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RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

TripJack

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the biggest shock came when the matter arose about paying back employees (not the owners, but our employees) who had given up their paychecks to keep Obsidian from going bankrupt. When we did start getting money in the bank again after this bleak period, however, the company's spending began accelerating again.

This made me uncomfortable, so at that time where our finances became healthy again, I brought up that since we had the means to do so, we should pay back the employees who gave up their paychecks to keep us going.

My comment was met with silence by all the owners.

I repeated the concern, but when I brought it up again, Feargus simply said, "we never promised we'd pay the employees back," as if that excused things - but paying the employees back didn’t seem like a technicality to me, this was the right thing to do.

He then said he wanted the matter dropped.
bT9vuR.jpg


i honestly can't decide what's worse - the other owners being ok with this, or that some of your employees were spineless enough to stick around despite not being paid

i mean this is basic bitch Life 101 stuff ffs if your employer ain't paying you on time you fucking walk, period
 
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2house2fly

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The best recent Bugsidian incident was the Deadfire Pack, which had some baffling bugs considering it adds:
  • a merchant with two lines of dialogue
  • nine items
A hat which confuses your allies when they heal you. An arbalest which takes longer to reload the more you upgrade it. Outfits with no tint on male characters and which don't turn invisible when you sneak, something I haven't seen in any other clothing or armour in the game in three years.

And if you need funds to get some basic legal advice, we can do a Codex fundraiser. :D
I think the guy who could live for another 200 years on what he has can do without a fundraiser

How many edits is going to take you to finish that bullet-pointed list?
I thought making it bullet pointed would humorously highlight how little the DLC adds. Not that I'm complaining about the amount of content, it was free after all, but even with that small amount they managed to mess up
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
- I asked why the Fair Market Value of the company hadn’t been adjusted in 10 years (it was still sitting around what the company’s initial value was, which was almost nothing). It turned out none of the procedures for voting on this had ever taken place according to the company’s own bylaws. So I asked we resume our own procedure and vote on having it evaluated – which was ignored, then interrupted by being de-ownered before the shares could be re-evaluated (which was also good business, but again, poor ethics). I don’t know if not doing a FMV evaluation is legal or not, but guessing it is.
Dude. Bylaws weren't followed and the value for a company doing multi-million dollar deals hadn't changed in 10 years? And you were (I'm assuming) paid out at old values?

Talk to a lawyer now. Also watch the Social Network. You're a Winkelvoss in this situation. Forget the tax shit, and the wife's unseen job. Even if you've signed something, my understanding is that you potentially have recourse here.

And if you need funds to get some basic legal advice, we can do a Codex fundraiser. :D
I was wondering why nobody commented on this on all pages of people trying to give legal advice. I assumed people ignored it because it was not breaking USA law or something.
I am glad someone finally brought this up.

Also isn't company value uses in some tax calculations or something?!
Because that issue is even more fact dependent. Specifically, we would need knowledge of Obsidian's structure, its bylaws, whatever documents Chris signed while at Obsidian, and most importantly California law.

Furthermore, filing a claim is just one step in the process. Resulting discovery and hearings can be a different beast, and what people believe is a strong case can easily be the opposite.
 
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Self-Ejected

MajorMace

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Poe was just as littered with bugs as former games, if not more.
Besides the raedric one however, which was very blatant, most of them were so discrete I'm certain a lot of people played through the game back then without realizing they had an effective +50 accuracy or something.
I remember I stopped my playthrough until the patch that fixed character sheets on reload was ready (and even then, I remember it still had a lot of bugs, just now most of them were fixed by reloading).
I also remember a streamer playing poe, like, 1 year after release, and the game went bananas after he recruited Hiravias. He had to reload and avoid the dude completely. That was in summer 2016.

Poe had a tonne of bugs at release, but most of them were invisible. Only some scrutiny over the combat log would reveal absurd numbers.

ps: Chris, you're a fucking legend my dude. Wish you the best for your future projects.
 

