RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone Let me push back on this a bit. We could say that there's a glass half-empty or glass half-full way of looking at these things. You see Feargus roping in these big publishers and then alienating them, as with the Stormlands cancellation, and conclude that he's a fuck-up. And that's natural, because you have paid a large personal price for these cancellations.

But other people might say, hey, it's incredible that Feargus managed to get a deal to make an Xbox One exclusive in the first place, because that's something that the notorious "Bugsidian" probably wasn't really up to par for (as I'm sure you'd agree).

But here's my real question: Were you fired/forced to resign/"de-ownered"/etc from Obsidian because you refused to become a project lead?

That's a good question. A reason wasn't given at all beyond I could still work on Tyranny (which isn't firing, it's a shift of position, but obviously, still punishing).

I did get a vague comment about "no longer being a financial fit" but that was something Feargus told to other employees around the same time (this was shortly before the Pillars royalties came in, so for all I know, the studio may have been in financial trouble, but I wouldn't have known b/c it was too hard to extract the financials).

The Pillars royalties largely were coming to the owners, however, which put the move in a suspicious light.

As I said before, I don't think any owner deserved royalties for Pillars beyond maybe Darren for his Backer portal work, even as late as it was.

I didn't ask for the reason for the de-ownering, and I doubt I would have gotten one. I didn't take the position on Tyranny, as I've said, although with my finances and the family situation, it would be untrue of me to say I didn't at least think about it - but it wasn't because I wanted to continue to work there, the Tyranny offer was another leverage attempt for multiple reasons. I ultimately turned it down.

 

[Infinitron]

I didn't ask for the reason for the de-ownering, and I doubt I would have gotten one.

 

[deepfire]

I didn't ask for the reason for the de-ownering, and I doubt I would have gotten one. I didn't take the position on Tyranny, as I've said, although with my finances and the family situation, it would be untrue of me to say I didn't at least think about it - but it wasn't because I wanted to continue to work there, the Tyranny offer was another leverage attempt for multiple reasons.

This is depressing as hell.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone, the gaming press has largely ignored this thread thus far, with only TechRaptor reporting in the anglosphere. A few foreign sites have reported on it, notably GameStar. It has, however, been discussed at varying lengths on the obsidian forums, /v/, something awful, resetera, and several other smaller sites and subreddits. In the resetera thread Jason Schreier said he was looking into it but not necessarily writing an article. Some codexians have speculated that this hesitation from the press stems from journalistic integrity in not wanting to report unverified allegations, which frankly is inconsistent given their track record regarding not only allegations of impropriety within workplaces but also when it comes to leaks, or rumours, or rumours of leaks. Others here have suggested a fear of legal action or other pressure is causing the silence. Perhaps they're waiting for the resignations or Paradox response you mentioned earlier before running with it, or some form of legal action on your part.

Why do you think this is being ignored, and what message would you send to members of the media who're undoubtedly monitoring this thread?

While press have reached out to me, I don't reach out to them for a number of reasons (I was answering a comment here for clarity, not firing off to every newssite I could think of).

When the press do reach out, I do answer, but sometimes just because they're curious about some things, which I try and answer.

I think TechRaptor will have another update, along with a few others, but overall, I don't post this on my FB, Twitter, because no one there asked about it, so forwarding the info and posting it there seems inappropriate.

I am happy to answer any questions from any source when asked, however, and I am happy to support claims that may come from other quarters.

I will say there's still a lot I haven't spoken of (we may still be in the 30% territory from before), but should Obsidian respond with something untrue (I don't think they will, I think the silence is indicative of this), then I may have to answer that untruth with some additional facts.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Chris Avellone

Do you think obsidian games tend to suffer from over designing and over thinking their gameplay systems?

I'm asking this because lately I've been on a bender of console centric action adventure / rpg games, like horizon, prey, Witcher, God of War, games with simple but extremely robust gameplay systems that let the story elements shine while still providing fun experiences.

When playing PoE or Tyranny for example, it seems like obsidian tries to mess around with things that they don't need to mess around with, often to the detriment of having a fun experience for players, and telling a good story.

 

[deepfire]

I didn't ask for the reason for the de-ownering, and I doubt I would have gotten one.

Chris Avellone, this indeed provokes another question that lurked for a while -- how safe did it feel to inquire Feargus about his decisions?

I realise that the question in quote is special (the relationship was torn by the time it happened), but I think it's wrong to ignore the more general context:

1. How willing was Feargus to explain himself, in case his decision was considerably controversial (to the point he would pull rank or become otherwise defensive)?
2. How "safe" was even inquiring about it?

 

[Chris Avellone]

This wasn't the inXile one? An Obsidian Planescape kickstarter?

Yes. I even drafted a design for it (this was before Tim's idea and before Pillars).

I don't Adam and Josh were fully aware of this stage of the KS process - they came later, and I don't think they fully realized how supportive I was of a KS and that I had already done steps for one (communication at the studio wasn't reliable, as I said - and while I wouldn't have thought to loop in Josh and Adam on the Planescape KS proposal, it was equally odd they weren't told about it when they pitched doing a KS). For a long time, I got lumped in with the "owners" not wanting to do a KS, despite my blog posts and the dates of those blog posts on the forums, I was always in favor of doing one, and thought we should (it's why I tested the waters and the Obsidian website broke when I did).

