Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
That is misguided, and I don't agree with it at all, I do want "underlings"* (and sub-leads) to do their thing - and unfortunately, in my hierarchy, every superior above you in fact has the right (but arguably shouldn't do it too much otherwise you undermine the people below you) to override anyone beneath them but they should check with the lead first before requesting a change (if only to make sure they understand the whole situation - there may be a reason something they disapprove of is done a certain way).

And even people on the lowest rings of the totem pole who are told "no" by their direct boss but still consider their opinion important to make the game better, can still go above their direct boss and bring it up the chain - provided you talk to your immediate boss first about the issue clearly, otherwise you're kind of throwing them under the bus by going to their boss. I did a presentation on hierarchies (at Digital Dragons, I think?) about why I felt hierarchies were important and what I thought was to be gained by them, but it wasn't to stop people from being active or to protect underlings/create fiefdoms - it was to make responsibilities clearer across the team and empower people in all roles. Also, I felt the higher up the chain, the more focused you should be on your own ability to make things happen for the betterment of the project which a junior designer may not feel able to do.

My hierarchy is also done partially so everyone knows who to go to when there's a problem, and that people in sub-lead and lead roles know they are empowered to solve problems in their discipline by default (for example, a Lead Level Designer would know by default they should be the one setting optimization guidelines for their level designers, checking their work, and so on) if that makes sense. If roles aren't appointed, it's true that some people will simply do things, but it's much better (imo) if you give people responsibilities, goals, and then step back. If you've hired the right people, you're good to go. I know this may sound naive, but I think it's very important for momentum and saving time, especially when time is always at a premium.

* I'm using this quote only in reference to the original post for clarity - in my opinion, everyone should be contributing to the project at every level, and you need everyone to make the game happen - I prefer "developer" regardless of rank.
In my humble experience, past a certain point it's more important what kind of people you've gathered than the kind of organisational hierarchy you have in place. As I read your plan I keep coming up with ways this organisation can be abused, both by a stubborn "underling" who sours his relationships with his direct superior by going to the top floor too often, or by a manager who interferes too much with stuff he shouldn't.

It's obvious there will always be edge cases, that's not what I mean. What I mean is, firstly, that it's up to the people who have agreed on a set of rules to watch for these rules' enforcement. That should be part of the culture, ideally, but as I said this is up to the individuals. Secondly, for people both high and up the command chain to be bold enough to speak up when the rules have to be enforced, you should avoid creating conditions where someone feels/is in a dependent position. It's what you earlier described as "cowardly" - I think in large part the "keep my head down and they'll sort it out" attitude stems from people having too much on the line and trying to minimise the risk to such a degree where they become passive to the point of being useless when it comes to making decisions, including decisions which are entirely their prerogative.

How can you encourage independence both in managers and employees? IMO employees' confidence and sense of independence comes from being well paid so they have ample savings and are not wage slaves. It also comes from professional experience and pride in their own craftsmanship, which comes with the time of service. For managers, confidence comes from realistic setting of targets (whatever those targets may be with regards to the project). Instead of trying to squeeze out a promise they will cover something that will only get covered by inhuman strain, try to meet them halfway. But then again we come to the human factor - because you need well-intentioned managers who won't try to bargain too easy targets... It's an endless cycle.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
IMO you need someone in charge of projects and hierarchy to keep track of who's doing what and how they are progressing. If someone's not pulling their weight, for whatever reason, there needs to be process to sort out any problems, I know it's probably problematic in creative endeavors as creative fluids might not flow on schedule, but how else can you keep the project running on time?

In my experience, clear hierarchy is necessary to keep it clear who is responsible for what and who reports to whom, of course it doesn't always work like it's planned as there might be personality clashes and whatnot.

As I said, some hierarchy is probably inevitable. The question is how high is the structure, and how do people in it conceive of their responsibilities. Of course situations where someone isn't working out -- not pulling their weight, causing social problems, whatever -- need to be sorted out, and it's maybe a little bit utopian to expect a comrades' court to take care of it.

