RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Big Wrangle]

Chris Avellone I believe you mentioned this earlier, but what do you think of the underdog imagery many devs are lumped in? Do you believe such ideas result in people ignoring bad decisions and have criticism silenced? This is a minor example, but Witcher 3's DLC gathered acclaim for being so pro-consumer, while some argued it should have been in the game if there is no gain and is just boatant PR. If another AAA were to release a free DLC, it would be ignored at best and critcised at worst.

 

[Chris Avellone]

It's also a window into the creative process of the company he's in charge of. On the two occasions that they were finally given the chance to develop their own IP, Obsidian went with a modern military coover-based shooter and a medieval high-fantasy RPG, the two safest possible bets they could have picked. Even Tyranny, ostensibly an original idea, devolved into a chosen one narrative that railroaded the player into rebelling against the evil Kyros.

Okay, I guess I can't stop. So another issue with the books is that, at times, Feargus will inflict his story preferences on teams. When this happens, as a Creative Director it is helpful for me to try and ascertain where these story preferences came from and if necessary, argue against them, using the the same books that are upheld as shining pinnacles of inspiring storylines but yet cause brain tumors within seconds to people reading them. This was my job, and why I read these books - to use the very material to argue why we shouldn't do something that undermined the story experience.

Books do seem "minor," but in this context, it was to protect the game stories at the studio when I could. I didn't always succeed, as indicated by the DS4 example (again, the pitch failed partly b/c Square-Enix didn't want to work with us again).

Also, should probably say it on Mankind Divided: They weren't asking us to do all the content for the game, we were going to be asked to build a % of the game's levels with them, so please don't consider it as "hey, Obsidian could have done DX: MD." (Also, the writer, Mary DeMarle, Homeworld and DXHR is an amazing writer, so there wouldn't have been any need for writer resources, imo) - Anyway, as simple as the contract was, and as much as we needed income, Feargus could not get the deal signed despite how much we needed work to stay afloat.

 

[Sensuki]

One advantage in the last few years at Obsidian - is by asking for confirmation/clarification through email (after we discovered details would get fuzzy and forgotten if solely discussed), it's also there on the servers and the back-ups. And if it's not, it's legal troubles galore.

I can say that there's email threads on everything I've brought up, so I'm looking forward to someone to dispute the claims.

I work in IT, and I'm hoping you at least saved a backup of your outlook mailbox before leaving (and I know you're smart enough not to reply to this post with a 'yes' if you did)

 

[DosBuster]

Can someone here condense all of Chris Avellone's replies into a singular news post?
Infinitron

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I suppose I'll never know if Chris Avellone played the Outcast game or not now. Oh well.

 

[Infinitron]

Can someone here condense all of Chris Avellone's replies into a singular news post?
Infinitron

I might do something like that, but in the meantime you have TT1's Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CDN-5QjGGKnQa4Bycmtn3AVtb-c9UfSqPmYQhzHlaVI/edit (currently updated until IHaveHugeNick got ignored)

 

[Kev Inkline]

Can someone here condense all of Chris Avellone's replies into a singular news post?
Infinitron

I can:
Management: Bad
Artists/devs: Good

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone I believe you mentioned this earlier, but what do you think of the underdog imagery many devs are lumped in? Do you believe such ideas result in people ignoring bad decisions and have critcism silenced? This is a minor example, but Witcher 3's DLC gathered acclaim for being so pro-consumer, while some argued it should have been in the game if there is no gain and is just boatant PR. If another AAA were to release a free DLC, it would be ignored at best and critcised at worst.

Very good question, so if there's anything I'd want from this experience beyond improving conditions at Obsidian, it's getting the "aw man, we're just a plucky underdog developer who gets abused" tag removed from their company profile and replaced with "well, at least there's plucky underdog developers there who do good games." The management does a lot of shady shit, and they alienate publishers, then blame those same publishers because it makes their own missteps and mistakes look better.

Believe you me, "underdog" is a valuable currency when you're a developer, because people and players will fight for you more when they believe you're the weaker party, despite facts - they won't even believe for a second that you're at fault. Microsoft was basically screwed as soon as they signed with Obsidian for that very reason (although you could argue MS doesn't give a shit about Obsidian condemnation, but they certainly know about it and know Obsidian is broadcasting Obsidian's side of the story).

The "underdog" label is actually a legitimate hurdle for AAA developers I've worked with - once they lose the "underdog" status by doing more mainstream games or being successful, they need to be at 110% of their game or more, because none of the excuses and support an underdog for underperforming or getting "bullied" by a publisher gets applies to them anymore, and it's actually a huge sympathetic advantage - and it's one I definitely don't think upper management at Obsidian deserve. Plucky developers, sure. Vampiric and entitled upper management that gets almost all the royalties of all the games the developers make for them? No.

 

[Chris Avellone]

I might do something like that, but in the meantime you have TT1's Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CDN-5QjGGKnQa4Bycmtn3AVtb-c9UfSqPmYQhzHlaVI/edit (currently updated until IHaveHugeNick got ignored)

Please, anyone, don't let Infinitron do it - someone else do it.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Wha, that goodreads list.

 

[Chris Avellone]

I suppose I'll never know if Chris Avellone played the Outcast game or not now. Oh well.

I have not, but I played an early version of AoD and tried to give what feedback I could, although I mostly had a lot of compliments.

I want to set aside time to play the release version, which I've spoken to Vince about (I bought the full version along with the others from Iron Tower Studios - not just because of Vince, but the AoD reviews are some seriously amazing shit, he and the team should be proud).