Sentinel

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Is the bit about Sawyer trying to quit his job multiple times new info? I think I've read that before here on the Codex.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is the bit about Sawyer trying to quit his job multiple times new info? I think I've read that before here on the Codex.

Multiple times is new, I think. We know about one time (which he's denied, however) https://kotaku.com/how-kickstarter-saved-obsidian-1716537369

For a while they debated, arguing over how it’d make them look, how much to ask for, and whether people would care enough to crowdfund one of their games. Things got heated—I’d heard a rumor that Sawyer threatened to quit in the midst of these arguments, and although he says he never actually did, he acknowledges that the situation was tense.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
The shocking thing about Chris's revelations here isn't so much that they're all new, but that they're entirely consistent with stuff that's come out in dribs and drabs before. Like Josh and Adam going ha-ha about Feargus threatening to fire them the if Pillars doesn't ship by March. That made me go WTF? then but this casts it in whole new light.

That is not good management. A manager's job is to create the conditions in which the people he manages can get their shit done, and occasionally make tough calls when tough calls need to be made. This includes reassigning or even dismissing people if they're not working out, although that really ought to be a rare and sad occasion. "Perform, or else" is shit-tier.
 

Azarkon

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This is feeling less and less like the basis for a nice revenge story and more like a pure tragedy. That one of the last great RPG studios has been so heinously mismanaged is such a fucking shame for the whole genre and all of us who love it. Presumably KOTOR 2 could’ve been released in a finished state if not for Parker, which means we wouldn’t have had to wait years for the restored content mod to transform it from a flawed gem into a masterpiece. Who knows, we might have gotten Stormlands or a truly completed Tyranny or, waaay back in the day, the very cool looking Torn.

Edit—mods, admins, oldfags: do Brian Mitsoda or George Zeits have accounts here? They might have a lot to add to the discussion.

Chris Avellone I feel like you’re on a roll here with these Obsidian management failures, so how about the last two owners, Chris Jones and Darren? Were they particularly egregious or just too spineless to stand up for competence? Or, as some of have speculated, did FU and Parker have enough shares or board seats between them to dictate policy when they were in agreement? I imagine it would be very helpful to many of your former colleagues to know exactly where the rot is spreading from.

By the same token, if Feargus and Parker were somehow forced out, would you be willing to work with Obsidian again assuming they paid you standard human stretch goal rates? Like let’s say Strauss Zelnick loves Indiana, buys the studio, and forces these douchebags into retirement?

Quick response: Darren and Jones are waiting for their payouts. Darren has said as much to me. Jones has said as much to me with his lack of action on anything.

Longer response: While Darren at least cares about games on some level, Jones doesn’t at all and has mastered the art of saying “no” to just about everything – he’d make a great technical director at a company that doesn’t make games, because he could find a way to say “no” to everything and dismiss it out of hand.

I was very surprised to see him as a lead programmer on Indiana, but not surprised to see that vanish, as Jones doesn’t tend to last long when there’s actual work to be done – he often can’t be bothered. (This was a problem as far back as KOTOR2, which I did confront him on – he also did it on Alpha Protocol before he lost interest in a few months because it was too much work.)

Jones is also one of the ones I point to in Fallout 2’s troubled development = Feargus kept trying to cater to to make sure he was all right, to make sure he was happy, to make sure he was pampered – but Jones was only biding his time so he could ditch Black Isle and switch over to Troika for more money and get a bigger payout. Meanwhile, his officemate (doing actual programming) was suffering like hell with no programming relief despite an experienced programmer sitting 5 feet away who could have helped with the Studio's workload at a time where many people were in danger of getting laid off. Jones first is the Jones' rule. He was also threatened with being de-ownered, but the difficult issue here is that I think Feargus was right to do so - he just consumes resources with no benefit to a project (at least he was for ALL the years I was working there).