In my opinion a software house should be organised a bit like a carpentry workshop. Making software -- and this applies to a game just as well as any other software -- is a craft after all. You've got your master craftsman who understands the whole process. You've got your journeymen who are at least competent, possibly extremely competent in one or more specific areas as well as having at least a partial understanding of the big picture. And you've got your apprentices who range from people who are just learning the craft to a majority who's capable of working productively under supervision, to a few that are already very good at some limited areas. The journeymen mentor the apprentices and the master participates in the work, teaches the most promising journeymen personally, and breaks any ties that emerge in the work.

And of course the master and journeymen agree about who takes charge of producing whichever order is being worked on, and how the journeymen and apprentices are assigned to each of the orders. But you don't really need an Assistant Sub-Manager Of Fishtail Joins with a team of Junior Fishtail Join Engineers working in his team, just somebody who's able to make a fishtail join, and some mechanism to make him available where fishtail joins are needed.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Chris Avellone thanks for the honest opinion.

During your time there (at Obsidian) do you feel that the trend of releasing unfinished games was endorsed internally with a "release now and patch later" approach to development or was it simply down to circumstances of working with tight publisher and budgetary deadlines? I ask this because the "buggy obsidian classic" has become an accepted part of gaming culture and obsidian seems to have a track record to back that meme up.

No, it was more "release now or we won't get paid," or "release now or we don't get as much as we would if we fixed everything we thought we should." The royalties for KOTOR2 were definitely a factor in Feargus's decision for the release date, and those royalties would have only been forthcoming and as high as they were if we delivered the game with the original schedule. It was depressing, as those royalties didn't seem to help a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, and KOTOR2 definitely wasn't our finest hour.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,120
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Hey Chris, have you played King of Dragon Pass? There was an interview that George gave here a few years ago where he talked about how one of his dream games would basically be a KoDP-clone set in the Fallout universe with a heavy emphasis on C&C and faction interaction, and the player leading a group (BoS, Great Khans, Vault 13, etc.) through the Wasteland. I thought it was an amazing pitch, and when he joined inXile full-time shortly thereafter, I kept hoping he might convince Brian to let him make that game with the Wasteland license, but obviously no dice.

Don't really have a question around it, but you and George should go make that game; I'll buy it as many times as you need for it to be in the black.

One thing I've seen danced around in this thread, but not addressed explicitly (correct me if I'm wrong) is why OEI seems to have so much difficulty retaining writing talent. From my perspective, George Ziets and John Gonzales were punching miles above their competition with their work at Obsidian. Their employment retention should have been of the highest priority for the studio (obviously I don't know what the associated costs were, but George at least seems like such a mellow guy that I have a hard time imagining him asking for an exorbitant compensation package for his talent). Your posts seem to imply that it was primarily a matter of upper-management undervaluing genuine creative talent and over-exerting their own influence where it wasn't warranted. If this is the case, that is immensely sad, and makes me very glum for the future of OEI, but it also makes me wonder: what was different about MotB (and to a lesser extent F:NV)? Were Feargus and Parker just not around due to family/life stuff?
 
Last edited:

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,578
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There’s still one thing that I don’t understand. Why now contact a lawyer once he got de-ownered and got nothing out of it. It seems like a reason has to be given. There’s also the question why no compensation was paid out. I sure as hell wouldn’t take shit like that lying down. It doesn’t make sense to me that anyone would agree to that.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,239
And of course the master and journeymen agree about who takes charge of producing whichever order is being worked on, and how the journeymen and apprentices are assigned to each of the orders. But you don't really need an Assistant Sub-Manager Of Fishtail Joins with a team of Junior Fishtail Join Engineers working in his team, just somebody who's able to make a fishtail join, and some mechanism to make him available where fishtail joins are needed.

I don't know man. Sounds too fishy.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,879
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
(For some reason this doesn't seem to work with Chinese men. They immediately start looking for the top dog in the system, and once they've decided who he is, they start undermining him in order to take his position.)
Interesting story about chinese corporate culture(relayed by people at my work who sometimes cooperate closely with chinese): For almost all managerial positions, they hire two people for the same job and keep them in constant competition to try and get more/better work out of them. To keep the amount of people down in important meetings, they apparantly often divide it in two, the first part everyone is present and is essentially just a presentation of the issues. Then they'll go have lunch (or something), and only invite the people who had something useful to say during the first part of the meeting, and it's during this lunch the actual decisions will get made.

