NWN Neverwinter Nights OC: What makes it so terrible?

[The Great ThunThun*]

I think many of us here believe that SoU and HoTU are actually quite good. But there seems to be a clear distaste for the OC. I am wondering if you think its the story or the encounter design that is at fault.

Personally, I think that the story is fine. It is a typical "ancient evil arising and you are the lone hero" fanfare which is the bread and butter of RPGs since ages. It is nothing innovative or smart but it does the job. The companions are at the worst boring and the best cannon fodder. Nothing to see there, but nothing particularly offensively anime either, a la DA2.

However, the encounter design is some of the worst I have ever seen. Each area is basically designed to be a hack and slash fest for no other reason other than to make the place feel alive. There are some passable quests like the one with the werewolf, but most quests involve fighting everything to death. And after the first 30 minutes, it gets bland and repetitive leaving a terrible taste in the mouth.

So, do you think this is an adequate reason why NWN:OC feels so terrible? Or do you have any other reasons?

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Crap for C&C, dialogue paths are pretty one-dimensional good-or-evil crap, boring fucking story with a twist you see coming from a mile away, bazillions of trashmobs to mow down for no really good reason, 3.0 ruleset as implemented in NWN OC is frustrating, henchmen are variably boring and almost never say anything particularly interesting (Tomi's kind of funny though).

SoU is passable, better than OC but that's a low hurdle to clear. HotU is decent.

 

[Tigranes]

It is nothing innovative or smart but it does the job. The companions are at the worst boring and the best cannon fodder.

It must be a nice job where you can be completely unoriginal, idiotic, and boring, and still 'do the job'. I think, coming from BG2 and not yet in the era of retarded sex scenes or Awesome Buttons, we had certain expectations. And what we got was a lobotomised set of moronic characters, a "twist" that you could bet your life savings on from the first chapter (which they then copied and paste for about 4 subsequent games), and a plot that was literally "here go to 4 places find 4 things, now go to 4 other places find 4 other things". It was like playing a flowchart that parodies CRPG plots.

Obviously that ties into level design and the rest. I distinctly remember at one point that the map was a completely generic square of forest split by a perfectly symmetrical road intersection... because obviously I needed to go to 4 places to find the 4 macguffins or whatever. It didn't even try, it was like the level design equivalent of Bioware saying "well our choices are fake anyway, so let's just write our dialogue as (1) I accept, (2) I agree and (3) OK".

 

[JarlFrank]

NWN OC isn't bad because it's terrible. It's bad because it's just... bland and mediocre, without anything of interest to it. It has a bland story, bland companions, bland level design, bland quests, bland encounters, and the fact that the combat plays way less smoothly than it did in the Infinity Engine and the fact that you can't control companions just makes you notice how bland it all is even more.

It's not that NWN's OC is particularly terrible at anything, if it were as bad at writing and companions as, say, Dragon Age 2, it would at least be funny, something to laugh at. DA2 might be a shit game but you can play it for the lulz because it's so bad it's funny. But no, the NWN OC isn't actually bad in that way. No aspects of it are so horrendously terrible that you can laugh at them, or that they make you shake your head at how retarded the designers must have been.

It's worse than that - it's just bland. There's nothing, not a single thing about it that is interesting in any way. It's mediocre throughout, with no high poiints and no low points, just the same consistent mediocre quality. Pure banality.

Terribly bad games can at least be made fun of. NWN OC doesn't even have that.

 

[Santander02]

The copy paste environments are one of the big reasons why it is so shitboring for me, an ancient tomb in the middle of the forest looks exactly like the city's prison, a rich house in Blacklake looks exactly like some cabin in some backwater fishing village, the inside of Never's castle's walls, floor and doors look exactly like Helm's hold, Luskan could be another district of Neverwinter as far looks are concerned and so on and so on. Imagine coming into this game after going trough the infinity engine titles and their beautifully crafted locations, pure decline. It just adds to the utter banality of it all that JarlFrank just described

 

[mbv123]

It's just boring and uninspired as shit.
Not bad enough to make fun of how bad it is, and not good enough to enjoy when you play.
I personally think it's even worse than when you play a bad game, at least you get something out of it, NWN OC gives me nothing but tedium. Good enough remedy for an insomnia, I guess.

