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RTS WarCraft 3 gets a huge patch; showmatch/tournament soon; possible remaster?

Lagi

Savant
Joined
Jul 19, 2015
Messages
726
Location
Desert
impressive, you even take effort to have a look on my old post, i feel honored. It was pleasure to read all your arguments, they are written very well. But I'm not competent to discuss the nuances on competitive level, neither I want to. I state how i see the game, being played by "noob".

firebat - you agree its rarely use, and even said if, he receive some "buff" of normal damage, the meta [way its play] would stay same. Well that would be nice, maybe FB will occur more often.

citadel of adun - wouldn't it feel more complete, if this structure provide access to something more than single upgrade? In barracks you can builds lots of units, it not only time threshold.
High templar without upgrades - he really can not have any function, not upgraded?

siege tank being staple unit - its boring doing the same, its good to do things other way. Zealot and zergling - because its starting unit and there is no alternatives. That where my firebat complain come from; I receive second combat early unit, and I'm limited on using it to some specific situations. On the mid game you might want to have more options for core gameplay, than always focus on tanks.

this all can be explain by the need to be adjust for competitive use, we cannot nerf tank Terran will get too weak. We can not add more to Citadel, it would break the way we used to play Protoss.​

what i said:
some units in SC are vastly overused than others
and this is the type of balance i;m speaking about - not sure whats the more appropriate word here.

and for WC3 units, I'm using many of them, I can make army based on Necros making Skeletons, other game I can focus on Banshee. And struggle with provided AI or other noob (as I expected on competitive level, there are issues here - the more I'm happy multi dont spoil this game for me). I cannot do the same in SC, if fex I focus on Firebats instead Marines.

as for your last paragraph;
i admit I write some "heresy" from the start. it is, i even check wiki definition of heresy.

I'm not aspire to "get gut" and investing my time into multi, to find the nuances, for using underused units. I found enough fun in playing games alone, unfortunately playing it with community is rarely enjoyable [for me].

"brain damage" i was refere to gaining rude attitude of toxic community. Not that i feel superior to someone who play multi.
sorry should write it more clear.
 

ChaDargo

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
425
Location
Texas
I found enough fun in playing games alone, unfortunately playing it with community is rarely enjoyable [for me].

"brain damage" i was refere to gaining rude attitude of toxic community. Not that i feel superior to someone who play multi.
sorry should write it more clear.

This is unfortunate and it's what I thought was the issue for you. It's too bad there isn't more of a healthy environment for people to play SCBW, especially for those new to competition. But there really never was except maybe ICCup Training Program, but even that could be a pretty nasty place lol

Edit: I'd like to respond to your complaints about firebats real quick. Firebats aren't used in TvT, almost never used in TvP (maybe sometimes in rare bio pushes or against zealot rushes, but not really). But in TvZ, for which I believe the unit was designed, they are a staple of the matchup. They're not only crucial against ling plays, but against Dark Swarm. It's very common to see a Terran resort to quite a few firebats when Dark Swarm gets out of hand, as they're the only unit Terran has that can kill anything that's under the DS (other than an irradiate or an SCV lol).
 
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Lagi

Savant
Joined
Jul 19, 2015
Messages
726
Location
Desert
ChaDargo - thanks, but I'm not really even read manuals, neither i'm willing to read guide's. They are spoilers to me.

=====[this is not personal attack against anyone, just typing on the flow]=====
Not sure from where come this elitism* attitude, that from my gaming&posting endeavour's, only come from Starcraft [not warcraft, not age of empires, not total annihilation, even Counter Strike is more accessible, maybe LoL (i never follow) players think higher of themselves]

I [noob] and SC-fan [Pro] have different approach to the subject - sacred BroodWar. Pro trying to persuade Noob that chess, are the perfect game, while noob telling pro, it would make more sens if Queen was not the most powerful unit, and King should be more viable, as combat unit. And tower should'nt move.

f.ex: "I dont like Citadel of Adun, its a filler structure." "how dare you! there is leg improvement there"

Its like someone condemn other for driving a car without knowing adiabatic process in engine. My gradma can drive a car [she believe earth is flat, and can not choose contact on her phone].

FIREBAT: good its unit vs Zerg. If he get buffed, to be used as melee vs other race, would FB become worse? I'm afraid to said that I used SCV to shield my Marines [is it approved tactic? or should i be ashamed for wasting mineral income - should I study net for the correct answers?].


*Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.


EDIT:
I start making huge OFFTOP, sorry
I'm not posting more about Starcraft here
 
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Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Lagi, I'm perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that your post wasn't meant to be inherently inflammatory. I might have taken an issue with tone - it didn't seem like you were making your own observations but stating some misguided facts.
I do believe though that SCBW is a perfectly fine for both casual and pro players. Most of BW's scene was quite casual, and there's no shame in spending your time mostly in team games, money maps, or UMS games. Some of the issues you speak of, e.g. that Battlecruisers are useless because "they are a resource dumpster", kinda didn't make sense when you, in the same breath, assert Carriers are not one, when in reality, in many casual games, 5-6 BCs are already a massive obstacle to most players and generally even have a good matchup against Carriers in a straight up fight (of course, though, Protoss support units would definitely turn the tide here). I really like going MMF in fast 2v2/3v3 games as Terran, it's quite intense and the damage is rewarding, and team games tend to go by their own, volatile rules (you spend way more time building "tier 1" stuff).
And although I did encounter quite a wee bit of salt from the SC community, I've also met many great friends through the game and observed some absolutely terrific community members in both SC1 and SC2. Day9 sticks out here greatly, the man's material on how the game is played is absolutely delightful.
All I'm saying is that there are underused units in many games, and that their status somewhat contributes to depth - I propose SC wasn't fully "discovered" yet, that Queen strat with ZvT was sufficiently explored only like, 2 years ago? Which is pretty nice for something that's purportedly a "ded gaem'.
But yeah, I retract the confrontational attitude from the takedown of your points, and apologise.

FIREBAT: good its unit vs Zerg. If he get buffed, to be used as melee vs other race, would FB become worse?
Well, you see, it's not really that Firebats are specifically bad against non-Zerg, it's that infantry based strats are generally just not good against Terran and Protoss as well. Terran run circles around mass Marines the moment Vultures are out, and it gets worse when you have to gradually start passing through Spider Mine fields and fight Siege Tank fire. Protoss, in the meantime, outranges Marines with Dragoon range. Marine-based strats are generally extremely early game oriented, cheese rushes, or extremely specific. Look at this game where the Terran attempts to kill his Protoss opponent fast by sacrificing his entire economy and going for a fast Marine attack. On ASL4, Flash vs Bisu Game 4 saw Bisu go superfast Carriers and Flash's response was considered to be trolling by some members of the community (he was 2:0 by that time in the game and Bisu took a desperate, unorthodox out), but mass Marines is often a correct response to a Carrier rush because they rip Interceptors apart and deal well with the conversely much smaller and worse supported land army; you can't afford as many Zeals/Goons when you're rushing Stargates / Fleet Beacon, and your tech elsewhere suffers as well (vastly delayed Reavers to decimate the infantry). Firebats getting a buff would probably make Sunken busts stronger (and TvZ is already quite much harder on the Zerg early on), but they'd still be only used against Zerg and *maybe* Zealot-heavy armies. But they're still quite specifically a TvZ unit because infantry as a whole is generally TvZ.