I know American companies love their hierarchies, european ones tend to be way flatter. I suspect that like the chinese, it might come down to cultural differences that make the optimal configuration different in different places.

In other words Chris might need a clear and somewhat rigid hierarchy to be at his best, whereas this would be counter productive in other places.

Also, Chris Avellone Kotor2 was one of obsidian's finest hours imo.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Hey Chris, have you played King of Dragon Pass? There was an interview that George gave here a few years ago where he talked about how one of his dream games would basically be a KoDP-clone set in the Fallout universe with a heavy emphasis on C&C and faction interaction, and the player leading a group (BoS, Great Khans, Vault 13, etc.) through the Wasteland. I thought it was an amazing pitch, and when he joined inXile full-time shortly thereafter, I kept hoping he might convince Brian to let him make that game with the Wasteland license, but obviously no dice.

Don't really have a question around it, but you and George should go make that game; I'll buy it as many times as you need for it to be in the black.

One thing I've seen danced around in this thread, but not addressed explicitly (correct me if I'm wrong) is why OEI seems to have so much difficulty retaining writing talent. From my perspective, George Ziets and John Gonzales were punching miles above their competition with their work at Obsidian. Their employment retention should have been of the highest priority for the studio (obviously I don't know what the associated costs were, but George at least seems like such a mellow guy that I have a hard time imagining him asking for an exorbitant compensation package for his talent). Your posts seem to imply that it was primarily a matter of upper-management undervaluing genuine creative talent and over-exerting their own influence where it wasn't warranted. If this is the case, that is immensely sad, and makes me very glum for the future of OEI, but it also makes me wonder: what was different about MotB (and to a lesser extend F:NV)? Were Feargus and Parker just not around due to family/life stuff?

Yes, I enjoy that game very much, and am working on something similar for the same reason: I think it's a fun style game, and I wanted to work on something like it. It was a complicated decision to say "yeah, I'm interested." No details I can provide yet, though.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
I can’t find the post, but the gist of it was “did you see yourself distancing from Obsidian with FTL, Wasteland 2, Tides, etc. and did that impact Obsidian?”

Those projects did open my eyes to other possibilities, but FTL:AE was a few weekends of work I did for free, WL2 was contracted and directly benefited Obsidian and was given guidelines determined by Feargus and I that were then broken (see below), and Tides was to be done in my own time and Feargus agreed to let me be a part of it as long as Obsidian got the tool payment – he did try to cut my personal amount for contributing in half, not realizing I’d already talked to Fargo about the amounts (I didn’t get angry about this, but I did counter his offer and told him I’d already discussed my terms without him and Brian and I had discussed a much different price for my involvement).

Wasteland 2 I was contracted out for by Obsidian, and all the money for working on that project went straight to Obsidian (this went to the company account to help with the debt, though, not the employees – for the employees, however, I did take the money I received for the All Roads graphic novel from New Vegas and donated all of it to get everyone FNV shirts even though Feargus had told me “you don't need to, you can keep the money for yourself”). I don't think people were fully aware the WL2 days were to help Obsidian with debt.

Anyway, for WL2, Feargus and I agreed on a schedule and # of days I would be an inXile based on the amount Fargo and inXile were paying for my time and involvement. However, halfway through our agreed-on schedule, Feargus ended up changing his mind and canceling the WL2 time (although I don’t know if he spoke to Brian about this – all the WL2 designers knew was that I wasn’t there anymore, and I wasn’t sure I was allowed to talk about it, since there wasn’t anything positive to say - it was pretty depressing). What was really depressing is we'd agreed on a plan, we were adhering to the plan, and even after I showed him what we agreed to, calculated it, and showed him the breakdowns of time I had spent and had left to go, it didn't matter b/c it wasn't "well, that's not how I feel today," experience all over again - he just wanted me back vs. adhering to our agreement.

Feargus didn't usually like me doing anything outside of the Obsidian roof (although he did give me permission to work by remote when needed when writing for Eternity became important, although I don't think this was communicated to the teams).
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,144
Chris Avellone maybe you've talked about this elsewhere, but were you despondent/enthusiastic/indifferent about the early-00's transition to 3D, other than it being a sort of sink-or-swim type of response to the troubles for PC-only gaming at the time? I mean in hindsight it seems like a horrendous transition, but maybe you guys were excited initially about the flexibility it would afford developers?
 

