RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[existential_vacuum]

What the actual fuck!?
Man, I'm still at page 25 and it keeps delivering.

Mr. Chris Avellone, I salute you and hope that between posting about the worst, as it seems, times in your career and life, you are having at least little bit of fun in this thread (poking fun at Infinitron) .

If not, well, at least I hope it feels good to finally shed some light on things.



No, really, what the actual fuck? Obsidian looks like an unorganized startup but with more than a decade of history; throws people under the bus and has shady deals on the side, selling crack to the kids under the guise of candy. CptMace self-ejected, MCA posts frequently and Infinitron can't handle the news delivering news without his participation. I'm confused, I'm shocked, I keep on reading. See you on page.. WHAT THE FUCK 10 MORE IN UNDER 6 HOURS?

 

[sser]

Is this dude actually posting cause I might have to log out to read this thread

 

[agris]

Is this dude actually posting cause I might have to log out to read this thread

oh, you're in for a treat.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Chris has never even said that the non-compete was for life. That's part is just Lurker King talking out of his ass while fighting his holy crusade against every company that has more than 3 employees and dares to make graphics that don't have pixels the size of donuts.

I don't know much about US law, but a non-compete for life sounds more illegal than the Holocaust.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

The more I read posts by Chris Avellone, the more it seems like some kind of sophisticated meta-trolling. He just happens to post the very things that will keep this thread boiling.

 

[AwesomeButton]

AwesomeButton

You putting all your eggs into a superficial principle considered in abstract. The problem with this “we need to listen to the other side before we jump to conclusions” principle is that in this case there is an abundance of cheap knowledge available that break the tie in favour of Avellone’s testimony. You need to see the forest from the trees.

Chris Avellone is widely known for being a sweet person and easy to deal with. This is not based on my opinions as a fan, but on countless positive remarks made by other developers that worked with him. I don’t think he is a saint, but a poisonous team member he isn’t. Unless there is a public conspiracy in his favour, you need to take this in consideration to assess the situation. If they are expelling a sweet guy like him, he is probably not the one at fault.

Chris Avellone is known not only for his past contributions and talent, but also for his impeccable work ethics. Once again, unless he forced himself into a female developer or has mood swings that made him break the board room chairs in a state of fury there is no reasonable reason to believe that the cold treatment he received was justified. No developer in full possession of his faculties would let him go.

Chris Avellone is a human stretch goal that attracted a lot of costumers to Obsidian. There are simply no reasonable explanations to expel him from the company when he represents more profit and brings more pedigree and good reputation to the studio.

Given all these known and uncontroversial facts there are no reasons to believe that Avellone’s departure was caused by his bad faith. It seems glaring and obvious that it was probably motivated by failures of character from the upper management at Obsidian, who were probably motivated by jealousy and envy. That’s the only reasonable explanation given the known facts.

My respect for Chris is not under question. Neither are my feelings for his work, which I have expressed often. However, I refuse to be biased because of them. "It seems glaring and obvious..." before the facts are in, is the beginning of the road towards a hoax.

I have no problem accepting that we'll never know for sure what exactly happened and who thought what, and felt how, when they shook hands goodbye. There are numerous occasions in history where we simply don't know what exactly happened, and all we have are different, and conflicting, accounts.

Both sides in such a competition (because leaving a company, as well as entering it, are both competitions for getting the best settlement) are acting on their assumptions of what the other side's strengths, weaknesses, and motivations are, but both are working with imperfect information, hence the result always ends up something different than either side expected or intended.

What I do have a problem with, is giving birth to myths and hoaxes. Because those are actual real people with real reputations. There is a moment beyond which we are no longer shitposting about games, but about actual individuals, and whatever you write or say, is not easy to take back.

 

[Maculo]

AwesomeButton

You putting all your eggs into a superficial principle considered in abstract. The problem with this “we need to listen to the other side before we jump to conclusions” principle is that in this case there is an abundance of cheap knowledge available that break the tie in favour of Avellone’s testimony. You need to see the forest from the trees.