I'm afraid to said that I used SCV to shield my Marines [is it approved tactic? or should i be ashamed for wasting mineral income - should I study net for the correct answers?].
Frankly, it depends. Worker pulling is very common for all races depending on what's going on:
1) If you get Zergling rushed as either P or T, your best bet is to surround your Marine / Zealot with peons.
2) When you're Zerg and hit by a very fast attack by P or T, you often might want to pull Drones to buy your Sunken Colonies some time. (Notably, as I said, Firebats have 45 HP and 1 Armor - this means they die in 3 Sunken shots and not 2, and that makes them really good "tank" units for this very specific purpose)
3) Some Terran strats, especially early attacks, involve pulling SCVs to build a bunker on top of a morphing Zerg expansion, and you can also launch similar attacks with just a handful of Marines, Vultures, a Tank, and some SCVs to help repair and soak Dragoon shots.
4) Extremely cheesy Zerg vs Zerg strat allows you to build Sunken Colonies on enemy creep.
5) Protoss can build a "manner pylon" in the middle of your mineral patches early on to block your workers from gathering minerals.

But yeah, most "underused units" are simply underused due to opportunity cost. You don't see capital ships because by the time you can get to them, you are often dead from the investment you made and not having enough stuff on the field. You don't see heavy anti-air that much because ground-based armies are usually more versatile and the investment to keep you safe from the air doesn't do much if it's the ground you have to watch. You used not to see Queens because Terran vs Zerg relies on having a ton of Science Vessels, and those are more than capable of hunting down Queens. But now that more and more Terrans forsake the vessels because they need the gas for Siege Tanks, Queens are more free to Carpet Broodling entire Terran armies. This is the same in Wc3 - you can technically go mass Banshees and try to possess the entire enemy army, but by the time your Banshees are in critical mass, you might very well be dead because you aren't really pressuring much with them. You can technically rely on Necromancers, but the Meat Wagon (which synergizes with Necro) is a poor unit and their schtick is countered by an item that's worth like, what, 200 gold in a Goblin Shop?
 
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ChaDargo

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
425
Location
Texas
ChaDargo - thanks, but I'm not really even read manuals, neither i'm willing to read guide's. They are spoilers to me.

=====[this is not personal attack against anyone, just typing on the flow]=====
Not sure from where come this elitism* attitude, that from my gaming&posting endeavour's, only come from Starcraft [not warcraft, not age of empires, not total annihilation, even Counter Strike is more accessible, maybe LoL (i never follow) players think higher of themselves]

I [noob] and SC-fan [Pro] have different approach to the subject - sacred BroodWar. Pro trying to persuade Noob that chess, are the perfect game, while noob telling pro, it would make more sens if Queen was not the most powerful unit, and King should be more viable, as combat unit. And tower should'nt move.

I'd like to explain this a bit and then we can drop it since it is off-topic. Thing is, I agree that the SCBW community has been quite different like you said.

I think it's fair to say that CS 1.6 and SCBW were the first truly professional e-sports, but even more with SCBW because of KeSPA: as far as I know, this organization and its use of SCBW marked the first time in history where people could attain wide-spread fame--national, televised fame--because of playing a game for a living. In Korea, SCBW was comparable to a sport here in America, where you could become part of a team at a young age, work your way up the ranks, and then play for a living (usually until mandatory military service).

I think that anyone outside of Korea who was familiar with this fact and a fan or a competitive player took particular pride in being a part of this unique moment in history. Unfortunately, a lot of people let this pride get carried away. Despite the fact that almost no one outside of Korea has ever been even remotely competitive in the Korean scene (due to a ton of factors), people still believed, simply by the virtue of playing this unique game, that they were somehow part of an elite class.

There's obviously more to it than that. Cultural things, the age of the game, the fact that it actually is hard to master mechanically, all sorts of things. But I think what I wrote above is a pretty big part of the negativity you've noticed.
 
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ChaDargo

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
425
Location
Texas
Lagi, I'm perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that your post wasn't meant to be inherently inflammatory. I might have taken an issue with tone - it didn't seem like you were making your own observations but stating some misguided facts.
I do believe though that SCBW is a perfectly fine for both casual and pro players. Most of BW's scene was quite casual, and there's no shame in spending your time mostly in team games, money maps, or UMS games. Some of the issues you speak of, e.g. that Battlecruisers are useless because "they are a resource dumpster", kinda didn't make sense when you, in the same breath, assert Carriers are not one, when in reality, in many casual games, 5-6 BCs are already a massive obstacle to most players and generally even have a good matchup against Carriers in a straight up fight (of course, though, Protoss support units would definitely turn the tide here). I really like going MMF in fast 2v2/3v3 games as Terran, it's quite intense and the damage is rewarding, and team games tend to go by their own, volatile rules (you spend way more time building "tier 1" stuff).
And although I did encounter quite a wee bit of salt from the SC community, I've also met many great friends through the game and observed some absolutely terrific community members in both SC1 and SC2. Day9 sticks out here greatly, the man's material on how the game is played is absolutely delightful.
All I'm saying is that there are underused units in many games, and that their status somewhat contributes to depth - I propose SC wasn't fully "discovered" yet, that Queen strat with ZvT was sufficiently explored only like, 2 years ago? Which is pretty nice for something that's purportedly a "ded gaem'.
But yeah, I retract the confrontational attitude from the takedown of your points, and apologise.

