RTS WarCraft 3 gets a huge patch; showmatch/tournament soon; possible remaster?

[Bad Jim]

Compared to Broodwar, they are scaled back considerably in terms of how much work they require and how screwed you are if you don't get them right.

On the contrary. Day9 points out another issue between BW and SC2 - the fact that the mechanics are extremely hard if not impossible to get perfectly means that BW actually has way, way many more comeback mechanics than SC2, which is a very fast-paced game about hitting timings and perfect responses properly at the highest level, and if you miss these timings, it becomes borderline impossible for you to ever climb back up, since it's much, much harder to disturb an opponent by splitting his attention and deviating him from what's going on in his base, since so much of the macro is automatized.

Significant comebacks are pretty common in high level SC2 games. You can theorycraft all you like, the videos and replays of actual games being played tell a different story. Missing a mule or two is nowhere near a fatal error at any level of play.

Something that is conspicuous by it's absence on "pimpest plays" videos is players putting workers on minerals in a timely manner, or keeping 5+ gateways going with little to no queuing. This is strange, because Korean pros do it a lot. It's almost as if no-one gives a flying fuck about that sort of thing and are really interested in the combat.

Do you make highlight videos of greatest slam dunks by noting how impeccable Dwight Howard's positioning and strategic mind is at all times? No. So why would you apply this principle to Starcraft pimpest plays? Note that many of the pimpest plays wouldn't be so "pimp" anymore under the SC2 system - look up, for example, iloveoov's perfect marine split against lurkers while keeping in mind how control groups work in SC. Pros and their playstyles vary greatly on their strongest fundamentals and matchups, and they definitely are distinguished for being able to macro like crazy. Flash's greatest strength is that he can routinely max out his army really, really fast while responding to all sorts of threats and always having an answer - hallmarks of solid play. Macro and micro are subsets of mechanics, and they're, generally, rather fun to execute. The community of people who play BW is

I should clear up something. I wasn't saying that the remaster should have used the SC2 engine. The remaster needed to be replay compatible with Brood War and the SC2 engine is all wrong for that. I wasn't even saying that every UI improvement in SC2 needed to go into the remaster. Smart casting, for example, would be pretty broken in a game with spells like irradiate. I'm annoyed that they didn't do anything.

In particular, rallying to minerals and multiple building selection. They make it easier to run your economy. They don't unbalance any unit or tactic. No pimpest plays become less pimp because of these two improvements. While I can see that people enjoy locking down a bunch of tanks or doing a perfect reaver drop, I'm pretty sure that most people wouldn't miss telling workers to start mining or having to go through 5 hotkeys to keep their factories going. With less effort devoted to basic economic management, players can turn their attention to units that fight.

Regarding the marine split, obviously if you can box select any number of units, some great feats in Brood War become trivial. That is what is seen. What is not seen are the feats that are too difficult even for pros. Some of these feats might become possible, but still difficult enough to impress, if large unit selections are possible. I'm pretty sure that the number of amazing feats being performed would not change. Starcraft 2 also has amazing marine splits, typically done to avoid banelings.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Significant comebacks are pretty common in high level SC2 games. You can theorycraft all you like, the videos and replays of actual games being played tell a different story. Missing a mule or two is nowhere near a fatal error at any level of play.

Liquid'Ret in his latest blog post really notes the importance of perfect timings, quoted as saying that his experience with SC2 involves tunnel vision to a timing or a unit comp based timing in the game where my chances are highest to win (differentiating slightly depending on what opponent is doing). In another post, he notes that small edges don't feel impossible to comeback from like they do in sc2. Missing a mule isn't a tragedy - losing a shitload of SCVs to the numerous harassing methods and units, or a big 200/200 engagement by a single wrong decision, generally is. Inject mechanics with shitloads of free larvae, warping in units to potentially any point on the map can generally be devastating; most BW losses build up much more gradually. Plenty of discussions on the subject have been made, making it a point that very often hitting the exactly right unit composition in a game with a very pronounced counter-unit meta-game is what really wins you the game.

I'm annoyed that they didn't do anything.

