Combat in D&D/Baldurs Gate/etc: What's the appeal ?

[Silva]

Honest question. I'm a fag for tactical games and cum all over the screen with JA2, Xcom, NU-Xcom, Shogun TW, Invisible Inc, SWAT 4, etc. But I could never see the fun in D&D based games like Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, etc. which for me always felt more like work ("Oh here comes another encounter") than fun, and usually is resumed by buff buff click click repeat with little to No consideration for terrain, maneuvering, flanking, LOS, hit locations, etc. It all feels so abstract and disconected to any RL sort of conflict it's almost like I'm playing Qbert or something.

I even forced myself to finish BG2 out of curiosity for everything people said about it, but looking back I just raped myself back then. I didn't like the experience at all.

So bros, what's up with these games?

 

[Bester]

Same question, but for PoE. Any takers?

 

[Dorateen]

Why associate (A)D&D combat with the infinity engine? Try the Gold Box games, Temple of Elemental Evil, Knights of the Chalice, etc.

 

[Reinhardt]

Yes.

 

[Great Deceiver]

But what is an RPG?

 

[deama]

Sometimes it's fun to kill hordes of shit with just one spell.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Honest question. I'm a fag for tactical games and cum all over the screen with JA2, Xcom, NU-Xcom, Shogun TW, Invisible Inc, SWAT 4, etc. But I could never see the fun in D&D based games like Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, etc. which for me always felt more like work ("Oh here comes another encounter") than fun, and usually is resumed by buff buff click click repeat with little to No consideration for terrain, maneuvering, flanking, LOS, hit locations, etc. It all feels so abstract and disconected to any RL sort of conflict it's almost like I'm playing Qbert or something.

"D&D based games" "Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale"

Play Pool of Radiance, Champions of Krynn, and the other Gold Box games by SSI, which were an earnest effort at adapting AD&D combat to CRPGs. Or try anything else with similar tactical combat, rather than conflating D&D with Biowarean decline.

 

[ProphetSword]

At this point, I'll be the third person to tell you to try the Gold-Box games if you want real AD&D combat. Forget anything from the Infinity Engine.

If you want to see D&D combat done right, play either Temple of Elemental Evil or Knights of the Chalice. These are based upon 3rd Edition D&D. Skip the Pool of Radiance "sequel" though. It is a pox upon humanity.

 

[Cael]

Get the Circle of 8 patch for Temple of Elemental Evil or you are in for a world of bug hurt.

If you really want a tactical game of DnD, play 3.5 tabletop with a competent DM. Computer games don't come close.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

No IE fan takes the combat of IWD seriously. When you talk about IE combat, it's all about BG2. The game has a cult following because it allow every AD&D fan to play a bastardized version of their favorite PnP on their computer, but also because of the graphics, the open world with a ungodly amount of quests, the NPCs and their colourful personalities, the many ubber magic weapons with their little stories, the many spells, etc. It's an immersive game with endless things to do and explore, but at the end of the day the combat system is completely broken and there is no resource management whatsover--you can simply rest to restore your health. In some sense you can say that BG2 was the first successful experiment of popamolization of cRPGs.

 

[Machocruz]

Thing I like about the IE games is that battles take place in the same layer as exploration instead of a separate "battle mode". So you can take your thief, scout around, find a room full of enemies, then bring over your sorceror and nuke the room before they're even aware of your presence. I'm sure they aren't the only games you can do this in, but that help makes up for their shortcomings. I played ToEE, but I remember enemies always being "activated" so you couldn't preemptively strike. But maybe I'm remembering wrongly.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Cloudkilling rooms of oblivious enemies always seemed wrong, so I don't do it. Just don't do it.

 

[Micormic]

I didn't mind IE combat, wasn't my favorite system but aside from some tedious encounters(especially in the IWD games) I didn't have a problem with it overall.


Of course I preferred combat in Fallout 1/2/ToEE/JA2 to name a few, but I had no problem with RTWP if done right.

 

[Gregz]

Honest question. I'm a fag for tactical games and cum all over the screen with JA2, Xcom, NU-Xcom, Shogun TW, Invisible Inc, SWAT 4, etc. But I could never see the fun in D&D based games like Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, etc. which for me always felt more like work ("Oh here comes another encounter") than fun, and usually is resumed by buff buff click click repeat with little to No consideration for terrain, maneuvering, flanking, LOS, hit locations, etc. It all feels so abstract and disconected to any RL sort of conflict it's almost like I'm playing Qbert or something.

I even forced myself to finish BG2 out of curiosity for everything people said about it, but looking back I just raped myself back then. I didn't like the experience at all.

So bros, what's up with these games?

One thing I might offer that's unique to D&D is the sheer variety of enemies. They all have different qualities, resistances, abilities, spells, etc.

Dragons, mind flayers, beholders, umber hulks, trolls, vampires, purple worms....any of those can be very dangerous if you don't understand their mechanics and how to counter them. So to me this deepens the strategy element.

You won't see that kind of enemy diversity in JA2 or even Xcom.

 

[Silva]

If I look at it as a kinda cardgame without the random factor, would I be too far from the target? I mean it's like each character has a bunch of cards/powers with specific rules each, and the game consists mainly in prepping a hand to counter the enemy's as much as possible? So if you see a mage ahead for e.g. you prep a Swarm spell or some other mage-nullifying power, etc. ?

Which is very different from your typical tactical game that's usually more "geographic", and less about prepping hands of abilities, right?

I will take a look at ToEE.

 

[laclongquan]

The appeal of Inifinity combat is of course the Real Time with Pause tactical battle of course.