FIREBAT: good its unit vs Zerg. If he get buffed, to be used as melee vs other race, would FB become worse?
Well, you see, it's not really that Firebats are specifically bad against non-Zerg, it's that infantry based strats are generally just not good against Terran and Protoss as well. Terran run circles around mass Marines the moment Vultures are out, and it gets worse when you have to gradually start passing through Spider Mine fields and fight Siege Tank fire. Protoss, in the meantime, outranges Marines with Dragoon range. Marine-based strats are generally extremely early game oriented, cheese rushes, or extremely specific. Look at this game where the Terran attempts to kill his Protoss opponent fast by sacrificing his entire economy and going for a fast Marine attack. On ASL4, Flash vs Bisu Game 4 saw Bisu go superfast Carriers and Flash's response was considered to be trolling by some members of the community (he was 2:0 by that time in the game and Bisu took a desperate, unorthodox out), but mass Marines is often a correct response to a Carrier rush because they rip Interceptors apart and deal well with the conversely much smaller and worse supported land army; you can't afford as many Zeals/Goons when you're rushing Stargates / Fleet Beacon, and your tech elsewhere suffers as well (vastly delayed Reavers to decimate the infantry). Firebats getting a buff would probably make Sunken busts stronger (and TvZ is already quite much harder on the Zerg early on), but they'd still be only used against Zerg and *maybe* Zealot-heavy armies. But they're still quite specifically a TvZ unit because infantry as a whole is generally TvZ.

I'm afraid to said that I used SCV to shield my Marines [is it approved tactic? or should i be ashamed for wasting mineral income - should I study net for the correct answers?].
Frankly, it depends. Worker pulling is very common for all races depending on what's going on:
1) If you get Zergling rushed as either P or T, your best bet is to surround your Marine / Zealot with peons.
2) When you're Zerg and hit by a very fast attack by P or T, you often might want to pull Drones to buy your Sunken Colonies some time. (Notably, as I said, Firebats have 45 HP and 1 Armor - this means they die in 3 Sunken shots and not 2, and that makes them really good "tank" units for this very specific purpose)
3) Some Terran strats, especially early attacks, involve pulling SCVs to build a bunker on top of a morphing Zerg expansion, and you can also launch similar attacks with just a handful of Marines, Vultures, a Tank, and some SCVs to help repair and soak Dragoon shots.
4) Extremely cheesy Zerg vs Zerg strat allows you to build Sunken Colonies on enemy creep.
5) Protoss can build a "manner pylon" in the middle of your mineral patches early on to block your workers from gathering minerals.

But yeah, most "underused units" are simply underused due to opportunity cost. You don't see capital ships because by the time you can get to them, you are often dead from the investment you made and not having enough stuff on the field. You don't see heavy anti-air that much because ground-based armies are usually more versatile and the investment to keep you safe from the air doesn't do much if it's the ground you have to watch. You used not to see Queens because Terran vs Zerg relies on having a ton of Science Vessels, and those are more than capable of hunting down Queens. But now that more and more Terrans forsake the vessels because they need the gas for Siege Tanks, Queens are more free to Carpet Broodling entire Terran armies. This is the same in Wc3 - you can technically go mass Banshees and try to possess the entire enemy army, but by the time your Banshees are in critical mass, you might very well be dead because you aren't really pressuring much with them. You can technically rely on Necromancers, but the Meat Wagon (which synergizes with Necro) is a poor unit and their schtick is countered by an item that's worth like, what, 200 gold in a Goblin Shop?

I would brofist your post but I can't use those functions yet lol:bro:
 

deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
4,352
Location
UK
So has anyone tried that new patch yet? It's in open beta isn't it?
Also, does it work with cracked copies? I lost my CD a long ass time ago.
 

Wirdschowerdn

Ph.D. in World Saving
Patron
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
34,471
Location
Clogging the Multiverse with a Crowbar
Warcraft 3 patch 1.29 is now out for all:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/bnet/topic/20762137149

Hail Warchiefs, Liches, Commanders, and Keepers,

Our sincere thanks to the Classic forums, the pros, the mapmakers, the players, r/WC3, Discord (Warcraft 3 United), and the horde of other fans who reached out to help make this patch Rexxar approved. Classic is by your side on this journey.

Grab your favorite beverage and snacks, there's a lot to cover:

Specific Changes & Improvements
Widescreen support added. To prevent stretching there have been changes to the interfaces:

Added bookends to the in-game interface
Added black pillars in menus


Game lobbies expanded to support 24 players. We’ve added 12 new team colors. Thanks to Erkan and others for contributing to the new palette:

Player 13 - Maroon
Player 14 - Navy
Player 15 - Turquoise
Player 16 - Violet
Player 17 - Wheat
Player 18 - Peach
Player 19 - Mint
Player 20 - Lavender
Player 21 - Coal
Player 22 - Snow
Player 23 - Emerald
Player 24 - Peanut


Notes

Ladder standings have been reset; good luck and have fun on the climb
Replays are incompatible between major game versions
This will be the last version to support Windows XP
Automated tournaments will resume next week


Bug Fixes

Clans can be created
Mac launches
Korean locale launches
Various missing textures located (Thanks to TriggerHappy for the test map)
Default resolution no longer resembles Felwood
Ladder maps cleansed of sneaky tower locations near starting mines



Known Issues

Temporarily disabled Fixed Aspect Ratio in Video Options
Chaos Kodo Beasts are showing as idle workers in campaign missions
Unable to input text while keyboard settings are under different languages in zhCN and koKR locales
Certain elements in World Editor overlap
Set/GetAbilityOnXXXX functions are renamed to Set/GetAbilityActivatedXXXX
SetUnitNameAll is disabled for now
PlaySpecialEffect is disabled for now
PlaySpecialEffectWithTimeScale is disabled for now
Crash: With an ability that has "Disabled"=false, attempting to set "Disabled" to false again will crash the World Editor
UnitDisableAbility does not hide an ability with Hide=true and Disabled=false
Default map directory is for from maps when creating custom games
Resolution does not change properly when switching between windowed and full screen
Tooltips for hero abilities may not be updated



Hero Balance Changes

Mountain King
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Stormbolt

Level 2: Reduce damage from 225 to 210
Level 3: Reduce damage from 350 to 325


Thunder Clap

Level 1: Increased damage from 60 to 65; Increased area of effect from 25 to 30
Level 2: Increased damage from 100 to 125; Increased area of effect from 30 to 35
Level 3: Increased damage from 140 to 175; Increased area of effect from 35 to 40


Paladin
Attack Speed

Reduced cooldown from 2.2 to 2.0 seconds


Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Divine Shield

Level 2: Reduced duration from 30 to 25
Level 3: Reduced duration from 45 to 35


Blademaster
Mirror Image

Reduced Mana cost from 115 to 100 for all levels


Critical Strike

Removed + damage item interaction from multiplier calculation: (Avg Damage + Item Damage)*Critical Multiplier = Total Damage
Prior calculation: (Avg Damage *Critical Multiplier) + Item Damage = Total Damage


Far Seer
Feral Spirit

Level 1: Increased unit healths from 200 to 250
Level 2: Increased unit healths from 300 to 350; Reduced unit level from 4 to 3 to reduce enemy experience reward
Level 3: Reduced unit level from 5 to 4 to reduce enemy experience reward