Darren’s a frustrating case b/c he’s very smart, he’s more knowledgable about game best practices than most of the owners, and has empathy, but he’s so focused on getting his cash and such an abject coward and afraid of rocking the boat, that his opinions are useless because there’s no strength behind them – he caves at the first sign of resistance. He used to try and tell me what a valiant employee fighter he was. Through email. How tough he was for employee rights. Through email. I told him to his face I thought he was too afraid to raise anything that might get him in trouble.

He was at least as bad at communication and follow-up as both Feargus and Parker (probably moreso on the communication side), the biggest problem is he just seemed distracted all the time.

He was, however, approachable by a lot of employees because he came across as friendly, but he often couldn’t do anything to help things except “hey, buddy, how are you?” “Buddy, tell me more.” vs. actually, really helping someone.

Darren also spent forever on the PoE1 Backer Portal, providing further proof you shouldn’t ask an owner to do content work, it slows everything down – that’s not even a criticism, just the truth. No one seemed to absorb this.

Darren also had an amazing talent of both agreeing to Feargus’s requests (sort of) then not following them once he was out of Feargus’s radius… oftentimes when we had decided something at an owner meeting and agreed on a procedure, I noticed Darren would simply ignore it and not follow the procedure - even when someone needed it to be done.

I asked him about it (as a precursor to a larger question as to why he hadn't done something according to procedure).

And when I asked him why, he would simply say, “well, yeah, I haven’t talked to Feargus about that yet.” But we had talked. All of us. And we had agreed. In my mind, all I could think of was this person was being a blocker for no reason that made sense. And now he wasn't doing what we all agreed to until you talk... to Feargus... again?

As he was being "buddy" with me all I could think of (and then said) was: You won’t follow the procedure until you talk to him? After we talked? When is that? And that also means you won’t actually do what was decided until that vague future date? My dinosaur brain would simply say: Do it now, Darren, for fuck's sake, because you're making a mess where we already decided there wasn't one.

It was frustrating, but it was also one of those situations that because Darren was one of those who nodded and said the right things and even though he completely disregarded what Feargus told him to do, he got a pass because he acted like he was falling in line. Frankly, it was garbage. Parker did the same thing - and even said as much to our publishers as early on as KOTOR2 when diminishing Feargus's thoughts on production issues because Feargus was "out of touch and didn't understand producers or production anymore."

Jones at least had the balls to tell Feargus he was full of shit and we shouldn't do what he was saying (which quickly made him one of the most unpopular owners, because he could often argue with facts). It also made him the target of "well, you don't sound like you want to be an owner anymore" discussions, which weren't really discussions.

I will also say because Darren agrees with Feargus when pressured or frightened, that does make him very valuable when voting needs to be done, and it was good of Feargus to choose him to be one of the production triad of owners and give him a large % of shares to make that vote worthwhile.

Darren rarely, if ever, spoke to me (he was afraid to). However, while we didn’t have a good working relationship on Dark Alliance 1 back at Black Isle, I realized later on it was because Feargus never told Darren that he (Feargus) was coming into my office every other day to give advice and continual dumb changes on the story, so it required a lot of iteration, which (to my error) I didn't realize Darren couldn't be aware of because Feargus would tell him (right?), and I'm sure it surprised Darren to find me in a frustrated mood (Feargus' story iterations ranged from a wide variety of crap ideas, where you had to dig deep and wide to find the good in them - his craptastic story skills also caused a lot of problems on Dungeon Siege 3).

This overall lack of communication continued at Obsidian.

You don’t hear much about Darren, and that’s Darren's desire – he wants to stay "off the grid," he doesn’t want to run projects anymore (it's too much pressure), and he wants to be everyone’s friend while helping (almost) no one until he gets his payout, serves his time for a new master for a few years, then vanishes with his gold. I respect him for his insights, but not his character, which is weak and cowardly.