I speak of Icewind Dale 2, for a concrete example.

Let's say the Frozen Marsh.

With the limit of Cleric and Wizard is at level 8 or so, meaning their buff is about ten rounds, full turn.

You can do one leisure battle twice or thrice before rest (because your slots are about that) or you can draw hostiles in for one big battle.

Why not rest then recast buff you ask? Because it's become pretty boring by now. I totally can do it, but anytime where I can draw all map into one big battle I choose so. This is a C&C in strategic sense. Also it's hard and it's fun. Thus why 1/2 battles per map instead of a series of minor skirmishes per map.

Now then, Frozen Marsh. My deep gnome rogue explore the whole map and discover most of waiting parties. He initiate combat at the far side, and draw enemy toward him while he do a fighting retreat back toward the waiting 5.

Meanwhile my wizard cast web, my bard cast grease, my cleric cast bane (then prayer, horror, despair...) at the battlefield. Then Haste at the melee fighters

Due to the build of rogue/fighter deep gnome, he's one fast and slippery fucker who avoid most of the chasers and run straight through the web thanks to high reflex. Straight through the two Animate Dead summons, leaving them to engage the chasers.

Most of enemy got stuck in grease/web/bane/despair/horror. The few vanguard stuck with two Animate Dead. The named hostile and few shamans lag behind.

This time the 6 unload ranged missile and spell on the casters behind, priority number one. The hostiles unload a few spells but most of them get disrupted thanks to numerous strikes. then they just die. Should you have Fireball or Necklace of MIssile charge left, a few careful placing will fry them all with only the summons got the tail end of those. Animate Dead are quite sturdy so you dont have to worry too much about it.

The next priority is the hostiles lagged behind, still not the vanguard. These, mostly snow trolls, get dropped. Then the only slinger (cleric) who got acid bullets left start to work on the fallen down trolls while the others start working on the vanguard who by now slip through the grease and web a bit. The melee fighters drop the bows and take out spear and sword to work on the approaching enemies.

Almost wound free. One summon died.

As you can see, the C&C in tactic decision does exist and continuously exist in a battle with Pause between Real Time, a senseof combat that is very different from a battle in TB.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Barbarians

 

[laclongquan]

Barbarian's Rage is slightly over-rate at higher level and especially so at lower level. The +4 Strength is very nice if you dont savescuming spell Strength, but few people refuse to do it either, as the spell last very long while Rage last one skirmish.

 

[NotAGolfer]

The appeal is to see your careful planning for the next encounter fly straight out of the window a few moments in and then witnessing the chaos unfold, all while frantically trying to save that retard mage of yours after he blindly walked into that confusion spell trap (which your thief didn't spot because the fucking RNG decided to troll you), before the enemy can slaughter him like the weak little bitch he is.

...
Okay, I never really got the appeal myself. These games are fun on paper and you might feel smart now and then if you find original ways to cheese. Other than that they are shit gameplay-wise (talking about RTWP IE games).
I think I have to reevaluate my way too high opinion of these games at some point. But not now, because who cares what I think anyway.

 

[Sykar]

Managing your resources especially spells if you can restrict yourself like me to not abuse rest in dungeons.

 

[Lilura]

Why associate (A)D&D combat with the infinity engine?

Infinity is just infinitely more popular due to RTwP scrubbery and dumbed down mechanics.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

OP
IE RTWP combat is shit.
The good party members are annoying little bitches and horribly unoptimized stat-wise. waste of xp.

If you want a DnD combat experience play Dark Sun-Shattered Lands and Knights of the Chalice.


That said:

The appeal of BG2 is uber spellcasting -where magic is much more significant than reskinned ranged attack IX.

Also absolutely fun unique loot. Tons of fun stuff like Cromyr in there.

O think the first time i played bg2 blind i relied on cloudkill sniping and abusing consumables of summon fodder to faceroll my way thru the more "challenging" encounters.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

It's all about the ability to play D&D like it was always meant to be played: as a real time strategy game.

 

[laclongquan]

The appeal is seeing your careful planning for the next encounter fly straight out of the window a few moments in and then witnessing the chaos unfold, all while frantically trying to save that retard mage of yours after he blindly walked into that confusion spell trap (which your thief didn't spot because the fucking RNG decided to troll you), before the enemy can slaughter him like the weak little bitch he is.

...
Okay, I never really got the appeal myself. These games are fun on paper and you might feel smart now and then if you find original ways to cheese. Other than that they are shit gameplay-wise (talking about RTWP IE games).
I think I have to reevaluate my way too high opinion of these games at some point. But not now, because who cares what I think anyway.

Up yours!

First, either the trap is seeable, in which case you see it because you build your rogue and your wizard the proper way. Or it's not seeable because the traps are designed to drop ambush on your ass, which you know is a function of battlefield.

There is no random number involved in either case.

As for you retard mage, that is because you are retard to have him move alone. He either move with other casters in a back group, or he move with your slow ass Animate Dead summons

 

[Lilura]

If you want a DnD combat experience play Dark Sun-Shattered Lands and Knights of the Chalice.

What the? I'm surprised you didn't add Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor to that retardation. ToEE with Temple+ blows everything away.

So does Jagged Alliance 2 and Silent Storm.

Tons of fun stuff like Cromyr in there.

Crom Faeyr and Carsomyr, yes!

O think the first time i played bg2 blind i relied on cloudkill sniping and abusing consumables of summon fodder to faceroll my way thru the more "challenging" encounters.

Monocled, indeed!