite a margin but for me, the game still get's dragged down by the awful lore and the world building in general, which leads to my next question, what is your impression of the world building and lore? Don't you feel like the game was too safe, too sterile, overly linear, little to no risk taken, one may say generic? Wasn't the point of kickstarter to get away from that kind of stuff and let your imagination run wild, without the big bad publisher telling you what to do?
 
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Crescent Hawk

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If they could not make even a setting like Tyranny interesting why would fucking Pillars setting be interesting? It lacks actual mystery, its safe, mild and tame. Durance and GM where shining beacons and precisely the greater than life characters it needed more. Even the civilisations and races are boring shit. The Vailians are just black pseudo renaissance Italians. Makes me appreciate the cluster fuck that was FR.

Maybe that is something to ponder, an established setting may direct a writer to create something interesting in a setting already more elaborate by the collective. Curious about Kingmaker now, and oh man how I would love another Greyhawk game.
 
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Since I did the Gamestar interview in English, here's the original English text:

- If you could give any advice to yourself back when you were thinking about joining Obsidian as a co-founder, what would it be?

A company is its people, and you should be loyal to the people and do right by them, especially if you’re an owner. I’d like to say again that with all of the events that took place, I have no issues with the developers or the games – only upper management.

On a personal note, I’d tell myself to get expectations and goals for your position so there’s no miscommunication or false expectations. To be fair, I did ask for these repeatedly during my time there, but they weren’t given, so it was sometimes unclear what I was supposed to do. (This is why I took on specific roles on teams at Obsidian so I could [ed: get] clarity as to what I was supposed to do.)​

- It's very unusual to see a developer speaking out about a former employer this harshly and this publicly. What made you decide to go public with this story?

I had mentioned it before (on Reddit, but not in the conversations about this currently on there) – I did it as a response to someone else mentioning that I was part of upper management, I had signed an NDA, and that I had received a severance/payout.

None of this was true, so I corrected it – I didn’t have management authority, I hadn’t signed an NDA, and I received nothing when I left Obsidian. While it’s good business for a company to do this, I did feel it was unethical based on my family situation at the time, which Obsidian was aware of (I had hesitated telling them because I didn’t like sharing personal or family issues with the other owners since they didn’t often keep these things to themselves).

The same response for the same reasons became noticed when I repeated it again on RPG Codex (someone made a similar comment to the Reddit one in response to an interview I did), but again, that was correcting information that I realized people weren’t aware of. It wasn’t intended as a press release, it was intended to correct the record so people didn’t have the wrong information about how I left the company and what I had signed and what I hadn’t signed.​

- Several of the allegations you have brought against Obsidian sound like the company might have been breaking the law (not upholding contracts with you, paying family members who don't really work there, putting resources Paradox intended for Tyranny towards Pillars instead). Did you ever consider taking the company to court? You wrote you'd welcome any legal fight they brought against you.

It's up to the companies and publishers who were wronged. I will say as a developer working in that environment on two projects at once made it very difficult to get work done (I was split between Eternity and Tyranny) – and the time invested wasn’t paid back, so even if you love the project you’re working on, if you don’t get the support you need, it weakens the title – and it undermines a lot of the effort you put into it. No developer likes seeing a game they care about and worked on hurt this way.

Note that I did allow Obsidian more time to address the issues. After the departure, I asked Obsidian about the finances, the market evaluation, and more, but never received an answer to the actual questions.​

- Can you give any more details on how the deownering process worked? It sounds like it was surprisingly easy for Obsidian to strip an owner and co-founder of his rights without compensation, didn't you have any sort of protection or leverage in your initial contract?

There was no leverage – there were five owners, and I was among the two who had the least shares. The other owners never spoke to me about the issue, it was all done through Feargus, and championed by Feargus.​

- How long would the separation agreement have prevented you from working on RPGs or discussing Obsidian? Would it have lasted indefinitely?

For that, you’d need to get the contract from Obsidian – the separation agreement I was given told me I had ten days to sign it or forfeit any remaining rights I had.