Jarpie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
6,610
Codex 2012 MCA
IMO you need someone in charge of projects and hierarchy to keep track of who's doing what and how they are progressing. If someone's not pulling their weight, for whatever reason, there needs to be process to sort out any problems, I know it's probably problematic in creative endeavors as creative fluids might not flow on schedule, but how else can you keep the project running on time?

In my experience, clear hierarchy is necessary to keep it clear who is responsible for what and who reports to whom, of course it doesn't always work like it's planned as there might be personality clashes and whatnot.

As I said, some hierarchy is probably inevitable. The question is how high is the structure, and how do people in it conceive of their responsibilities. Of course situations where someone isn't working out -- not pulling their weight, causing social problems, whatever -- need to be sorted out, and it's maybe a little bit utopian to expect a comrades' court to take care of it.

In my opinion a software house should be organised a bit like a carpentry workshop. Making software -- and this applies to a game just as well as any other software -- is a craft after all. You've got your master craftsman who understands the whole process. You've got your journeymen who are at least competent, possibly extremely competent in one or more specific areas as well as having at least a partial understanding of the big picture. And you've got your apprentices who range from people who are just learning the craft to a majority who's capable of working productively under supervision, to a few that are already very good at some limited areas. The journeymen mentor the apprentices and the master participates in the work, teaches the most promising journeymen personally, and breaks any ties that emerge in the work.

And of course the master and journeymen agree about who takes charge of producing whichever order is being worked on, and how the journeymen and apprentices are assigned to each of the orders. But you don't really need an Assistant Sub-Manager Of Fishtail Joins with a team of Junior Fishtail Join Engineers working in his team, just somebody who's able to make a fishtail join, and some mechanism to make him available where fishtail joins are needed.

Yeah, obviously, I think there is the balance (Insert Sawyer-meme in here) between very strict hierarchy and very loose organization, no matter what's the structure, the shitty people will fuck it up for everyone. If you have clear/tight hierarchy, you have to make sure that the higher ups won't get involved with the nittygritty things, a great example of this is in the finnish documentary about the rise and fall of Nokia. If you've watched it, you might remember the bit about the slogan "Connecting people", the marketing people had to give the board of directors the list of the slogans, and the board would then choose which they'll use. The marketing department put so utterly shit slogans in the list, so that the board would have only choice, Connecting People.

No matter what's the organizational structure, people in top needs to leave the professionals to do their work. Based on what Chris Avellone has said, this doesn't seem to have been case in Obsidian. Also based on my own experience, some people works best when they have clear instructions what are expected of them and some people works best when they're given loose instructions, the boss has to know which works best for his underlings. I didn't work in creative job per se, but I had three bosses in my previous work; second one was very loose one, he gave me wide berth to do my job the best way I saw fit and gave me feedback when it was necessary, the last one was always looking over our shoulders and micromanaging us all the fucking time and "driving from the back seat", which made me go crazy. The first boss was something in between, I worked best under the second boss, but some of us worked best under the last one.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
By the way, in case somebody's wondering how come I have such strong opinions on this, there's a reason.

Where I work used to be divided into two departments: development and projects. Dev worked on our base products; projects customised them for specific customers. Dev was organised on a "flat" hierarchy, and projects were organised on a traditional top-down project hierarchy.

The projects side was a constant underperforming PITA while problems on the dev side were, by comparison, pretty quickly and easily solved.

Moreover, we finally eventually ended up abolishing the division and a lot of the hierarchy on what used to be the projects side, introducing practices we had found to work well on the dev side. Things immediately started improving.

So I've seen very close up how these two different organisational principles operate on the ground. The top-down hierarchical organisation just performs much worse than the flatter bottom-up organisation in almost every measurable respect.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,803
No matter what's the organizational structure, people in top needs to leave the professionals to do their work. Based on what Chris Avellone has said, this doesn't seem to have been case in Obsidian. Also based on my own experience, some people works best when they have clear instructions what are expected of them and some people works best when they're given loose instructions, the boss has to know which works best for his underlings. I didn't work in creative job per se, but I had three bosses in my previous work; second one was very loose one, he gave me wide berth to do my job the best way I saw fit and gave me feedback when it was necessary, the last one was always looking over our shoulders and micromanaging us all the fucking time and "driving from the back seat", which made me go crazy. The first boss was something in between, I worked best under the second boss, but some of us worked best under the last one.