Chain Lightning

Reduced damage reduction from 15% to 10% per jump for all levels


Far Sight

Level 1: Removed mana cost; Added a cooldown of 60 seconds
Level 2: Removed mana cost; Added a cooldown of 45 seconds
Level 3: Removed mana cost; Added a cooldown of 30 seconds


Shadow Hunter
Serpent Wards

Level 1: Increased damage from 11-13 to 14-16; Increased health from 75 to 90
Level 2: Increased damage from 23-26 to 27-30; Increased health from 135 to 165
Level 3: Increased damage from 41-45 to 48-52; Increased health from 135 to 200


Tauren Chieftain
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


War Stomp

Level 1: Increased damage from 25 to 30
Level 2: Increased damage from 50 to 60
Level 3: Increased damage from 75 to 90


Reincarnation

Reduced spellcast from 7 seconds to 5 seconds


Crypt Lord
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Carrion Beetles

Level 1: Increased health from 140 to 170; Increase movement speed from 270 to 290
Level 2: Increased health from 275 to 330; Increase movement speed from 270 to 290
Level 3: Increased health from 410 to 490; Increase movement speed from 270 to 290


Impale

Level 1: Increased damage from 50 to 75
Level 2: Increased damage from 80 to 120
Level 3: Increased damage from 110 to 165


Dread Lord
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Carrion Swarm

Level 1: Increased maximum damage from 300 to 400
Level 2: Increased maximum damage from 600 to 700
Level 3: Increased maximum damage from 1000 to 1200
Mana Cost reduced from 110 to 100 for all levels
Now damages mechanical units


Sleep

Cooldown reduced from 6 seconds to 4 seconds for all levels
Level 1: Reduced duration from 20 (5) sec to 15 (4) sec; Reduced mana cost from 100 to 80
Level 2: Reduced duration from 40 (10) sec to 35 (8) sec; Reduced mana cost from 75 to 65
Level 3: Reduced duration from 60 (15) sec to 55 (12) sec


Vampiric Aura

Level 1: Increased life steal from 15% to 20%
Level 2: Increased life steal from 30% to 35%
Level 3: Increased life steal from 45% to 50%


Lich
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Demon Hunter
Mana Burn

Increased mana cost from 50 to 60 for all levels


Keeper of the Grove
Intelligence

Increased default value from 18 to 19


Tranquility

Added 3 seconds of invulnerability on spellcast
Reduced duration from 30 seconds to 15 seconds
Increased healing per second from 20 to 40


Entangling Roots

Level 2: Reduced duration on units from 24 seconds to 18 seconds; Increased duration on heroes from 3 seconds to 5 seconds; Increased damage per second from 15 damage to 20 damage
Level 3: Reduced duration on units from 36 seconds to 30 seconds; Increased duration on heroes from 5 seconds to 7 seconds; Increased damage per second from 25 Damage to 30 Damage


Force of Nature

Increased Treant attack damage from 14 to 16


Priestess of the Moon
Attack Speed

Reduced cooldown from 2.46 to 2.33 seconds


Scout

Increased speed from 270 to 300
Level 1: Reduced mana cost from 100 to 50
Level 2: Reduced mana cost from 75 to 50


Warden
Blink

Level 2: Reduced cooldown from 10 seconds to 7 seconds
Level 3: Increased cooldown from 1 second to 4 seconds


Dark Ranger
Life Drain

Increase damage done per second and lower mana cost
Level 1: Increase damage per second from 25 to 30; Reduce Mana cost from 75 to 50
Level 2: Increase damage per second from 40 to 45, Reduce Mana cost from 75 to 50
Level 3: Increase damage per second from 55 to 60, Reduce Mana cost from 75 to 50


Firelord
Incinerate

Level 1: Increased bonus damage multiplier per stack from 1 to 2; Increased death by incineration damage full area from 90 to 120; Increased death by incineration damage half area from 180 to 240; Increased duration from 2 to 4
Level 2: Increased bonus damage multiplier per stack from 2 to 3; Increased death by incineration damage full area from 90 to 120; Increased death by incineration damage half area from 180 to 240; Increased duration from 2 to 4
Level 3: Increased bonus damage multiplier per stack from 3 to 4; Increased death by incineration damage full area from 100 to 120; Increased death by incineration damage half area from 180 to 240; Increased duration from 2 to 4


Soul Burn

Level 1: Increased duration on units from 14 seconds to 16 seconds; Increased duration on heroes from 6 seconds to 7 seconds; Increased damage from 100 to 125
Level 2: Increased duration on units from 16 seconds to 18 seconds; Increased duration on heroes from 7 seconds to 8 seconds; Increased damage from 225 to 270
Level 3: Increased duration on units from 18 seconds to 20 seconds; Increased duration on heroes from 8 seconds to 9 seconds; Increased damage from 375 to 450


Goblin Alchemist
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Healing Spray

No longer heals enemy units
Heals Alchemist


Acid Bomb

Level 1: Increased Damage from 5 to 8 (total damage 75 to 120; Secondary damage 3 to 5)
Level 2: Increased Damage from 10 to 13 (total damage 150 to 195; Secondary damage 6.5 to 8.5)
Level 3: Increased Damage from 15 to 18 (total damage 225 to 270; Secondary damage 10 to 12)


Goblin Tinker
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Cluster Rockets

Now targets air units
Level 1: Increased damage from 35 to 45 damage per second
Level 2: Increased damage from 65 to 75 damage per second
Level 3: Increased damage from 100 to 110 damage per second


Naga Sea Witch
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290


Pandaren Brewmaster
Movement Speed

Increased base speed from 270 to 290



Map Pool

1v1

(2)TerenasStand_LV
(2)Plunderisle_LV
(2)TheTwoRivers_LV
(2)RoadToStratholme_LV
(2)EchoIsle
(2)TirisfalGlades_LV
(2)Amazonia(COMMUNITY)
(2)LastRefuge-1.3(COMMUNITY)
(4)Floodplains1v1_LV
(4)TwistedMeadows
(4)TurtleRock


2v2

(4)PhantomGrove_LV
(4)Avalanche_LV
(4)TurtleRock
(4)Duskwood_LV
(4)BridgeTooNear_LV
(4)FrozenClover_LV
(4)TidewaterGlades_LV
(4)LostTemple
(4)TwistedMeadows
(6)Duststorm_LV
(6)GnollWood


3v3
(6)ThunderLake_LV
(6)GnollWood
(6)Monsoon_LV
(6)DarkForest
(6)UpperKingdom
(6)RuinsOfStratholme
(8)Mur’gulOasis_LV
(6)RollingHills
(6)TimbermawHold
(6)StranglethornVale
(8)Battleground_LV
4v4