Since my primary source of income I need to live involves writing for RPGs (although the non-compete was broader than that), it would have removed my ability to work which made my family situation even worse. The agreement did have a very broad (universal-wording) NDA that applied to most everything Obsidian and the owners had ever been involved in, even companies I didn’t have any insight into (Dark Rock Industries, Fig, Zero Radius, all of which Feargus was involved with) – and I was worried that if anything happened or came to light about Obsidian or any of these companies (harassment, tax issues, illegal documentation), that I would not be allowed to speak up about it, which did concern me a great deal.

Also, on a personal note, while the separation agreement was pretty brutal in its terms, the wording of the NDA was worse. I did realize that even if the other issues were sorted out (doubtful), that the NDA would mean I would technically be silenced and beholden to Feargus and the owners for the rest of my life. I didn’t want them to have a hold over me any longer - I wanted to be free from them and out from under their control.​

- You have stated that you're still corresponding with developers working at Obsidian. Have any of them been in touch with you about this story? Are they supporting you, or are they angry you're attacking their studio?

Yes. It’s up to them to say something if they want, I wouldn’t want to speak for them, and I also wouldn’t ever ask them to say something – if they want to, they will. And if they do, they have my support, just as they always have.​

- Has Obsidian contacted you officially? If not, what kind of response or reaction are you expecting from them going forward?

Not at all. If they do respond, I’ll answer it. There’s many issues they can’t refute, and even more so, they even have evidence of all these things having taken place (and if they tried to hide or delete that, they would be in even more trouble). The refusal to pay back employees, especially, involved many threads with all the owners.​

- Do you fear you may be damaging not just Obsidian's management, but also the regular employees by creating negative publicity right when the studio is about to release its next major game?

I have no issues with the developers at Obsidian or their games. Good games speak for themselves.

There was no good time to bring it up, and being silent about the upper management has never helped the employees at Obsidian – Obsidian’s financial success does not translate into employee financial success nor does it translate into job security for even the hardest workers.

I had to personally let go several of the best employees we had after difficulties with publishers that resulted in layoffs that could have been prevented (and owner family members slated to be let go were often retained instead of these other employees).

It’s these practices that continually jeopardize the studio and its standing, and they should be fixed.​

- There seems to be a lot of bad blood between you and Feargus, but you still worked together for a very long time. You already knew him when you co-founded Obsidian together - did you anticipate any of these problems then? If so, what made you go ahead with Obsidian anyway?

I had thought Feargus had helped me (defending me in his role as manager) when I worked back at Interplay, and that kind of loyalty I thought should be repaid – so I did what I could to have his back, and I was happy to join him at Obsidian.

However, I later learned (from Feargus) that what I had thought was true for so many years was not true at all (I got confirmation on this), and at that point, it was increasingly harder to defend his actions or support him. The refusal to pay back employees just made the situation even worse.​

- In your 12 years at Obsidian, you worked on a whole bunch of stellar RPGs - were things behind the scenes always as bad as you described near the end? If yes, what made you stick with it for so long? If not, when did things start to turn sour for you?

Yes, sometimes worse, usually around periods where the company had layoffs. Our continual problems with publishers and project management created periods of financial desperation that translated into a difficult work environment, problems with other projects, and a lot of scrambling to keep the studio afloat.

As for why I stuck with it for so long, it’s because if you’re an owner, you should go down with the ship. Ideally, you don’t want the ship to go down at all, but you can’t simply leave the studio if it’s struggling.​

- Are you worried about burning bridges by speaking out publicly against your former employer and possibly alienating future potential employers?

No.​

- Do you think Paradox will take Obsidian to court for 'gutting' the Tyranny team, as you described it?

That’s up to them. If they or any other company does, I’ll support them. It was tough enough to work on those projects without proper resources, and I definitely felt that it hurt those titles when it happened.​

- What would be your ideal outcome from all this? Do you think you and Feargus could ever mend fences?