Chris Avellone is widely known for being a sweet person and easy to deal with. This is not based on my opinions as a fan, but on countless positive remarks made by other developers that worked with him. I don’t think he is a saint, but a poisonous team member he isn’t. Unless there is a public conspiracy in his favour, you need to take this in consideration to assess the situation. If they are expelling a sweet guy like him, he is probably not the one at fault.

Chris Avellone is known not only for his past contributions and talent, but also for his impeccable work ethics. Once again, unless he forced himself into a female developer or has mood swings that made him break the board room chairs in a state of fury there is no reasonable reason to believe that the cold treatment he received was justified. No developer in full possession of his faculties would let him go.

Chris Avellone is a human stretch goal that attracted a lot of costumers to Obsidian. There are simply no reasonable explanations to expel him from the company when he represents more profit and brings more pedigree and good reputation to the studio.

Given all these known and uncontroversial facts there are no reasons to believe that Avellone’s departure was caused by his bad faith. It seems glaring and obvious that it was probably motivated by failures of character from the upper management at Obsidian, who were probably motivated by jealousy and envy. That’s the only reasonable explanation given the known facts.

All the points you provided certainly go to Avellone's credibility, and I do not think anyone argues against that. Even the best witness, however, can be wrong or have an inaccurate perception. Hence, I can understand AwesomeButton caution, because when it comes to accounts, I have had witnesses forget, lie, or misconstrue a situation. A person's memories or perceptions are not nearly as good and accurate as one would think, especially if there are strong emotions involved.

Obsidian has not denied or responded to the Avellone's account in an official manner, but that should not be construed as Obsidian having no argument in their favor.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Is this dude actually posting cause I might have to log out to read this thread

If you open the user
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/chris-avellone.2735/
there should be an ignore/unignore link up right near Report and Stalk.

For the record, sser also ignores TimCain. That's the 2 guys he's ignoring, MCA and Saint Cain. I'll let you judge his motives.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

AwesomeButton

You putting all your eggs into a superficial principle considered in abstract. The problem with this “we need to listen to the other side before we jump to conclusions” principle is that in this case there is an abundance of cheap knowledge available that break the tie in favour of Avellone’s testimony. You need to see the forest from the trees.

Chris Avellone is widely known for being a sweet person and easy to deal with. This is not based on my opinions as a fan, but on countless positive remarks made by other developers that worked with him. I don’t think he is a saint, but a poisonous team member he isn’t. Unless there is a public conspiracy in his favour, you need to take this in consideration to assess the situation. If they are expelling a sweet guy like him, he is probably not the one at fault.

Chris Avellone is known not only for his past contributions and talent, but also for his impeccable work ethics. Once again, unless he forced himself into a female developer or has mood swings that made him break the board room chairs in a state of fury there is no reasonable reason to believe that the cold treatment he received was justified. No developer in full possession of his faculties would let him go.

Chris Avellone is a human stretch goal that attracted a lot of costumers to Obsidian. There are simply no reasonable explanations to expel him from the company when he represents more profit and brings more pedigree and good reputation to the studio.

Given all these known and uncontroversial facts there are no reasons to believe that Avellone’s departure was caused by his bad faith. It seems glaring and obvious that it was probably motivated by failures of character from the upper management at Obsidian, who were probably motivated by jealousy and envy. That’s the only reasonable explanation given the known facts.

All the points you provided certainly go to Avellone's credibility, and I do not think anyone argues against that. Even the best witnesses, however, can be wrong or have an inaccurate perception. Hence, I can understand AwesomeButton caution, because when it comes to accounts, I have had witnesses forget, lie, or misunderstand a situation. A person's memories or perceptions are not nearly as good as one would think, especially if there are strong emotions involved.
Obsidian has not denied or responded to the Avellone's account in an official manner, but that should not be construed as Obsidian having no argument in their favor.