One reason I said no to the Planescape KS, however, was because after I drafted the specs and sent it to Ferg as requested, it sat with him and he didn't read it for months (it wasn't long, but I think it fell off his radar, despite the fact he asked for it).

I figured that would be typical of the process, and I was already having doubts on other fronts, so when he finally did apologize and say he finally got around to reading it, I told him I wasn't comfortable being PD and that it would make more sense if we combined Tim, Josh, and I into a KS, as that would hit more notes with the backers by presenting a shared world and concept. It was also less "me" and more "us." Why not make something new?

I don't think much of Tim or I made it into the final game (this isn't a slam so please don't read into this as an attack, just a fact, and I think Tim would agree, even with his own designs), but it was successful nevertheless, and Josh deserves credit for that success, not upper management.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone, this indeed provokes another question that lurked for a while -- how safe did it feel to inquire Feargus about his decisions?

I realise that the question in quote is special (the relationship was torn by the time it happened), but I think it's wrong to ignore the more general context -- how willing was Feargus to explain himself, in case his decision was considerably controversial?

Or put it differently, how "safe" was it to ask him to explain himself?

It would have been safe to ask but likely unsafe of him to answer until I signed away the right to litigate (which I didn't).

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone

Do you think obsidian games tend to suffer from over designing and over thinking their gameplay systems?

I'm asking this because lately I've been on a bender of console centric action adventure / rpg games, like horizon, prey, Witcher, God of War, games with simple but extremely robust gameplay systems that let the story elements shine while still providing fun experiences.

When playing PoE or Tyranny for example, it seems like obsidian tries to mess around with things that they don't need to mess around with, often to the detriment of having a fun experience for players, and telling a good story.

I was discussing Witcher 3's combat system with my wife a few days ago and we were talking about how technically simple its presentation is, and yet "despite" that, it still was fun after 80+ hours (at least it was for us).

I agree I feel Pillars combat is overly complicated and the more moving parts you have, the more you have to juggle to feel right, but it is billed as a combat-focused game, and I freely admit I can't even fight an Arcanum wolf successfully, so I'd take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think inheriting the D&D spell and class systems is partly the reason for the over-complication as well (I tend to prefer the Fallout approach that I still feel allows for a lot of types of characters, and a lot of role-playing who you want to be).

 

[Dexter]

Chris Avellone, the gaming press has largely ignored this thread thus far, with only TechRaptor reporting in the anglosphere. A few foreign sites have reported on it, notably GameStar. It has, however, been discussed at varying lengths on the obsidian forums, /v/, something awful, resetera, and several other smaller sites and subreddits. In the resetera thread Jason Schreier said he was looking into it but not necessarily writing an article. Some codexians have speculated that this hesitation from the press stems from journalistic integrity in not wanting to report unverified allegations, which frankly is inconsistent given their track record regarding not only allegations of impropriety within workplaces but also when it comes to leaks, or rumours, or rumours of leaks. Others here have suggested a fear of legal action or other pressure is causing the silence. Perhaps they're waiting for the resignations or Paradox response you mentioned earlier before running with it, or some form of legal action on your part.

For that matter:

Josh did turn in his resignation more than once, and apparently (!) Feargus did threaten to fire him and Adam if PoE1 didn’t come out in March, which I never knew. (Yes, owners didn’t talk amongst themselves when they threatened to fire senior employees, apparently, because why would they – it was symptomatic of the poor communication at the studio. I also was never told when Feargus decided to move PoE1's ship date from Sept to March, he didn't mention that fact, either) I only heard about the firing threat when I read about it in Blood, Sweat, and Pixels (at least in the draft I read). I think threatening to fire Josh and Adam under any circumstances isn't a smart move, especially since Obsidian always struggled with trying to find good leads and good programmers. I don't ever think you should threaten employees like that, either.

That's a book written by Kotaku's Jason Schreier, so best to be taken with a huge grain of salt if that's the only source and not personal knowledge of it:

Feargus, it turned out, sometimes had a tactic where if he disapproves of someone or is angry at someone, he micromanages them to an excruciating degree, calls out everything he objects to (not something that’s necessarily wrong, just something he objects to), and makes it very difficult to move forward on anything.

The “I don’t care what I approved, that’s not how I feel today” management retractions would happen a lot.

Are there any specific examples for the kind of things Feargus or other higher-ups would micromanage in already released games and how/what changed because of that you could talk about?

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

I was discussing Witcher 3's combat system with my wife a few days ago and we were talking about how technically simple its presentation is, and yet "despite" that, it still was fun after 80+ hours (at least it was for us).

[...]

 

[Chris Avellone]

I think this Obsidian Planescape idea preceded that article, it's something that was discussed before even the Project Eternity Kickstarter. I'm not sure they even got as far as talking to WotC. Perhaps Chris can enlighten us.

You're right - so I equate Planescape with Torment, which is a mistake and can be confusing.