The ideal outcome’s happened: awareness. There’s nothing to be gained by silence except by Obsidian’s management. Leaving these practices hidden is what allows them to persist.

I firmly believe shedding some light on the issue vs. blindly ignoring it wouldn’t benefit those still working at Obsidian, upper management and developers alike.

As for mending fences - the issues I raised were all raised while I was at Obsidian, and fixing them or reaching some sort of reconciliation could have taken place before I departed – but there was no attempt by any of the owners to do so. Even the one issue that was addressed – paying back the employees – was damaged by the difficulty in getting the employee’s paychecks returned to the people who had sacrificed for us. The mere fact we had to fight to have it done showed poor character and poor ethics. And as much as I miss working with the developers, I don’t need or want to work for a company that has guiding principles like that.​
 
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FreeKaner

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This is entirely unrelated, western colonists did commit atrocities, yes. However what I am talking about is denying the natives even the capacity of bad conscience, they aren't children of a different species and are individuals with their own agenda.

I am not from west.


While we are on the topic, let us not forget the Armenian genocide. Just because you are not white, it does not give you a free pass.
Not exactly on topic, Armenians were not colonised. Also Armenian genocide is related to nationalism; a mental disease.
 
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It's been clear to me for a long time that the chances for Deadfire to be better than Kingmaker are very, very slim. However, I really never thought it had anything to do with the setting. Both of those settings leave a lot to be desired, just like Tyranny or Divinity or Dragon Age or whatever.

I would actually once more mention the Night Land, whether the original set on Earth after the Sun and all the stars are out or, alternatively, the era in which Wright's short story The Last of All Suns takes place which is basically the Big Crunch. Imagine a turn-based RPG set around the Big Crunch with eidolons of the days of yore fighting off the Ulterior Beings from the Realm of Cannot Be.

Or you could just go with black Italians.
 

FreeKaner

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Not exactly on topic, Armenians were not colonised. Also Armenian genocide is related to nationalism; a mental disease.

Yeah, because all nationalists perpetrate genocides. Nice deflection. Also, colonization is defined as something the west does, I guess?
What deflection? You didn't assert a point. You mentioned genocide and I elaborated while explaining to you it's not related.
 

ga♥

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To explain, for a long time, I thought Feargus had protected me from my early management failures back at Interplay (I definitely made some as a first lead on Torment) and watched out for me when I was under stress and working double-time on Fallout 2/Torment - and he told me as much, which I thought was a noble thing for a manager to do, so I resolved to support him as best I could because he clearly had my back.

During the last year at Obsidian, however, one of the breaking points (and I think he didn't realize how much his Interplay protection had meant to me personally) was he then told me he had actually done the exact opposite of what he said he'd done and that he hadn't done anything at all, and in fact, encouraged some of the troubles I had experienced. Other Obsidian employees have experienced similar revelations of past actions that turned out not to be true by Feargus's own admission.

It was a big shock to me, but I made sure to double-check with him to make sure I'd heard him right, then went back to my office and thought for a while. One big problem with this revelation was it was one of the reasons I'd defended him at Interplay, gone with him to Obsidian, and then defended all he'd done for there for the past 9 years... because I thought he'd stood up for me and made sacrifices for me as an employee. But he hadn't. It was like a chunk of my life had been derailed, and I felt sick about it.


The rush of emotion died in my mind. This was the end. The words he... I... were about to speak were true, but the truth was not the truth she saw. There were no lies, only cold calculations. Of *course* he wanted you to come with him, Deionarra. I understood it clearly, too clearly: He had invested too much in the poor girl to let her go.


Echo: "Of course, Deionarra. I would not have asked you to come with me if I did not want your company. You *know* how I feel about you..."


There was a cold silence in his mind, then a hissing of a thought, a response sharp and deadly, like a dagger blade. The lie came swiftly, unburdened by emotion.


Echo: "I love you, Deionarra."