I think Obsidian is avoid to answer now to release Deadfire then drop the Ultimate Damage Control Bomb.. This is something i seen happening a lot back at the time people were bashing bioware for Dragon age 2.

 

[Maculo]

I think Obsidian is avoid to answer now to release Deadfire then drop the Ultimate Damage Control Bomb.. This is something i seen happening a lot back at the time people were bashing bioware for Dragon age 2.

I would not be surprised. At the same time, as much as I fangirl over Avellone, I have to accept that Obsidian may have an equally strong argument.

 

[Lexx]

At the times of the "Brother-None-gate" I thought Obsidian was different to Fargo and friends, it seems not so much... My eternal appreciation to Chris, I hope you persevere, shame it ended this way.

What's the "Brother-None-gate"? Did I miss something?


Also, just posting here so I can say I have been a part of this.

 

[Jasede]

Brother "Gas the Jews or you lose" None is a filthy traitor and that's all you need to know.

 

[Bohr]

In this case, Avellone may not give a damn about burning bridges today, but tomorrow is a different story. For example, there may be prospective employers that do not want to employ someone that will malign them publicly the moment he is dissatisfied.

I realise you're talking in hypotheticals here, but given this seems to have been going on for years (ie he didn't go public as soon as he was dissatisfied) and involves a dispute between partners rather than a regular troublesome employee, I'm not sure how applicable this is in this situation.

Anyway, as he detailed earlier, he's spent the last few years building up a wide range of contacts and contracts with a number of companies in the industry. While we were making jokes about the walking stretch goal and wondering why he didn't just focus on one game, he's been laying the groundwork to not give a fuck when it came to this point. Pretty sure he's going to be just fine.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

My respect for Chris is not under question. Neither are my feelings for his work, which I have expressed often. However, I refuse to be biased because of them. "It seems glaring and obvious..." before the facts are in, is the beginning of the road towards a hoax.

You are endorsing such absurd evidentiary standards that are impossible to maintain in a daily basis. Your system of beliefs is almost entirely funded on testimony from other people, whether we are talking about regular day-to-day basis testimony or expert testimony. You can’t justify most of your beliefs by yourself because you don’t have the expertise, so you rely on the testimony from other people. But that’s fine. Like most epistemic resources, testimony is fallible. But this doesn’t mean it is not an indispensable tool we have use to make a division of epistemic labour. There is a ton of research about testimonial knowledge to reinforce this point.

If what you know based on people’s testimony justifies Avellone’s testimony then there is no reason to doubt that. This is not being biased. This is trusting the evidence as it presents itself. Being biased in this case would be doing the opposite: ignoring the testimony with all you got because the other side is in silence. The thing is, the more you think about it, the more absurd Avellone’s exile from Obsidian looks. The only thing that could justify this is something grave, like rape. If this is the reason for their silence, then they deserve all the heat they can get, because they were covering something evil. If this is not what happened, then they don’t have good reasons to treat Avellone like that, even if they got into little fights, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Newbies and others who don't know about the Codex's past issues with inXile - just read this thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...orment-gamescom-appointment-cancelled.110327/

 

[Gakkone]

Just read this thread with 127 pages

 

[Lexx]

Ah, that one. Ofc I suffered through this back in the days. Thought there was some new drama that I missed out. Can't miss out any drama when it comes to thy olde tymes.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Also, just posting here so I can say I have been a part of this.

I reserved a seat in the front, brother. Grab some popcorn.

 

[AwesomeButton]

AwesomeButton

That is the right attitude. It is however to note that *if* they even tried to imply anything of this form, it was wrong/evil.

No doubt about that. And as I said, though this was conveniently ignored, such ruthless treatment of vulnerable employees by management is something I have witnessed myself, and is not unknown in the software development, and probably in any other industry. Kick the guy when he is on the ground is the rule by which managers and sometimes whole businesses have survived and are surviving. It happens daily.