 

[Brancaleone]

Finding people willing to volunteer for an RPG community site is always difficult

It sure seemed a lot easier 3-4 years ago, when we had so many volunteers that there was fights over the order in which to publish reviews, articles and the likes... we used to have more quality content in a month than we had this entire year.

Gotta ask yourself what happened since.

You mean when almost everybody was still gazing starry-eyed at the "infinite possibilities" of Kickstarter and at the upcoming "RPG Reinassance", as opposed to now when people have seen for themselves what the end result is?

 

[Quillon]

Believe you me, "underdog" is a valuable currency when you're a developer, because people and players will fight for you more when they believe you're the weaker party, despite facts - they won't even believe for a second that you're at fault.

So in this situation you are the underdog now; 1 man vs a studio. No doubt you ain't lying but even if you were, people would believe you more easily So when you take control of Obs, expecting 110% performance or bust.

 

[mildTea]

Hey, all, wanted to warn you I’m waiting for two things that are in the hands of other parties before I can advance the clock, and I also have some writing I need to wrap up that might require my time, so my responses might slow down over the next few days - I did try to answer and clarify what I could, and thanks for being willing to ask. (Also, I have interviews concerning this to answer as well, so I’m going to put some time into those, since they asked some very specific - but good - questions.)

If a public response happens (there hasn’t been one to me yet, even privately, although I’ve gotten a number of private messages from ex-employees, some confirming similar management practices, others expressing sympathy for the family situation, and a number of others concerning harassment/hostile workplace issues, from both men and women - if those go public, they have my support and my perspective as well), I’ll likely be back on faster.

In addition, stepping away from the upper management issue, I’m genuinely curious how PoE2’s release will go and reactions to it (I don’t mean that as a slam, again, I have no issues with the developers or the actual games), and anything that happens around that point will be lost in the noise anyway, so this is a good time to get ahead on things when I can’t do much but wait for other people's actions and future developments. If I can pop on to answer a question, I will.

You deserve a fare well and thank you song:

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I suppose I'll never know if Chris Avellone played the Outcast game or not now. Oh well.

I have not, but I played an early version of AoD and tried to give what feedback I could, although I mostly had a lot of compliments.

I want to set aside time to play the release version, which I've spoken to Vince about (I bought the full version along with the others from Iron Tower Studios - not just because of Vince, but the AoD reviews are some seriously amazing shit, he and the team should be proud).

What does Outcast have to do with AoD though?

 

[Bocian]

Feargus’ reading list is something else altogether.

The book's title made me think... especially about the latest Cleve vs. Zep Baxander antics.

 

[Grauken]

The list is so bad it makes me wonder whether this is a fake account to make him look bad, no grown man can have such bad taste

 

[Prime Junta]

Vampiric and entitled upper management that gets almost all the royalties of all the games the developers make for them? No.

ITT the agitprop writes itself.

 

[Chris Avellone]

What does Outcast have to do with AoD though?

Sorry, there were other questions about AoD I didn't quote, and I lumped them in with your answer, I should have explained.

Also, to keep that bad habit going: With regards to Disco Elysium: I did talk with Robert and his team quite a bit, they even brought me out for SXSW in 2017 (thank you guys), we did a panel together and also chatted about the game. They did mention they'd love to bring writers to the UK full-time, but with family issues, I couldn't do it, unfortunately - even if I'd like to.

That said, I love seeing where the game is going and the skill system alone is really interesting to me. They're good peeps and worth keeping an eye on.

 

[Chris Avellone]

The list is so bad it makes me wonder whether this is a fake account to make him look bad, no grown man can have such bad taste

I do worry you may be looking at a shared account, and if so, you may be seeing things his wife or children purchase, in which case, I wouldn't say anything about it. If they comment it on Goodreads, however, then that would be weird.

I didn't even think of Goodreads when I brought it up the book issue b/c I'm in my mid 40s - Feargus always passed along actual, physical books, and Goodreads wasn't really a thing at the time.

Anyway, if it might involve wife or children, I might suggest ignoring it. Although some of the books mentioned here already were definitely among the suggestions I was given to read.

 

[Bohr]

(Worst derail yet, somehow thread sails on and reaches more pleasant climes)

Thanks again for the insight Chris Avellone , hope everything goes well

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The list is so bad it makes me wonder whether this is a fake account to make him look bad, no grown man can have such bad taste

I do worry you may be looking at a shared account, and if so, you may be seeing things his wife or children purchase, in which case, I wouldn't say anything about it. If they comment it on Goodreads, however, then that would be weird.

I didn't even think of Goodreads when I brought it up the book issue b/c I'm in my mid 40s - Feargus always passed along actual, physical books, and Goodreads wasn't really a thing at the time.

Anyway, if it might involve wife or children, I might suggest ignoring it. Although some of the books mentioned here already were definitely among the suggestions I was given to read.

So that's why Feargus wanted his kids in his payroll. He was using their Goodreads recommendations for story ideas!

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Can someone direct me to the revelant thread page about this books fiasco, must have missed it somwhere between page 170 and 180 when I was making coffee.

Thanks!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

" Aging Well: Surprising Guideposts to a Happier Life from the Landmark Study of Adult Development "

Yeah, I don't think this is account run by a 13 year old.

 

[TT1]

Can someone here condense all of Chris Avellone's replies into a singular news post?
Infinitron

I might do something like that, but in the meantime you have TT1's Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CDN-5QjGGKnQa4Bycmtn3AVtb-c9UfSqPmYQhzHlaVI/edit (currently updated until IHaveHugeNick got ignored)

You all, feel free to use the document as you want. You can start from it.

I'll update everyday as soon as I arrive at home. During the day its hard to do anything there, but you can all "edit" the document (as suggestions - I'm not stupid) and add more questions and answers.