Hearing this, it makes me think, Feargus and Parker might actually be two of the better owners, unless that's not what you intended. For a company to survive, it has to get work; and I assume Feargus and Parker did help get Obsidian work, while it sounds as though Jones and Darren just didn't care at all. Of course, their management of the company itself seems rather incompetent, but they must have had a few positives to have survived for this long.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The shocking thing about Chris's revelations here isn't so much that they're all new, but that they're entirely consistent with stuff that's come out in dribs and drabs before.

Here's another thing that you might find strangely consistent in retrospect. Why has a California-based studio like Obsidian been putting up with and sometimes catering to a place like the Codex all these years? Maybe, just maybe, it's because internally their culture isn't all that different from the atmosphere here. :smug:
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
That is not good management. A manager's job is to create the conditions in which the people he manages can get their shit done, and occasionally make tough calls when tough calls need to be made. This includes reassigning or even dismissing people if they're not working out, although that really ought to be a rare and sad occasion. "Perform, or else" is shit-tier.

Most managers, in addition to being bad at everything else, are also bad at being managers.

It's important to note however that middlemen, turnkeys, no-talent hacks, middle management, bankers, real estate brokers, and other forms of human parasites must be kept employed despite their mediocrity. If not, then revolution becomes a real possibility.
 

Maculo

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The shocking thing about Chris's revelations here isn't so much that they're all new, but that they're entirely consistent with stuff that's come out in dribs and drabs before.

Here's another thing that you might find strangely consistent in retrospect. Why has a California-based studio like Obsidian been putting up with and sometimes catering to a place like the Codex all these years? Maybe, just maybe, it's because internally their culture isn't all that different than the atmosphere here. :smug:
You mean they like spinning .gif memes, debating Capitalism vs. Communism, and discussing faux legal claims and internet sleuthing?
 

Sentinel

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I don't know how the Codex would feel about Sawyer leaving Obsidian. The emotions would be complicated.
Sawyer seems like a very nice guy. If what I'm reading about Obsidian is true, I'd feel happy for him. And I'd be curious to see what his historical turn-based RPG would turn out like.
 

Nano

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Hearing this, it actually makes me think, Feargus and Parker may actually be two of the better owners, unless that's not what you intended. For a company to survive, it has to get work; and I assume Feargus and Parker did help get Obsidian work, while it sounds as though Jones and Darren just didn't care at all.
I remember Avellone saying a few pages back that if it was him calling the shots, he would've still kept some of the owners around. Before that post I assumed he was maybe talking about Darren and Jones, but now I'm not so sure which ones he was referring to.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Because that issue is even more fact dependent. Specifically, we would need knowledge of Obsidian's structure, its bylaws, whatever documents Chris signed while at Obsidian, and most importantly California law.

Furthermore, filing a claim is just one step in the process. Resulting discovery and hearings can be a different beast, and what people believe is a strong case can easily be the opposite.
Yes, just like everything involving lawyers. Most of the time the sheer cost of involving the lawyers makes *both* parties want to come to some sort of agreement - especially if it looks like it could get worse.

At this stage, some basic professional legal advice would answer a lot of those simple questions. Another 100 pages here of "I'm a lawyer on the internet" won't.
 

Maculo

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At this stage, some basic professional legal advice would answer a lot of those simple questions. Another 100 pages here of "I'm a lawyer on the internet" won't.

That's been the shared sentiment since around page 70-80, if not earlier. Multiple people, Mustawd, Prime Junta, Bester, taxalot, myself, and many more have practically said as much. It's just been a matter of Chris Avellone taking the next step. Since then, Avellone has continued to drop more bombshells, which in turn feeds more speculation.

Welcome to the "Go See a Lawyer Now" party. Our initiation standards are pretty strict though :lol:.
 
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Unwanted

Sextant

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Why would Chris do anything? The dude is living the life of dreams: presumably hot wife, money for ages, infinite booze, nice place to live, complete freedom to work on anything he wants and reject what he doesn't.

MCA has made it. Why in the world would he do anything?
Spite, hence this thread.
I think the word you are looking for is Justice.
 

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