Let me rephrase:

I should have said "Torment" Kickstarter (although we were planning to call it "Last Rites," since that was the original name of the game, but we wanted to get the Torment name - see below). Sorry for the confusion.

We weren't planning on using the Planescape setting, but instead do a spiritual successor (like Numenera did).

One additional frustration (which I don't blame Fargo for in the slightest) is that Feargus knew the Torment name was coming up and could be bought, but he moved too slow and Fargo secured it first (Fargo keeps tabs on things like that). That contributed to my lack of desire to work on the KS as well - I couldn't even get my boss to take action when we needed him to, he dragged his feet when he shouldn't.

One positive for Fargo is he actually made time to talk to me about it after it happened, and I appreciated the face-to-face discussion - and I told him I certainly didn't have any hard feelings (I didn't, I never saw the property as "mine," I just saw it as a missed opportunity for Obsidian).

 

[ga♥]

Chris Avellone why not the Planescape setting?

 

[Kingston]

Any stories on Lionheart? Wasn't BIS the publisher on that? I could see the Urquhart management style contributing to the messiness of the game.

 

[Infinitron]

That reminds me - more Feargus gossip.

Back in February 9th 2015, Polygon published this interview with Feargus in which he complained about the unavailability of the D&D license: https://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/80...video-game-devs-thinks-that-tabletop-game-has

Just three days later, Sword Coast Legends, the ill-conceived D&D-licensed game from the now defunct n-Space, was announced: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=9767

Was there any connection there? What was the context for Feargus' complaints?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone why not the Planescape setting?

Even though it was a spiritual successor, if we did a KS, we'd want to do something that was new and ours (Planescape was owned by Wizards), if that makes any sense.

 

[TT1]

Let me do my question again, now that you spoke about Tyranny

Chris Avellone Tyranny belongs to Paradox. This is a game that you would like to work if Paradox wants to make a sequel and Obsidian is not involved?

I think its an amazing setting

 

[ga♥]

Even though it was a spiritual successor, if we did a KS, we'd want to do something that was new and ours (Planescape was owned by Wizards), if that makes any sense.

It makes sense... but world building is risky and many people felt POE failed to deliver on the lore side.

And the P. setting is so awesome :\ Wish if you ever going to fund a studio you would get a license for it!

 

[MajorMace]

* Getting to the end of this, "insecure" isn't quite the word, but maybe "validated" might work - overall, Feargus wanted people to respect him and his opinions - unless he had no respect for the person he was dealing with, at which point, he didn't care.

https://twitter.com/ThatKevinSmith/status/963298225657667584

 

[Chris Avellone]

That reminds me - more Feargus gossip.

Back in February 9th 2015, Polygon published this interview with Feargus in which he complained about the unavailability of the D&D license: https://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/80...video-game-devs-thinks-that-tabletop-game-has

Just three days later, Sword Coast Legends, the ill-conceived D&D-licensed game from the now defunct n-Space, was announced: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=9767

Was there any connection there? What was the context for Feargus' complaints?

The context for Feargus's complaints were Feargus.

I don't know whether he didn't like Wizard's terms or whatever or they didn't like ours, but Ferg's many attempts to get a D&D game continually failed despite the fact he really wanted to do one. He may have been asking too much, doing the wrong approach, but I honestly couldn't tell you why it kept falling apart. It didn't seem to be his decision, however.

As you point out, it apparently was possible to get the license, but not for Obsidian.

 

[Xunwael]

Even though it was a spiritual successor, if we did a KS, we'd want to do something that was new and ours (Planescape was owned by Wizards), if that makes any sense.

These IP conflicts really boggle up recent fantasy games. So many feel the need to establish their own universe, with all the fantasitis and other problems that come along with it, most important of which is forgetting chekov's gun. Games so focused on telling the story of their world they half forget how to tell the story of the game, and the audience gets bored as they skim through the game's text; filled to the brim with irrelevant proper nouns that you have no interest in whatsoever during your first introduction to the setting.

 

[Kingston]

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/lionheart-designer-diary-2/1100-2901663/

Associate producer Doug Avery talks about the upcoming role-playing game in development at Reflexive Entertainment and Black Isle Studios.

...

Now I am working again with Black Isle Studios producer Chris Parker on Lionheart.

 

[Infinitron]

Chris, do you feel that as a designer, your talents are more suited towards working with existing properties than towards creating new IPs? Or is that just reporting bias - those coincidentally being the sorts of games you've almost exclusively worked on?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Any stories on Lionheart? Wasn't BIS the publisher on that? I could see the Urquhart management style contributing to the messiness of the game.

Yeah, and like was posted, Chris Parker was on it, too, although he barely interacted with me even while I was working on it.

I worked a few months on it before forcibly assigning myself back to Van Buren (this isn't a slam on Reflexive, but I didn't think they were managed or supported well on the BIS side).

 

[2house2fly]

I don't think much of Tim or I made it into the final game (this isn't a slam so please don't read into this as an attack, just a fact, and I think Tim would agree, even with his own designs), but it was successful nevertheless, and Josh deserves credit for that success, not upper management.

Would you mind talking about why you think not much of Tim made it in? Other projects? Incompatible design styles?