(8)Feralas_LV
(8)Northshire_LV
(8)Sanctuary_LV
(8)TwilightRuins_LV
(8)Battleground_LV
(8)Deadlock_LV
(8)GolemsInTheMist_LV
(8)Mur’gulOasis_LV
(8)MarketSquare
(8)GoldRush
(8)Friends
(8)BlastedLands


FFA

(4)Deathrose
(6)Duststorm_LV
(6)EmeraldShores
(6)StranglethornVale
(6)Monsoon_LV
(6)ThunderLake_LV
(8)Deadlock_LV
(8)Mur’gulOasis_LV
(8)TwilightRuins_LV
(8)Battleground_LV



World Editor Upgrades

Object Limit: 30,000
Neutral Units: 2,048
Neutral Buildings: 384
Player Units: 4,320
Player Buildings: 2,400
Items: 1,024
Map Size Limit: 480 x 480
Tile Slot Limit: 16
Max Execution Limit: 3,000,000
Max Food Limit: 999
Max Resource Limit: 9,999,999
Array Size Limit: 32,768
"Always show Health Bars" now shows Mana Bars as well



New Natives

native GetTriggerPlayerMouseX: takes nothing returns real
native GetTriggerPlayerMouseY: takes nothing returns real
native GetTriggerPlayerMousePosition: takes nothing returns location
native GetTriggerPlayerMouseButton: takes nothing returns mousebuttontype
native SetAbilityTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string tooltip, integer level returns nothing
native SetAbilityActivatedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string tooltip, integer level returns nothing
native SetAbilityExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string ExtendedTooltip, integer level returns nothing
native SetAbilityActivatedExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string ExtendedTooltip, integer level returns nothing
native SetAbilityResearchTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string researchTooltip, integer level returns nothing
native SetAbilityResearchExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, string researchExtendedTooltip, integer level returns nothing
native GetAbilityTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native GetAbilityActivatedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native GetAbilityExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native GetAbilityActivatedExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native GetAbilityResearchTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native GetAbilityResearchExtendedTooltip: takes integer abilCode, integer level returns string
native SetAbilityIcon: takes integer abilCode, string iconPath returns nothing
native GetAbilityIcon: takes integer abilCode returns string
native SetAbilityActivatedIcon: takes integer abilCode, string iconPath returns nothing
native GetAbilityActivatedIcon: takes integer abilCode returns string
native GetAbilityPosX: takes integer abilCode returns integer
native GetAbilityPosY: takes integer abilCode returns integer
native SetAbilityPosX: takes integer abilCode, integer x returns nothing
native SetAbilityPosY: takes integer abilCode, integer y returns nothing
native GetAbilityActivatedPosX: takes integer abilCode returns integer
native GetAbilityActivatedPosY: takes integer abilCode returns integer
native SetAbilityActivatedPosX: takes integer abilCode, integer x returns nothing
native SetAbilityActivatedPosY: takes integer abilCode, integer y returns nothing
native GetUnitMaxHP: takes unit whichUnit returns integer
native SetUnitMaxHP: takes unit whichUnit, integer hp returns nothing
native GetUnitMaxMana: takes unit whichUnit returns integer
native SetUnitMaxMana: takes unit whichUnit, integer mana returns nothing
native DeleteHeroAbility: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilCode returns nothing
native SetItemName: takes item whichItem, string name returns nothing
native SetItemDescription: takes item whichItem, string name returns nothing
native GetItemDescription: takes item whichItem returns string
native SetItemTooltip: takes item whichItem, string name returns nothing
native GetItemTooltip: takes item whichItem returns string
native SetItemExtendedTooltip: takes item whichItem, string name returns nothing
native GetItemExtendedTooltip: takes item whichItem returns string
native SetItemIconPath: takes item whichItem, string name returns nothing
native GetItemIconPath: takes item whichItem returns string
native SetUnitName: takes unit whichUnit, string name returns nothing
native SetHeroProperName: takes unit whichUnit, string name returns nothing
native GetUnitBaseDamage: takes unit whichUnit, integer weaponIndex returns integer
native SetUnitBaseDamage: takes unit whichUnit, integer baseDamage, integer weaponIndex returns nothing
native GetUnitDiceNumber: takes unit whichUnit, integer weaponIndex returns integer
native SetUnitDiceNumber: takes unit whichUnit, integer diceNumber, integer weaponIndex returns nothing
native GetUnitDiceSides: takes unit whichUnit, integer weaponIndex returns integer
native SetUnitDiceSides: takes unit whichUnit, integer diceSides, integer weaponIndex returns nothing
native GetUnitAttackCooldown: takes unit whichUnit, integer weaponIndex returns real
native SetUnitAttackCooldown: takes unit whichUnit, real cooldown, integer weaponIndex returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectColorByPlayer: takes effect whichEffect, player whichPlayer returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectColor: takes effect whichEffect, integer r, integer g, integer b returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectAlpha: takes effect whichEffect, integer alpha returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectScale: takes effect whichEffect, real scale returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectPosition: takes effect whichEffect, real x, real y, real z returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectHeight: takes effect whichEffect, real height returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectTimeScale: takes effect whichEffect, real timeScale returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectTime: takes effect whichEffect, real time returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectOrientation: takes effect whichEffect, real yaw, real pitch, real roll returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectYaw: takes effect whichEffect, real yaw returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectPitch: takes effect whichEffect, real pitch returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectRoll: takes effect whichEffect, real roll returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectX: takes effect whichEffect, real x returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectY: takes effect whichEffect, real y returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectZ: takes effect whichEffect, real z returns nothing
native SetSpecialEffectPositionLoc: takes effect whichEffect, location loc returns nothing
native GetLocalSpecialEffectX: takes effect whichEffect returns real
native GetLocalSpecialEffectY: takes effect whichEffect returns real
native GetLocalSpecialEffectZ: takes effect whichEffect returns real
native GetUnitArmor: takes unit whichUnit returns real
native SetUnitArmor: takes unit whichUnit, real armorAmount returns nothing
native UnitHideAbility: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId, boolean flag returns nothing
native UnitDisableAbility: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId, boolean flag, boolean hideUI returns nothing
native UnitCancelTimedLife: takes unit whichUnit returns nothing
native IsUnitSelectable: takes unit whichUnit returns boolean
native IsUnitInvulnerable: takes unit whichUnit returns boolean
native UnitInterruptAttack: takes unit whichUnit returns nothing
native GetUnitCollisionSize: takes unit whichUnit returns real
native GetAbilityManaCost: takes integer abilId, integer level returns integer
native GetAbilityCooldown: takes integer abilId, integer level returns real
native SetUnitAbilityCooldown: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId, integer level, real cooldown returns nothing
native GetUnitAbilityCooldown: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId, integer level returns real
native GetUnitAbilityCooldownRemaining: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId returns real
native EndUnitAbilityCooldown: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilCode returns nothing
native GetUnitAbilityManaCost: takes unit whichUnit, integer abilId, integer level returns integer
native GetLocalUnitZ: takes unit whichUnit returns real
native DecPlayerTechResearched: takes player whichPlayer, integer techid, integer levels returns nothing
native SetEventDamage: takes real damage returns nothing



You made it! Don't worry, that last bit was a completely different language for me too... What are you still doing here? Go play some Warcraft.