 

[Serious_Business]

LMFAO as usual Codex doesn't know what its talking about. OC is 8/10. Just LMFO

R00fles!

Trying some classic lines here, gentlemen. Makes my balls itch

 

[Morality Games]

I think many of us here believe that SoU and HoTU are actually quite good. But there seems to be a clear distaste for the OC. I am wondering if you think its the story or the encounter design that is at fault.

Personally, I think that the story is fine. It is a typical "ancient evil arising and you are the lone hero" fanfare which is the bread and butter of RPGs since ages. It is nothing innovative or smart but it does the job. The companions are at the worst boring and the best cannon fodder. Nothing to see there, but nothing particularly offensively anime either, a la DA2.

However, the encounter design is some of the worst I have ever seen. Each area is basically designed to be a hack and slash fest for no other reason other than to make the place feel alive. There are some passable quests like the one with the werewolf, but most quests involve fighting everything to death. And after the first 30 minutes, it gets bland and repetitive leaving a terrible taste in the mouth.

So, do you think this is an adequate reason why NWN:OC feels so terrible? Or do you have any other reasons?

It's like if you were having a blast playing Fallout 1-2 for the first time and then went into Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch looking for more of the same.

NWN OC was my first real PC RPG and nearly my first RPG (having played Zelda and Final Fantasy the SNES/N64 before it). I have a lot of nostalgic attachment for it, but it is hard to look favorably on the game as a follow up to the depth of content one had during the Infinity Engine era.

That being said, from both a development and marketing point of view, I don't think Neverwinter Nights was intended to be a follow up to the Infinity Engine any more than Shadowrun Returns was meant to be a follow up to Fallout 1-2.

 

[vazha]

NWN OC isn't bad because it's terrible. It's bad because it's just... bland and mediocre, without anything of interest to it. It has a bland story, bland companions, bland level design, bland quests, bland encounters, and the fact that the combat plays way less smoothly than it did in the Infinity Engine and the fact that you can't control companions just makes you notice how bland it all is even more.

It's not that NWN's OC is particularly terrible at anything, if it were as bad at writing and companions as, say, Dragon Age 2, it would at least be funny, something to laugh at. DA2 might be a shit game but you can play it for the lulz because it's so bad it's funny. But no, the NWN OC isn't actually bad in that way. No aspects of it are so horrendously terrible that you can laugh at them, or that they make you shake your head at how retarded the designers must have been.

It's worse than that - it's just bland. There's nothing, not a single thing about it that is interesting in any way. It's mediocre throughout, with no high poiints and no low points, just the same consistent mediocre quality. Pure banality.

Terribly bad games can at least be made fun of. NWN OC doesn't even have that.

Agree on everything, except the companions. While not BG 2 lvl, I think some of them were quite decent, at least to the extent that I still remember their names. Tomi Undergallows wasn't bad for example and Grimgnaw was quite a bad ass too. But of course, nothing and no one comes close to Deekin, who I think was first companion in a game I really came to care about, esp in HotU.

 

[Tigranes]

Before we decide to blow that IE games storytelling whistle too hard,

Nobody did. It is remarkable how NWN1OC dropped like a cliff off those not-very-high standards.

Aribeth and the emasculated elf guyis almost like if you took Aerie and made the main plot around it.

 

[Elhoim]

I haven't played it in ages, but what I remember finding completely retarded was the amount of enemies you kill, especially in the prison in Neverwinter.

 

[Morality Games]

Before we decide to blow that IE games storytelling whistle too hard, I must remind people that they also did a somewhat mediocre job of telling a story. Not to mention the snoozefest most IWD/2 combat encounters are (but not all).

The Infinity Engine games were a complete aesthetic-visual experience in addition to being a squad-based tactical game. Going from different screens was like roaming through a museum of fantasy art set to a masterful epic adventure soundtrack.

Neverwinter Nights isn't nearly so painterly (literally -- its not hand drawn or painted like the Infinity Engine screens) and 'suffers' from the polygon aesthetics that afflicted most of the games from that era. It does however have an eerie "dark fantasy" soundtrack that evokes the true spirit of the Realms better than the Baldur's Gate series, if only marginally so.