And I wanted to SCREAM as I felt the lie wash over her like a RADIANCE, but it was a SHADOW of TRUTH, A SERPENT'S KISS, AND HE MEANT ME HARM AND SHE COULDN'T *SEE* I WANTED TO CALL OUT BUT SHE WAS CRYING WITH JOY EVEN AS - EVEN AS -


I cried with joy... with frustration... with joy... with despair...


The emotion washed over me, like I was drowning, DROWNING, and I needed to speak, I LONGED to speak, but I could not...and...


I screamed, screamed as I tore my hands from the stone, bloody tears rushing from my eyes, running in streams down my arms, my hands, to coat the stone. Blood! Her blood! And... I couldn't WARN her... and I couldn't stop CRYING......

:negative:


Any comment on this Chris Avellone
 

Jenkem

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An oasis of love and friendship.
Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I helped put crap in Monomyth
If only he had something substantial to say about how the gameplay is.

he basically said the story in poe1 was amazing and deadfire is bad because there is less focus on story and there is too much freedom to explore, too many side/faction quests, too open, too many quests going on at once, no quest markers on the map so he doesn't know where to go.. upset that he stumbles into areas and finishes quests by happenstance

I think at this point how you receive the game will very much be determined by what you love most about this old-school model of RPG. If you play for the tight stories, propelled down a main quest by an urge to save the day, torn away to side quests because of the personalities of your adored gang, then PoE1 met your needs splendidly. If, however, you prefer to amble, to get lost down a quest line completely separate to the main reason you’re there, to get embroiled in the politics and matters of new communities and peoples, to pick and choose and just occasionally get back to the main quest as and when, the PoE2 has this in spades.

The game has so, so many quests open at once, and makes so little effort to make clear what’s happening where and why, that I more often accidentally completed them than deliberately. You can sort quests by the order you received them, or by location, but neither is helpful. The latter especially because sometimes it sorts them by the location where you received them, not where they actually take place, other times only one of multiple locations, and often fails to include key information about where to report them back when completed. With nineteen or twenty open quests at any time, this is dreadful. And even more so when there’s no way to track missions on the map, nor even assign one as your primary focus.

I cannot believe anyone in this thread is taking John Walker seriously..
 

Elex

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I bet the story in POE2 will be even more boring than the first. I am falling asleep here, what happened between Icewind Dale and today? Some segments of population today just are not reading what they should and just vomit poor entertainment into each others mouths like no tomorrow. Its so apparent in most modern games. Go read the fucking Classics you idiots.
people that buy videogame don’t complete them. they barely start them.
 

toro

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To honor this thread I've bought PoE2 and I'm currently having ((fun))

A8E575E4AD539A853DFBB96AEBD3D135AEA73EF2


I'm the most intelligent Barbarian :)

Some remarks:
- Visuals are somewhat improved when compared to PoE1,
- If max level is 10 then I got to level 5 before leaving the first island (!?),
- Ship encounters are completely retarded (like absolute garbage),
- Writing seems to be trimmed down in quantity and quality,
- The overall story is retarded (but I don't want to spoil it).

Yeah, I'm having ((fun)) cause I'm playing a game designed by an ubermenschen. Fuck.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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This is entirely unrelated, western colonists did commit atrocities, yes. However what I am talking about is denying the natives even the capacity of bad conscience, they aren't children of a different species and are individuals with their own agenda.

I am not from west.

You're wasting your breath, or in this case, however many seconds and fractions of a calorie it took to type this.

Middle- and upper-class white Western progressives are going to rescue the world, and they aren't going to let anyone get in their way—not even vibrant and diverse people of color if they don't agree due to what must surely be internalized oppression.

The most striking example of this isn't even related to European colonialism, but to Chinese occupation of Tibet.

Holywood celebrities just cream themselves about Dalai-Lama and we're supposed to believe he is this great spiritual leader and a force for good. He has movies and documentaries made about him, picturing him as this serene philosopher, who produces timeless wisdom every time he opens his mouth.

And yet, let's ask a question: who is the most tyrannical ruler of the XX century? Was it Stalin? Hitler? Surely Mao would be a contender?