Cheers,
Classic
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Some people seem to think this was done as part of selling a WarCraft 3 remaster. While that may end up happening, I think we are seeing something else.

There are a few classes of employees at a big company like blizzard. There's people who decide which projects are greenlit, people who build the projects, and interns that participate in what is essentially a low-productivity extended interview (often with government tax breaks to subsidize salary).

Looking at the patch notes, a couple of things stand out. This project was probably done in multiple phases for multiple reasons.

-The widescreen support and player cap increase were probably done first so the engine could be used internally to prototype WarCraft 4 and/or a new game mode to see if some designer's idea to combine PUBG with RTS would be fun.
-The list of new editor functionality seems to support that.
-The balance design changes were probably a teaching exercise for a junior designer or some design interns.
-Patch was cleaned up and released publicly to measure appetite for starting a remaster.
 

ortucis

Prophet
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
2,015
Fucking Blizzard ruining all the old mods compatibility (haven't updated my mods since ages ago). :P
 

Irata

Scholar
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
304
I was a huge fan of Westwood's and Ensemble's RTS games, but I don't think even Warcraft 4 could revitalize the genre at this moment of time. Starcraft 2 didn't make much of a splash and every recent RTS game hasn't fared very well. I'd be a little surprised if the powers-that-be at nu-Blizzard would take a chance on a big budget, PC only game in a genre that isn't the in thing.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
I was a huge fan of Westwood's and Ensemble's RTS games, but I don't think even Warcraft 4 could revitalize the genre at this moment of time. Starcraft 2 didn't make much of a splash and every recent RTS game hasn't fared very well. I'd be a little surprised if the powers-that-be at nu-Blizzard would take a chance on a big budget, PC only game in a genre that isn't the in thing.
Starcraft 2 was a poorly executed nostalgia play. The remaster was what people wanted. Warcraft 3 was smart to mix up the RTS formula a little with the hero focus and upkeep mechanic.

I could see WarCraft 4 having a mode that is blended with something closer to Dota. For example, the player would pick buildings, upgrades, when to expand, and control a small band of hero/champion units. The game would automatically produce units from those buildings and send them down 'lanes', leaving the player with less of a mindless upkeep clicking test.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Starcraft 2 was a poorly executed nostalgia play.
This makes no sense to me. Starcraft 2 plays barely like its precedessor and hardly anyone still playing Brood War at the time was nostalgic. You're "nostalgic" when you're clamoring for old times that are gone, and when SC2 was announced the BW scene was still a huge e-sport. sAviOr's matchfixing scandal (which happened around SC2's release) arguably put a massive dent in BW's legacy, but at that time we can't talk about nostalgia. SC2 was meant to be a completely new game using one of their most popular IPs that was supposed to, in effect, replace BW. It didn't work for many reasons, but the end result wasn't a bad game. Not in the sense of "literally unplayable trash" anyway, and as someone who jumps into co-op commander and team games with friends it's still probably one of the more fun RTSes on the market right now. Like, Blizzard was always known for having a handful of IPs and releasing one big motherfucker of a game every few years that got everyone hyped about it. That's like saying Diablo 3 was a "nostalgia play" on Diablo 2. No it wasn't, they just wanted to make money off their successful IPs.

It's also difficult to say it "hasn't made a splash" when it did have pretty extensive coverage and player numbers, at least in its first years. It was a massive victim (or the instigator?) of the tension between KeSPA and Blizzard, as well as Blizzard making the game pretty damn inaccessible (they banked on the hardcore 1v1 group but failed to accomodate the casual players), but I don't think it was a complete failure as many assume it was. (Although the campaign storyline was trash)

Like I'm pretty willing to acknowledge anyone who says the game is shit (though I'd disagree, but this isn't a SC thread), but... nostalgia play? Eh.

I also don't see Blizzard making a proper WarIV when they're still milking WoW expansions for all their story needs. At best, I'd see a collection of side-stories pertaining to what's currently going on with the whole battle of Azeroth thing, but they do most of their storytelling through their steadfast, secure moneymaker.

Someone a long while ago mentioned something about the new Warcraft being some sort of a mobile game, but I also don't know how legitimate that info was.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
637
Location
Kangaroo Island
If anybody actually watched the Warcraft 3 LAN that Blizzard had about a month ago, one of the Blizzard guys that was interviewed said there's no WC3 remaster plans. They want to make balance patches until the game's at Brood War's level of balance, and then they might think about it later.
I mean, really, the game still works on peoples computers and looks just fine. We're more likely to see D2:R first.

Also, say what you will about SC2 sucking (I won't disagree, because it sucks), but to say it had zero impact, or "barely made a splash", or "was a poorly executed nostalgia play", is just retarded and comes from not actually looking at the facts of what went on. It was the first modern esport, it proved to the world that esports could be profitable and it's not just Korea being weird, and it stayed a pretty huge fixture of esports in general until about 2014-2015 i.e for five years. Even now that it's declined a little and might not ever see its peak again, it's still a profitable game and tournaments have a pretty large number of concurrent viewers. Without SC2, a lot of the modern competitive infrastructure for gaming in general outside of Korea just wouldn't be there. I hate the game, but saying nobody cares or cared about it is just a bit daft.
 

Bad Jim

Novice
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
24
Starcraft 2 was a poorly executed nostalgia play. The remaster was what people wanted.

The remaster was what Korean pros wanted, not what the average gamer wanted. Starcraft 2 has some significant UI improvements over Broodwar, like being able to select any number of units, select multiple buildings, rally workers to minerals, find idle workers with a keypress, smartcasting, autocasting etc. Only one of these UI improvements made it into the remaster - widescreen support. It is true that they would affect game balance, but they would also make the game more fun to play, and the game could have been rebalanced. If you want to enjoy the Broodwar campaigns, the superior product is Starcraft 2 + Mass Recall mod, not the remaster.