It would be an 8/10 just on the grounds of the soundtrack.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

A lot of it had to do with how good BG1 and 2 were in comparison.

-Party size reduced from 6 to 2(!!!)
-Aurora engine looked like garbage. Infinity Engine looked nice for its time.
-Combat was just a clusterfuck, BG2 had interesting tactical encounters
-The ruleset was altered to make enemies weaker, more frequent, and provide less XP, creating some kind of Diablo-esque game instead of 3E D&D. The Infinity Engine games were great adaptations of the D&D rules.
-Spell spam is always the best option with unlimited risk-free resting
-Prestige classes not properly implemented
-Skills not properly implemented
-Overall power increase for player abilities and nerf to enemies to allow for 2 man parties
-Crafting feats and magic items not properly implemented (easy to stack stat bonuses for example)
*edit* Forgot one: -Enemies drop randomized loot (this seriously bugged me at the time); in BG1/2 they dropped what they were wearing


And that's all before we even get to the story problems. The story isn't just boring, generic, perfunctory, and uninteresting, it's all of that right after bioware made a game with a much better story and one of the coolest villains of all time. Bioware set a high standard and then failed to meet it again.

-The opening chapter is trash. If I hear Aribeth's voice actor say the word "waterdhavian" ever again I will probably puke. No editor should have signed off on a script that included the phrase "waterdhavian creature" 17 times in one dialogue sequence. For fuck's sake.

-Every chapter is hub + 4 outlying areas, with some contrived meaningless pap about why you need to go to each area. No back tracking and no world map. It feels half-assed and formulaic. This ended up Bioware's design template for their next 4 or 5 games but this is where it started. BG1 and 2 were much better laid out and designed.

-Opening cutscene has nothing to do with the game and is never explained. It's not a big deal but it shows the overall lack of direction and aimless nature of the game.

So as a big D&D fan and a big Baldur's Gate fan I was really excited to see Bioware adapt 3rd Edition D&D. But Neverwinter Nights was just a repeated punch in the gut from start to finish.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

IE games are indeed beautiful. And the IWD2 music is just unparalleled in setting the tone of the game.

 

[Tigranes]

I mean, there simply is no reason to play NWN1 OC. Does it have challenging tactical combat? Does it have great aesthetics or ambience? Does it have any kind of enjoyable dialogue or plot? Level design? The most faithful implementation of 3rd edition experience? Even someone who ends up thinking Arcanum is a horribly broken game, for example, will initially be attracted by its unique setting, while someone who hates Alpha Protocol will regret that it could not deliver (in their opinion) on its cool promises. With NWN1 OC, there is just nothing.

Even the thoroughly mediocre, generic and fugly NWN2 OC at least had signature set pieces like the trial and Crossroads Keep, both of which stand as relatively comprehensive and interesting examples in their genre.

I tend to think SOU & HOTU are overrated and they are just OK rather than good, but at least they had more of a distinct style. It honestly is challenging to remember anything about NWN1 OC.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

A more elucidating question would be to ask, "What about the Neverwinter Nights OC was excellent?"

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

The OC was so forgettable I forgot I played NWN like, five-six years after it released. Then when I did try it, I had this strange sense of deja vu and realized I actually did play this game at some point. I also later found the original box I bought in the old attic (after wading through five generic attic spiders and a demon centipede) so I actually bought the game twice. Like a retard.

 

[Cael]

I think many of us here believe that SoU and HoTU are actually quite good. But there seems to be a clear distaste for the OC. I am wondering if you think its the story or the encounter design that is at fault.

Personally, I think that the story is fine. It is a typical "ancient evil arising and you are the lone hero" fanfare which is the bread and butter of RPGs since ages. It is nothing innovative or smart but it does the job. The companions are at the worst boring and the best cannon fodder. Nothing to see there, but nothing particularly offensively anime either, a la DA2.

However, the encounter design is some of the worst I have ever seen. Each area is basically designed to be a hack and slash fest for no other reason other than to make the place feel alive. There are some passable quests like the one with the werewolf, but most quests involve fighting everything to death. And after the first 30 minutes, it gets bland and repetitive leaving a terrible taste in the mouth.