Unfortunately, all of those jokers are complete amateurs compared to good ol boy Dalai-Lama. Fucker was a God, a medieval King, and a highest ranking priest, all rolled into one person. That is the highest level of government tyranny that can even be conceived. A ruler with that much power cannot be resisted, cannot be opposed, he cannot be removed, he literally fucking owns you.

The Tibetan people were living in a feudal serfdom, one step away from slavery, 95% of population was illiterate, and those eary monks, while they weren't busy making their cute mandalas, would beat and rape and torture anyone who stepped out of line.

It's not an understatement to say that Dalai-Lama led Tibet makes North Korea look like paradise on Earth. And this is a guy for whom many westerners unironically campaign that he needs to be brought back as ruler and "save" the locals from opression.
 

Azarkon

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And yet the Codex' population of commies is still here, and lots of less polarized types to boot.
Meanwhile, as brought up before, NeoGaf for example got completely taken over by SJW nutjobs... Who used heavy handed moderation for the purpose. Most forums of note that I can think of that had some kind of connection to culture war topics ended up polarized, most often towards the "left". Comment sections on fucktons of websites are either closed entirely or disallow the opinions of one side.
Youtube comments section may be shit mostly, but all the insults etc don't seem to stop massive amounts of people from commenting there anyway.

And yet moderation very often results in exactly the one-sidedness you think is going to happen here. Or rather, the opposite kind of one-sidedness.

This is easily one of the least one-sided places on the net. That bothers some but draws others, and not just the nazis you're so worried about.

...You think the Codex isn't polarized? You should read the culture war threads on the Codex. It's the same shit, just in a different direction. The only reason it isn't as apparent is because the discussions are kept mostly contained on General Discussions, though occasionally it spills over to the CRPG forums. There hasn't been a strong liberal presence in culture war threads on the Codex since ... ever. The left leaning people hang around the CRPG forums and keep out of the General Discussion threads. People select their own environments.

Moderation isn't the same as censorship. Effective moderation is about creating compartmentalized discussions that are focused and productive. It's an instrument that can be used to advance free speech, not just destroy it. You can't have a rational discussion in the middle of a shouting match. The Codex is loosely moderated but it is moderated, I can guarantee you that.
 

Absinthe

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There was no leverage – there were five owners, and I was among the two who had the least shares. The other owners never spoke to me about the issue, it was all done through Feargus, and championed by Feargus.
I'd consult a lawyer, Chris. Ownership is ownership. They can't take your possessions away from you without a mechanism/agreement that empowers them to do so. Just because Feargus has a powerful position and threatens to remove ownership on a regular basis doesn't mean you ever signed him an agreement giving him the power to take away your property. In absence of a clear mechanism empowering him to de-owner you, what he did was illegal and you still own your shares.

Since my primary source of income I need to live involves writing for RPGs (although the non-compete was broader than that), it would have removed my ability to work which made my family situation even worse. The agreement did have a very broad (universal-wording) NDA that applied to most everything Obsidian and the owners had ever been involved in, even companies I didn’t have any insight into (Dark Rock Industries, Fig, Zero Radius, all of which Feargus was involved with) – and I was worried that if anything happened or came to light about Obsidian or any of these companies (harassment, tax issues, illegal documentation), that I would not be allowed to speak up about it, which did concern me a great deal.

Also, on a personal note, while the separation agreement was pretty brutal in its terms, the wording of the NDA was worse. I did realize that even if the other issues were sorted out (doubtful), that the NDA would mean I would technically be silenced and beholden to Feargus and the owners for the rest of my life. I didn’t want them to have a hold over me any longer - I wanted to be free from them and out from under their control.
Just so you know, an NDA like that is liable to get invalidated very easily. Courts invalidate broadly-construed NDAs all the time, and if you write an NDA that tries to seal someone's lips forever they are held to an even stricter standard than normal. I basically cannot imagine an NDA like that holding up in the court of law. Also, California has a blanket ban on non-compete clauses (and even if the company's agreement insists on resolving matters in a different state's jurisdiction, California courts don't care and will invalidate the non-compete anyway as long as everyone involved is obviously located in California) since 1872, except when entire businesses are sold, goodwill is sold (goodwill = the intangible monetary value your company has beyond its assets), and partnerships dissolved. A non-compete might've been inserted as part of the deal with you relinquishing your ownership (which is not how your de-ownering happened), but even then a non-compete that broad would've been struck down since it clearly goes beyond protecting the value of the shares transferred and instead aims to prohibit you from pursuing your profession, and CA case law (Fillpoint, LLC v. Maas) already established that as an invalid non-compete clause.
 