Starcraft 2 is a decent game too. The story for the campaign doesn't hold up against the BW story, but the missions are better. They usually have some sort of gimmick, and the fact that they tend to have time constraints makes them more interesting to play than the Broodwar missions which are mostly just massing a big army in your own time and then attacking. Having difficulty settings is also a major plus, as the majority of Broodwar missions are far too easy. It was essentially one game for the price of three, but it wasn't shit.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
It is true that they would affect game balance, but they would also make the game more fun to play, and the game could have been rebalanced.
Except nobody wants to play "rebalanced Brood War with new mechanics", they want to play Brood War, because all of the mechanics that it lacks when compared with SC2 somehow manage to contribute to the game as its strength. If people wanted to play Starcraft but with all those UI improvements, they'd just play Starcraft 2. Besides, Brood War has been a more or less perfectly balanced game for 16 years - is it worth it to throw it all away to add stuff that not a lot of people actually want, and then have to figure out how to rebalance all of *that* stuff? Brood War Zerg in a SC2 environment would be absurd. And SC2 engine has many more ramifications on the gameplay - such as the way that the units blob together greatly changes the way engagements work in the two games.

I agree with the second paragraph in your post, mostly, but it's rather far out to imply that nobody wants to play Brood War right now. The ongoing Afreeca Starleague (today, in fact, was Shuttle vs Rain, Protoss vs Protoss action) still gathers quite a few spectators in the venue during the event, and there are still foreigners playing the game and making small leagues.

As someone who has both Starcrafts installed right now and plays both (but leans towards BW) I wouldn't really say the SC2 QoL changes necessarily make it "more fun" to play. Point is, the remaster was released like 7 years after SC2. It's too late to be making any large changes to Brood War - the community that actually stays with it and plays it loves the mechanics it has, and wouldn't want to play the game if these mechanics were changed. Let BW be its own game and SC2 be its own game, they're both rather great at that.

I'd also like to point out that, with all of the changes in the transition to the SC2 engine that were supposed to make the game more accessible to the average gamer, Blizzard certainly fucked up when figuring out the focus of the game (the game was almost entirely focused on the hardcore competitive 1v1 scene, any player interaction has been stripped compared to B.net 1.0, the map editor was extremely unwieldy compared with the one from WC3, custom map / community server support was non-existent, Blizzard restricting its own Arcade Mode just because of the mistake that was losing out on DotA money, the game's unique ID system made it difficult for Koreans to enjoy in PCBangs, and, of course, the game cost 60$, with a promise to have to buy it two more times to keep playing competitively, when League of Legends and other F2P games were experiencing their boom) and nowadays neither Starcraft is certainly a top watched game on Twitch, nor are the usual circles for Starcraft (such as Teamliquid or /r/starcraft) particularly alive.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Starcraft 2 was a poorly executed nostalgia play. The remaster was what people wanted.

The remaster was what Korean pros wanted, not what the average gamer wanted. Starcraft 2 has some significant UI improvements over Broodwar, like being able to select any number of units, select multiple buildings, rally workers to minerals, find idle workers with a keypress, smartcasting, autocasting etc. Only one of these UI improvements made it into the remaster - widescreen support. It is true that they would affect game balance, but they would also make the game more fun to play, and the game could have been rebalanced. If you want to enjoy the Broodwar campaigns, the superior product is Starcraft 2 + Mass Recall mod, not the remaster.

Starcraft 2 is a decent game too. The story for the campaign doesn't hold up against the BW story, but the missions are better. They usually have some sort of gimmick, and the fact that they tend to have time constraints makes them more interesting to play than the Broodwar missions which are mostly just massing a big army in your own time and then attacking. Having difficulty settings is also a major plus, as the majority of Broodwar missions are far too easy. It was essentially one game for the price of three, but it wasn't shit.
This is a confusing statement. Sure, they removed some clicking with the control groups, etc. but they also added back mechanics specifically for the purpose of forcing people to pointlessly click to maintain normal production speed. (larvae, nexus boost, etc)
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
This is a confusing statement. Sure, they removed some clicking with the control groups, etc. but they also added back mechanics specifically for the purpose of forcing people to pointlessly click to maintain normal production speed. (larvae, nexus boost, etc)
It's not and hasn't ever been "pointless clicking", it's just an interpretation of how the "real time" component of "real time strategy" actually plays into the game. High speed in RTS games isn't achieved by smashing your head against the keyboard, it's achieved by being able to quickly formulate the next step in your gameplay and remembering the things that need to be done. Large-scale micro is more impressive to watch and very engaging to play when you only have 12 units in a control group and you have to decide which units make it to your control groups and which units have to just be magic-boxed to get where you want them to. The point of Starcraft is that you can't be everywhere at once and wherever you make concessions to your control, some other place suffers. It's like a high-speed rhythm game that you play against an opponent, and the opponent is capable of wrestling your guitar away from you - while trying his best not to miss his own notes. You can't perfectly control your army without staggering your production somewhat and vice versa. Only pros come close to that, but even they make mistakes. The mechanical component makes Starcraft exciting to play, and it is by no means "pointless" - in Starcraft, it often serves to enhance the strategic component. Being unable to perfectly control forces, for example, really gives a certain level of depth to entrenchments and setting defensive positions.
 

ChaDargo

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
425
Location
Texas
This is a confusing statement. Sure, they removed some clicking with the control groups, etc. but they also added back mechanics specifically for the purpose of forcing people to pointlessly click to maintain normal production speed. (larvae, nexus boost, etc)
It's not and hasn't ever been "pointless clicking", it's just an interpretation of how the "real time" component of "real time strategy" actually plays into the game. High speed in RTS games isn't achieved by smashing your head against the keyboard, it's achieved by being able to quickly formulate the next step in your gameplay and remembering the things that need to be done. Large-scale micro is more impressive to watch and very engaging to play when you only have 12 units in a control group and you have to decide which units make it to your control groups and which units have to just be magic-boxed to get where you want them to. The point of Starcraft is that you can't be everywhere at once and wherever you make concessions to your control, some other place suffers. It's like a high-speed rhythm game that you play against an opponent, and the opponent is capable of wrestling your guitar away from you - while trying his best not to miss his own notes. You can't perfectly control your army without staggering your production somewhat and vice versa. Only pros come close to that, but even they make mistakes. The mechanical component makes Starcraft exciting to play, and it is by no means "pointless" - in Starcraft, it often serves to enhance the strategic component. Being unable to perfectly control forces, for example, really gives a certain level of depth to entrenchments and setting defensive positions.

I'd like to add something to this in the form of Day9's explanation of why StarCraft's more cumbersome mechanics are what makes it such a great RTS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9F-AZezCU
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
While that may be the state of broodwar, let me remind you of two things:
-Fastest speed was intended as a joke, not the primary mode of play. So not everything that settled out was by design.
-SC2 was a different game and they intentionally shifted focus in other ways. Forcing a high APM requirement on non-pro players is a funny sacred cow for a strategy game to have.
 