Honestly, most of the BW fanbase would be annoyed if they did do anything, since the remaster actually was discussed with the community. Again - there is no reason for BW and SC2 not to share the same space and be enjoyable as two good games.

I'm also annoyed that they didn't do anything in terms of a healthy matchmaking system or integrating common SCMDraft hacks like making ramps or stacking buildings or mineral patches into the regular StarEdit, so that you could enjoy the functionality that all the map in the competitive circuit run on straight out of the box.

I'm annoyed that they didn't do anything to make modding much less of a hassle, as some really, really fantastic custom campaigns still require you to run a special 1.16.1 version of the game, with a modified .exe, to be able to enjoy mods with custom units and mechanics. You have to mod the executable entirely just to add a Ghost with some special powers to your game, or to create your own skills - whereas WC3 just got a massive, massive array of mapmaker tools and increased player limits to 24.

But I wouldn't want them to change the game itself, because it has been successful as it is and it hasn't had any major balance complaints since 2016. You have to gauge the impact of simplifying certain mechanics or adding new ones *very* carefully, because in a game whose metagame that has evolved so much on its own, through the efforts of the community, and which isn't subject to constant content patches like SC2, a single change can simply prove volatile or come with unforeseen consequences.

In particular, rallying to minerals and multiple building selection. They make it easier to run your economy. They don't unbalance any unit or tactic. No pimpest plays become less pimp because of these two improvements.

But why bother changing it, either? Why can't we just accept the game as it is? If you find that it's not fun to be doing all of those things, feel free to not play the game - SC2 is there to allow you to not have to worry about these matters if you deem them to be miniscule. I am no fool and I'm aware that Brood War isn't an example of some genius design that was meticulously planned, and much of what people enjoy about it is a result of a big, happy accident - but that's why it's worth preserving with all of its quirks, same as rocketjumping in Quake or bunnyhopping. There isn't much money to be made in a misguided attempt at "reinventing" BW, since not that many people will care, any "nostalgia" factors can only carry a business for so long, and, to the general public, there really is nothing that a "refreshed" BW would really bring over SC2.

As it is, those remasters are run by really small teams - BW is spearheaded by just, like, one dude - so whatever work they did manage to get done is rather impressive. But you really need a giant effort to figure out which changes would actually benefit BW, and which would just divide the already divided community greatly (I'm not a fan of BW vs SC2 rivalries and I really wish we could all just get along!).

While I can see that people enjoy locking down a bunch of tanks or doing a perfect reaver drop, I'm pretty sure that most people wouldn't miss telling workers to start mining or having to go through 5 hotkeys to keep their factories going. With less effort devoted to basic economic management, players can turn their attention to units that fight.

You can always turn your attention to the units that fight, but the point is, you're making a very conscious decision to do so every single time you make an engagement. If you want to spend 3 minutes on dancing around in the enemy base with a dropship and trying to snipe their Spire to prevent any further Mutalisk or Scourge attacks, fantastic - but whether it will win you the game or not very much depends on either
1) whether you can balance it with all of the stuff you have to do at home
or
2) whether you are so good at what you're doing on the frontline that that alone can win you the game.
And the latter can be very much a gamble.
And, again, having to cycle through 5 hotkeys to keep factories going is not only a fun skill to put into practice, but it also does let you figure out your own way of doing things. Some people keep their "main" factories on the few last numbers on the keyboard, and some people just save screens (with F2-F3-F4) to be able to come back to them at any time because their hotkeys are too precious on figuring out their right army. The challenge of juggling 200/200 armies and infrastructure is actually fun, and rewarding, even if it's different to the equivalent SC2 mechanics.

Regarding the marine split, obviously if you can box select any number of units, some great feats in Brood War become trivial. That is what is seen. What is not seen are the feats that are too difficult even for pros. Some of these feats might become possible, but still difficult enough to impress, if large unit selections are possible.