So, do you think this is an adequate reason why NWN:OC feels so terrible? Or do you have any other reasons?

It is not the story. It is the map design that is the problem. Not encounter design. Map design. Everything is so far away that it takes forever to get to stuff. Add to that, the "running" speed of the NWN toon is the slowest I have ever seen (Bethesda walking sims aside). Watching your toon go tromp... tromp... tromp... for hours is aggravating as hell. You basically NEED to get a perma-Haste item simply for the PLAYER'S own sanity. Plus the sheer number of lootable stuff, especially in the first chapter triggers all sorts of OCD in me, made worse because the loot is completely random and you really want to open them all to get the most chance at the best stuff.

They fixed both of these in the expansions and the sequel.

 

[Eyestabber]

I stopped playing as soon as I realized some retard decided to make a single character rpg in motherfucking d&d. I distinctly remember nwn being marketed as bg successor and then thinking "well...where is my party?".

Whoever decided to remove the party deserves to be shot.

 

[Roguey]

I stopped playing as soon as I realized some retard decided to make a single character rpg in motherfucking d&d. I distinctly remember nwn being marketed as bg successor and then thinking "well...where is my party?".

Whoever decided to remove the party deserves to be shot.

There's a party, it's called multiplayer. The closest thing you can get to twoo D&D in a computer role playing game as Volourn would say.

 

[Eyestabber]

For me, the party is not so important. I mean, seriously. I don't need imaginary friends.

Lol. Ever play Icewind Dale? The party is there because no class in d&d is supposed to be self sufficient. You need a thief to open the locks and spot traps, a cleric to heal your wounds and buff, a wizard to deal with crowds.

The removal of the party is not a "detail" but rather the cornerstone of the shit castle that is nwn. Because once you remove the party you have to water down EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT of the game.

Combat can't be too hard, or else a support PC is doomed. Traps can't be too deadly or else either player or henchman must be rogue and so on.

NWN is like a dinner where you can only choose one piece of cutlery to use during the meal. Which means you can't have soup, or else only the people who choose the spoon will be able to eat. You can't have steak, because fork and spoon wielders would be fucked. So you end up with some weird precut and mashed blob and while you try your best to eat that stuff you're wondering "why not give me a full set of cutlery? Are these people retarded? Do they even know how this is supposed to work??".

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

For me, the party is not so important. I mean, seriously. I don't need imaginary friends.

Lol. Ever play Icewind Dale? The party is there because no class in d&d is supposed to be self sufficient. You need a thief to open the locks and spot traps, a cleric to heal your wounds and buff, a wizard to deal with crowds.

The removal of the party is not a "detail" but rather the cornerstone of the shit castle that is nwn. Because once you remove the party you have to water down EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT of the game.

Combat can't be too hard, or else a support PC is doomed. Traps can't be too deadly or else either player or henchman must be rogue and so on.

NWN is like a dinner where you can only choose one piece of cutlery to use during the meal. Which means you can't have soup, or else only the people who choose the spoon will be able to eat. You can't have steak, because fork and spoon wielders would be fucked. So you end up with some weird precut and mashed blob and while you try your best to eat that stuff you're wondering "why not give me a full set of cutlery? Are these people retarded? Do they even know how this is supposed to work??".

This might be a contributing factor to why magic users absolutely dominate in NWN, come to think of it. A DC caster or a Harmspam Cleric with Find Traps basically fears nothing and needs no one.

 

[Apostle Hand]

I liked original campaign, but will never play it again.

Thieves and clerics are not so important to me, I like to have some party where you protect some princess, like 5 warriors and princess.
Princess is mage, and rest are fighters, maybe some of them have a few levels of cleric or thief.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Lol. Ever play Icewind Dale? The party is there because no class in d&d is supposed to be self sufficient.

You do know soloing IWD is totally possible and much more hassle-free, right?

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Lol. Ever play Icewind Dale? The party is there because no class in d&d is supposed to be self sufficient.

You do know soloing IWD is totally possible and much more hassle-free, right?

Possible yes, but much more hassle-free? I don't follow.