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Azarkon

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Yeeaaah no.

The Codex is kind of like the "others" section. Most mainstream sites are extremely welcoming of all races, religions, orientations, identities, and what have you... as long as they accept a carefully-couched liberal mode of discourse and do not express any genuinely controversial opinions. That attracts middle-of-the-road middle-class liberals, you know the kind of people who vote Macron or Hillary and like it. Then there are your stormfronts, sluthates, revlefts and what have you, which are echo chambers for particular non-mainstream subcultures.

Codexian culture OTOH finds something all those non-mainstream subcultures have in common, namely, being hated on by the polite centre. This is not a welcoming place for that polite centre. You probably won't last long if you're one of the folks who believes that the word "nigger" must never be spelled out in full, regardless of context.

I do not think any world exists where the extremes and the centre can engage in polite. constructive discourse. So I don't know if it's possible for the Codex to "improve."

Other than by bringing in more Communists of course.
And posting news about Disco Elysium.
INFINITROOOOOON!

Now try to figure out why the best CRPG discussions come from outside of the polite center.
 

Ulrox

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I hope the codex have been a good therapeutic experience for you Chris. All of that stuff is rough, and myself atleast, loved black isle and loved interplay back in the day. Have yet to see a developer who could reignite that kind of love. Those guys were my childhood and helped me out big time, ohh and so did you - your life lessons in various games and wisdom have been very helpful to me in dire times. I couldn't really ever help you out economically as I'm broke, but I can say that I think you've made a big difference for a lot of people, that extended beyond video games and into people's actual lives. Well, you and a lot of other good people. Cheers to you guys! :)
 

Azarkon

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I disagree.

To me, tolerance means tolerating someone's presence on the forum. Intolerance means either outright bans from the administration or other posters specifically targetting someone to stalk and make their life a living hell until they leave.

Tolerance does not mean tolerating someone's opinion on any specific subject. This is the nature of free speech. Any speech, however nasty, is entire within the realm of tolerance. If we start judging tolerance by how nice the target of the response to an unpopular opinion feels we'll reach the point of twitter crybabies who claim victimhood because they said something dumb and were politely disagreed with a hundred times over.

The major difference is that the former targets a poster, the latter targets the poster's opinion. I've almost never seen people on the codex targeting personally, in that even when outside the problematic topic people are targeted for their opinions. Plenty of posters with really dumbfuck, extreme, borderling troll ideas participate in totally normal civil discussions in GRPG, GG, and other subforums. This is different from other forums where posters who have once expressed an unpopular opinion are either banned or stalked mercilessly across the whole forum until they self eject. This is tolerance, the ideas are attacked and criticized, the people are left to go their own way when its over.

:what:
 

Darkzone

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Messages
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Not exactly on topic, Armenians were not colonised. Also Armenian genocide is related to nationalism; a mental disease.
Not exactly, while the last killings have been committed by the young turks, the reason is simply: Islam. No such atrocities have been made against a non turkic muslim population in the late Osmanic empire and early Turkey, but against all christians. And it would have happened also in this time in the balkans and Greece if this region wouldn't have split away from the Osmanic empire in previous century.
I recommend for you to read:
Qur'an 8:12, Qur'an 8:39, Qur'an 8:60, Qur'an 9:29, Qur'an 9:123, Qur'an 48:29, Sahih Muslim 33-, Sahih al-bukhari 6922 and etc...
 
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