Last edited:

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
-Fastest speed was intended as a joke, not the primary mode of play. So not everything that settled out was by design.
The vast majority of players ended up adopting the Fastest speed. You see it even on the most casual Use Map Settings modes. Fastest plays the best, that's the consensus pretty much the whole community came to. What makes you think it's a "joke" speed?
-SC2 was a different game and they intentionally shifted focus in other ways. Forcing a high APM requirement on non-pro players is a funny sacred cow for a strategy game to have.
No, it's because people who play Starcraft competitively, in any capacity, whether they're fledgling Gold players or Flash himself, generally enjoy the APM requirement. Though I'd like to note that especially SC2 doesn't actually "require" you to have high APM to enjoy it. I routinely run into Platinum players, especially on the Protoss side, who have their APM in the 60s. There are plenty of examples of great players (like Soulkey) who have relatively low APM for pro standards and still win games. High APM is never a "requirement", and is more of a byproduct of how well you play. You don't first learn to press things fast and then learn to play the game. You don't tell a newbie to Starcraft "here, sit in front of this setup and press these buttons as fast as you can". You tell them to remember not to get supply blocked, to constantly make workers, and to keep your factories producing units. Anyone can do that, it doesn't take a pro to do that, and it's very satisfying to see yourself maintain these priorities while maintaining others that emerge during gameplay. There's also plenty of games that definitely aren't nearly as APM intensive, such as Company of Heroes. I love Company of Heroes and generally Relic Entertainment games, but they just play really, really differently, and many of the things that the game does for you come with their own pros and cons. Lastly, once again: RTSes aren't just "strategy" games, they're "real-time" strategy games, and the real-time component is just as important as the strategic component.

Even if you look at the popular games like Overwatch and League of Legends, which arguably do not have nearly as much room for great mechanical performances (since you don't have to painstakingly put an entire army into a position), people still get hyped about seeing sick mechanical plays, and people still love having pulled off some insane clutch plays where they score a lot of kills and barely survive at 4 HP. Starcraft wouldn't have been nearly as exciting if it appealed mainly to armchair strategists.
 

Bad Jim

Novice
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
24
This is a confusing statement. Sure, they removed some clicking with the control groups, etc. but they also added back mechanics specifically for the purpose of forcing people to pointlessly click to maintain normal production speed. (larvae, nexus boost, etc)

Compared to Broodwar, they are scaled back considerably in terms of how much work they require and how screwed you are if you don't get them right. Also, they are not entirely brainless, they do present some interesting decisions to the player like what gets the boost, whether to inject or spread creep, mule vs scan, when to get queens/orbital etc. Whether to put a worker on minerals or have it sit idle is not an interesting decision, there is an obvious correct answer.

Even if you look at the popular games like Overwatch and League of Legends, which arguably do not have nearly as much room for great mechanical performances (since you don't have to painstakingly put an entire army into a position), people still get hyped about seeing sick mechanical plays, and people still love having pulled off some insane clutch plays where they score a lot of kills and barely survive at 4 HP. Starcraft wouldn't have been nearly as exciting if it appealed mainly to armchair strategists.

Something that is conspicuous by it's absence on "pimpest plays" videos is players putting workers on minerals in a timely manner, or keeping 5+ gateways going with little to no queuing. This is strange, because Korean pros do it a lot. It's almost as if no-one gives a flying fuck about that sort of thing and are really interested in the combat.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
Compared to Broodwar, they are scaled back considerably in terms of how much work they require and how screwed you are if you don't get them right.
On the contrary. Day9 points out another issue between BW and SC2 - the fact that the mechanics are extremely hard if not impossible to get perfectly means that BW actually has way, way many more comeback mechanics than SC2, which is a very fast-paced game about hitting timings and perfect responses properly at the highest level, and if you miss these timings, it becomes borderline impossible for you to ever climb back up, since it's much, much harder to disturb an opponent by splitting his attention and deviating him from what's going on in his base, since so much of the macro is automatized.
Also, they are not entirely brainless, they do present some interesting decisions to the player like what gets the boost, whether to inject or spread creep, mule vs scan, when to get queens/orbital etc. Whether to put a worker on minerals or have it sit idle is not an interesting decision, there is an obvious correct answer.
I agree with the first half, that these mechanics are engaging. However, I'd also like to point out that these decisions are fairly obvious in the early game - there's not much decision making to be done with your initial Orbital Command energy, you just want to maximize your eco. As the game progresses, you no longer need to maximize your eco at all times. In Brood War, finding idle workers isn't nearly as much of an issue in the late game - a single worker doesn't make or break a game in the late game, but it's certainly slowing you down early game. You are not asked "do everything perfectly and cycle these workers while managing an important big engagement" - nobody can be asked to do that perfectly, not even the pros. Also, you're forgetting that, as I've said, both SC2 and BW have their own strengths and weaknesses with this approach - and BW's strength mostly lies in that the difficulty in managing your micro and macro means that, for instance, your hotkey allocation changes a lot throughout the game, and you have to really figure out the logistics of moving your army across the map, or microing small engagements. It's extremely impressive to see a 200/200 Zerg force moving across the map, collapsing onto your enemy while carpeting his encampment. Flanking with huge armies in BW also takes a lot of skill. The BW way has strengths and weaknesses - enough to make it distinguished as its own game with its own style, instead of discarding its mechanics as archaic or pointless.

Something that is conspicuous by it's absence on "pimpest plays" videos is players putting workers on minerals in a timely manner, or keeping 5+ gateways going with little to no queuing. This is strange, because Korean pros do it a lot. It's almost as if no-one gives a flying fuck about that sort of thing and are really interested in the combat.
Do you make highlight videos of greatest slam dunks by noting how impeccable Dwight Howard's positioning and strategic mind is at all times? No. So why would you apply this principle to Starcraft pimpest plays? Note that many of the pimpest plays wouldn't be so "pimp" anymore under the SC2 system - look up, for example, iloveoov's perfect marine split against lurkers while keeping in mind how control groups work in SC. Pros and their playstyles vary greatly on their strongest fundamentals and matchups, and they definitely are distinguished for being able to macro like crazy. Flash's greatest strength is that he can routinely max out his army really, really fast while responding to all sorts of threats and always having an answer - hallmarks of solid play. Macro and micro are subsets of mechanics, and they're, generally, rather fun to execute. The community of people who play BW is
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
-Fastest speed was intended as a joke, not the primary mode of play. So not everything that settled out was by design.
The vast majority of players ended up adopting the Fastest speed. You see it even on the most casual Use Map Settings modes. Fastest plays the best, that's the consensus pretty much the whole community came to. What makes you think it's a "joke" speed?
Direct statement from a developer.
 

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