The problem with adapting to micro-managers is that once you get back to a less-structured environment, its a fucking pain to shift back to working like that
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
By the way, in case somebody's wondering how come I have such strong opinions on this, there's a reason.

Where I work used to be divided into two departments: development and projects. Dev worked on our base products; projects customised them for specific customers. Dev was organised on a "flat" hierarchy, and projects were organised on a traditional top-down project hierarchy.

The projects side was a constant underperforming PITA while problems on the dev side were, by comparison, pretty quickly and easily solved.

Moreover, we finally eventually ended up abolishing the division and a lot of the hierarchy on what used to be the projects side, introducing practices we had found to work well on the dev side. Things immediately started improving.

So I've seen very close up how these two different organisational principles operate on the ground. The top-down hierarchical organisation just performs much worse than the flatter bottom-up organisation in almost every measurable respect.
Yeah, it's not like you to have strong opinions.
 

Jarpie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
6,610
Codex 2012 MCA
No matter what's the organizational structure, people in top needs to leave the professionals to do their work. Based on what Chris Avellone has said, this doesn't seem to have been case in Obsidian. Also based on my own experience, some people works best when they have clear instructions what are expected of them and some people works best when they're given loose instructions, the boss has to know which works best for his underlings. I didn't work in creative job per se, but I had three bosses in my previous work; second one was very loose one, he gave me wide berth to do my job the best way I saw fit and gave me feedback when it was necessary, the last one was always looking over our shoulders and micromanaging us all the fucking time and "driving from the back seat", which made me go crazy. The first boss was something in between, I worked best under the second boss, but some of us worked best under the last one.

The problem with adapting to micro-managers is that once you get back to a less-structured environment, its a fucking pain to shift back to working like

I solved it by quitting the job, as I'd gotten way too fed up with the work anyway. Probably best decision of my life.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yes, I enjoy that game very much, and am working on something similar for the same reason: I think it's a fun style game, and I wanted to work on something like it. It was a complicated decision to say "yeah, I'm interested." No details I can provide yet, though.

Hmm, are there any other top secret projects you're working on that you could shed a teensy tiny bit of light on via this kind of analogy? Apologies in advance; this question feels inappropriate, like I'm asking a genie for infinite wishes. But, you know, if infinite wishes are on the table...
 

Mustawd

Guest
Chris Avellone, are you familiar with the premise of Project Indiana? And if so, what are your thoughts on it?

Not trying to get details, just your thoughts on it.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Chris Avellone

I recall an article where you said writing/doing work for a mod was one of the best ways for someone from the outside to break into the industry, have you personally seen any mod-folk hired at Obsidian? Did you guys actually check out the mods the applicants worked for in-depth?

Oh, and what about Twines? Not very familiar with the program, but I'm assuming you spend a few minutes checking out how it's written?

Yes. Jorge "Oscuro" (FNV, DLCs, PoE) was hired for FNV based on his mod work for Oblivion (he rewrote the Obsidian content layer in his spare time, did patch notes, re-released, etc. - all the things you do for a game release, he did on his own - and because he did it for fun on his own time and did a thorough job, we knew he'd make a great developer).

I do know there's designers at Obsidian who also reach out to modders, and we used modders' work in the past (paying or giving credit) since they've done exceptional work (the A.I. system for NWN2, for example, was provided by a modder because it was very well done).

Twines: I try to play through the whole Twine, but usually 15-20 minutes is long enough to get a feel for the person's aesthetic, word choice, response options, plot pacing, dialogue, etc. I do often ask (or make) a text export of the Twine if I can to check for spelling errors, but I don't make that the sole basis for approval/denying a candidate. In design tests, we do try to establish a limit on dialogue and page counts, as it's often very easy to see a person's writing in a few pages vs. 20 or 30 pages, and there's no need for the applicant to kill themselves doing the test. I also allow applicants with experience and game content they've worked on previously to submit that same game content (ex: a video of one of their dialogues for the dialogue section) in lieu of making something from scratch.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom