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Warhammer Warhammer: Vermintide 2

Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
Devs fucked up some stuff big time (their test version is different from the steam version everyone is playing, and they apparently didn't bother checking if all the changes went through lol).
This broke the hero power scaling system and many talents...

So now they're saying they'll fix it, but it will make people about 40% weaker in terms of damage on legend difficulty (affects lower difficulties proportionally less), less cleave and stagger as well.
Oh well... It'd be nice if the greatswords had some purpose finally then, but if they're going to be even weaker along with everything else, what's the point?

If you want a good laugh, head over to r/vermintide and read the thread about the bugged hero power, there's an explanation of how their number crunching crap works and it's absolutely hilarious. Internally, hero power goes from 200 (or rahter 185 + 5 + 10 or something like that, I forget) to 1000, but this is scaled to 5-600 in your inventory... Because... Why? The way the game calculates damage is so pointlessly complicated it's hilarious... Criticals and such have to take a weird curve or something into consideration and oh my god why do they do things this way... This is probably the reason why they don't tell you anything of value in the tooltips in game. All of their bizarre math obsession probably makes the game run way more calculations than would really be necessary when fighting hordes. And this is a cpu bound game hahaha

Devs still dragging their feet on QOL improvements, won't even give you the option to show damage numbers... Even though modders have already figured it out. Mod tools will be activated soon apparently, so we can at least look forward to modders fixing the game's many issues.
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143

giphy.gif


a "friend"
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,119
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
I've got about 60 hours sunk in now, almost entirely played with a group of rl friends (about 10 of us, so it's usually possible to get a full group any given night of the week).

I like the game a lot -it's basically Vermintide 1 but with a bit more variety and a higher level of graphical/system optimization- but it is never going to be a Codex-favorite. Balance is all over the place. Some careers are completely unviable above veteran unless you are being carried or have top-tier necklace/ring/trinket from grinding other char, to the point that some of my friends will quit to menu if we happen to get stuck with a pubber playing Shade or Slayer. In general, each character has one career paired with one weapon loadout that VASTLY outperforms all other options.
Melee combat feels great, even more satisfying than in 1. I've mostly played Bardin (duh) with axe/shield + flamethrower, and it never ceases to satisfy when I cleave down on a berserker's head or lop off a Skaven runt's arm. Sounds design strongly plays into this; every *squish*, *thwack*, and *splort* is pitch-perfect and I can't help but grinning like a madman while playing. I don't know if I've ever played a FP game with melee combat that was as satisfying as V2's. 2Handers also feel great from my brief survey of using them, but they definitely seem underpowered compared to the shield builds.

The maps also, overall, have a much greater variety than V1. There are only 2 (out of 13) maps that I groan at when I see the loading screen. Chaos mobs and bosses also go a loooooooong way to breaking up the monotony and extending the game's shelf life. The chaos in particular are very well done. It would have been pretty easy for Fat Shark to just reskin Skaven as Chaos, but they actually put the work in and designed enemies with materially different strengths and weaknesses compared to the skaven. Battles against Skaven, Chaos, or Skaven/Chaos combo will all require you to vary your tactics if you want to handle them optimally.

Regarding the mechanical obfuscation going on under the hood: yeah, it's pretty obtuse, and not great, but it also in no way ruins the game. This is not a game for min-maxing your stats spread to ensure that you deal optimal damage to all enemies. It's a game designed around much more simple and straightforward kinesthenics; can you explode the Sturmvermin's head in 2 *thwacks* or less? No? You might want to lower the difficulty and gear up a bit more. Are you ending runs with full tomes, grims, and health? Yes? Probably time to kick the difficulty up a notch or do some deeds (deeds are the game's version of the bounty system from V1. Basically they're runs with between 1-4 handicaps against the player. There's a good variety of these like "no pickups will spawn", "elite enemies have 2x health and deal 2x damage", "hordes spawn with much greater frequency", etc, and while playing a deed with 1 or 2 handicaps isn't too bad, 3 or more substantially ups the challenge of a map, and sometimes you'll find a combo of even 2 that really makes you rethink your loadout and strategy).