Absolutely ridiculous shit even the pros can't do is already demonstrated by BW AIs like Overmind, but said AI, even if it is really impressive and can pull off ridiculous feats of Mutalisk micro, is still rather one-dimensional and incapable of truly adapting, as entertaining as those showmatches might be to watch. Does this mean we should have the AI in charge of our units? No. So, again - why shouldn't we keep the mechanics as they are and just push the perceived constraints that are already there? I'm fairly certain BW hasn't been solved yet - Flash literally just came up with a 1/1/1 build that absolutely wrecks TvZ and is making a big sensation on the scene, and the resurgence of island maps on the competitive circuit is bringing some very fresh gameplay to the shows.

I do think that after this discussion - as I've given a lot of consideration to each of my points - I feel like I could use to revise the high-tier LotV meta somewhat more, as I do feel like some of my experiences might be based on the impressions that certain less favorable eras of the game (such as the one-dimensionality of HotS) wrought upon me. So, for that, I thank you. And let it be repeated that I really do think SC2 is a fine game, and I should definitely acknowledge that with its current state, it's definitely more rapidly evolving than BW is.

 

[Bad Jim]

I'm also annoyed that they didn't do anything in terms of a healthy matchmaking system or integrating common SCMDraft hacks like making ramps or stacking buildings or mineral patches into the regular StarEdit, so that you could enjoy the functionality that all the map in the competitive circuit run on straight out of the box.

You're staunchly opposed to UI improvements that make your economy easier to manage, yet you want StarEdit to support making money maps?

 

[Dzupakazul]

You're staunchly opposed to UI improvements that make your economy easier to manage, yet you want StarEdit to support making money maps?

Stacking mineral patches isn't useful just for money maps (although there's nothing wrong with them in Brood War - a lot of the playerbase still plays on the Fa$te$t Map Po$$ible and Big Game Hunters, just go on US West in prime time hour). See how they're used on ASL maps like Third World, where 0 mineral patch stacks are used to let workers go through addons impenetrable for regular units (and only work with workers because of their lack of collision with units - and whatever counts as units, such as very specific doodads - when ordered to gather minerals).

Stacking buildings is often a neat mapmaking cheat to create (possibly indestructible) doodads that are supposed to serve as walls, and in campaigns / UMSes with scripts, stacking a couple of buildings together and then destroying them all with a trigger produces a neat "explosion" effect, with vibrating sound and a bigger "boom".

Anyhow, I don't see the reason to hinge on this particular point. The crux of what I'm trying to say is, it's really kind of annoying that SCBW has amazing mapmaking potential and still remains somewhat more friendly for a mapmaker than SC2 (in BW, you just learn how to use the most basic triggers and their relationships, though it's of course nowhere near as great as WC3's editor), yet not a single improvement was made to the ediitor, or to modding tools. Once again: Inconsummate by Pronogo is a really cool campaign, featuring custom doodads, full voice acting, and unique heroes with their own spells, but it's sad that I can't play it in SC:R, instead requiring a 1.16.1 install to be able to input mods on. It's not convenient, and it's one of those things you'd think a remaster would integrate, if we're putting forth our wishlist of things we'd like.

 

[MilesBeyond]

So... any comments on the actual balance changes? I don't know that they'll make a huge difference, personally. I find it a little odd that all the Orc heroes got buffed when Orcs already have the strongest heroes, but I guess the Blademaster nerf does lower the race's total DPS. I can't help but feel that some of them miss the point. The buffs to the Dreadlord's Vampiric Aura and Sleep aren't bad, but they don't really address the issues with those abilities - Undead doesn't rely on melee units enough for Vampiric Aura to be useful, and Sleep is easily countered by decent micro. The other problem there is that DK is just mandatory for Undead so you can have healing. I feel like the power discrepancies between the heroes aren't as big as they were before, but the gameplay itself won't really change much. Humans will still probably go Archmage/MK, UD go DK/Lich, NE go Demonhunter/Tavern, and Orcs go Blademaster/whatever the hell they want. Really the only change that might happen is that the "whatever the hell they want" category might be more likely to include Far Seer.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

I think the dreadlord changes were mostly there to make it an alternative to the panda, since it can actually be healed with coil and still basically has the ability that you'd get the panda for.