What astonishes me is that such a cruel thing as taking advantage of a relative's illness could be the intention of someone with whom you've worked with for twenty years. Twenty years of working with someone is not a small period. It's probably more than some posters here have spent on this earth.

However little you may like each other in the final months, this has been twenty years. That's a quarter of a lifetime. At some point, you were friends with that guy, have to have been.

I think Obsidian is avoid to answer now to release Deadfire then drop the Ultimate Damage Control Bomb.. This is something i seen happening a lot back at the time people were bashing bioware for Dragon age 2.

If Obsidian make any response, it will be after Deadfire is out, I can't imagine them doing it before.

 

[Maculo]

In this case, Avellone may not give a damn about burning bridges today, but tomorrow is a different story. For example, there may be prospective employers that do not want to employ someone that will malign them publicly the moment he is dissatisfied.

I realise you're talking in hypotheticals here, but given this seems to have been going on for years (ie he didn't go public as soon as he was dissatisfied) and involves a dispute between partners rather than a regular troublesome employee, I'm not sure how applicable this is in this situation.

Anyway, as he detailed earlier, he's spent the last few years building up a wide range of contacts and contracts with a number of companies in the industry. While we were making jokes about the walking stretch goal and wondering why he didn't just focus on one game, he's been laying the groundwork to not give a fuck when it came to this point. Pretty sure he's going to be just fine.

He may do fine for years to come, but the repercussions may not become immediately apparent. A less extreme example is Avellone having to answer fan questions about this thread for years to come and unwittingly reigniting the drama again. Furthermore, I was under the impression that he is an employee now and therefore subject to the ire of an employer.

Perhaps a better choice of words on my part is "risk."

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

AwesomeButton

That is the right attitude. It is however to note that *if* they even tried to imply anything of this form, it was wrong/evil.

No doubt about that. And as I said, though this was conveniently ignored, such ruthless treatment of vulnerable employees by management is something I have witnessed myself, and is not unknown in the software development, and probably in any other industry. Kick the guy when he is on the ground is the rule by which managers and sometimes whole businesses have survived and are surviving. It happens daily.

What astonishes me is that such a cruel thing as taking advantage of a relative's illness could be the intention of someone with whom you've worked with for twenty years. Twenty years of working with someone is not a small period. It's probably more than some posters here have spent on this earth.

However little you may like each other in the final months, this has been twenty years. That's a quarter of a lifetime. At some point, you were friends with that guy, have to have been.

I think Obsidian is avoid to answer now to release Deadfire then drop the Ultimate Damage Control Bomb.. This is something i seen happening a lot back at the time people were bashing bioware for Dragon age 2.

If Obsidian make any response, it will be after Deadfire is out, I can't imagine them doing it before.

Yes i honestly agree and if like say Chris Paradox is not happy about the situation well... Seems like something rotten happened.

 

[Lockkaliber]

Newbies and others who don't know about the Codex's past issues with inXile - just read this thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...orment-gamescom-appointment-cancelled.110327/

I missed much of the MMarkland vs Fargo stuff, can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Infinitron]

Newbies and others who don't know about the Codex's past issues with inXile - just read this thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...orment-gamescom-appointment-cancelled.110327/

I missed much of the MMarkland vs Fargo stuff, can you point me in the right direction?

Right beside it in Retardo land: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-men-mass-mayhem-with-monty-markland.120041/

 

[ortucis]

Still, that attempt at leverage did cause me to re-evaluate aspects of my life. Realizing debt was affecting my decision, I instead focused on working as hard as possible to make up for the amount Obsidian tried to use as leverage to force a signature – and succeeded.

When that happened, I realized I was free of the situation – completely free, for the first time. Feargus and the owners had no hold on my voice, my time, and my creativity any longer. And it was great.

This is sad and awesome at the same time.

 

[frajaq]

Newbies and others who don't know about the Codex's past issues with inXile - just read this thread: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...orment-gamescom-appointment-cancelled.110327/

You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.