The number one biggest problem I have with the game is the loot system. Basically: items drop with the familiar white, green, blue, orange, red progression. White items suck, Green items have one stat boost, Blue items have 2 stat boosts, Orange have 2 stat boosts and 1 passive trait, Red have 2 stat boosts and 2 passive traits. There is again a wide variety of traits. Some of them are amazing (20% less overheat on my flamethrower) to pretty useless (25% chance not to consume a potion upon use), but they can all be rerolled infinitely through the game's crafting interface until you find one you like. In addition to stat boosts and traits, each item also has a power level assigned to it. Default gear is power level 5 and max level gear is power level 300. Power level is basically the main method of progression through the difficulty levels. It affects damage done, damage taken, stagger/push arc, and... maybe some other stuff? The max power level of items received from completing missions is dependent on the difficulty; on recruit items drop up to 100, vet 200, champ 300, leg 300+ additional chance of red drops, so that you are continually encouraged to attempt higher difficulty levels. All fairly simple, right? Well here's where Fat Shark completely fuck up their progression system and artificially inflate the grind: No matter what difficulty level you've just completed, no matter how many tomes or grims you've collected, no matter how perfectly you completed the level, you will never find an item that is more than 10 power higher than your highest level item. This means that a level 1 character who, on their very first run ever, successfully completes a Champion run will get... a power level 15 (out of 300) item. It's absolutely garbage design, and completely fucking retarded. I don't know how anyone, anywhere would think this would lead to enjoyable progression. Nothing like punishing players for their own high level of skill, eh?

Admittedly this becomes less of a problem when leveling alts, as 3 out of 5 inventory slots are shared amongst all characters, so once you have power level 200 items in those 3 slots on your main, you effectively have them on all other characters as well and higher level items will drop for their 2 class exclusive slots when playing them. It doesn't ruin the game, but it does irritate the shit out of me that anyone would be stupid enough to design loot drops this way.

Anyways, if anyone wants to play, feel free to add me on Steam (same sn, just send me a pm here if your steam name is different from your 'dex sn). Mostly doing full grim/tome Champ runs with the occasional foray into Leg, but I need to level some alts too so I'd be down for vet/recruit runs.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
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Indy
Some careers are completely unviable above veteran unless you are being carried or have top-tier necklace/ring/trinket from grinding other char, to the point that some of my friends will quit to menu if we happen to get stuck with a pubber playing Shade or Slayer.

Not entirely true. There are some classes that might be cheesy and easier to master than others (I'm looking at Ironbreaker). It really depends on the set up of the party too at higher difficulty levels.

I will say this though: A well played and equipped Slayer is godly on Legend difficulty. Probably the best class in game for elite/boss killing and with a 2h hammer can knock down swarms with the best of them. Lack of ranged means they depend on a good Sienna/Kirellian though but if you have either of those in your party, don't even knock a good Slayer. Really, anyone playing any of the Dorf classes shouldn't be sniping specials anyway at Legend.

Handmaiden can be good if played correctly, much like Slayer. Sort of a niche, but if you have a player that knows what they're doing its great. Handmaiden off-tanking for a Slayer in fact, boosting Stamina Regen % turns the Slayer into an awesome pace-setting tank that just sits out in front and push stabs through all hordes and flat-footed special mobs.

Both Slayer and Handmaiden are the go-to's for doing Solo Legend speedruns. Think about that for a minute to get an idea of how to play them, even in a group. Obviously on Legend you want to stick together but as I said if you have a good group and someone that knows how to play either of those classes well you can move through any map at any difficulty at insanely fast speeds.

I agree on Shade though. I could see that class getting a buff some time soon. I certainly hope it does. Battle Wizard is retarded too. Unchained is gimmicky and starts losing its charm around Champion level which puts anyone not using Pyromancer on Sienna at Legend difficulty as someone you instantly leave group for if found in a PUG. Sad but true. It shouldn't be like that. Fatshark should realize that if there is a class that almost zero people out there play beyond Champion then there is something wrong with the class that needs to be addressed. Time will tell.

2Handers also feel great from my brief survey of using them, but they definitely seem underpowered compared to the shield builds.

2H Hammer is the way to go IMO on IB. You aren't going to rack up green circles but what you will do is stagger more enemies which is basically your job as IB on Legend difficulty. I used axes before 1.05, but after that Hero Power/Stagger readjustment they basically became worthless on Legend. I think as a teammate you're going to have a much easier time as a whole going 2H Hammer. From what I understand the 1H hammer has a similar stagger rate, and is faster, but will not cleave through as many mobs.

YMMV.
 
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Joined
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Messages
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Chicago, IL, Kwa
Uhhh.... I guess? But the reason Slayer is top-tier for solo leg speedruns is because of his movement passive proc when he's solo though. It's not really at all indicative of how he performs in a group at all. While, yes there are occasional players that will surprise you, I would put Slayer in the same boat as Unchained; gimmicky and most likely to be dead weight on your team. I agree Handmaiden is quite good (although I also never said otherwise). I also don't think Kruber is as terribad as most people like to make out (Foot Soldier is really the only one I've played with much though; he makes bosses waaaaaaay easier on Champ and Leg, but outside of that doesn't have a ton of utility).

So, sure "completely unviable" is an exaggeration, but there are clearly career and loadout combos that are significantly easier and more effective for most players to play. Citing the performance of the best players in the world doesn't really refute that in an way to my mind.


Edit: You're right about 2Hs though. Since the patch I've been playing with them, and either I've just gotten much better with them or the penetration and stagger buffs make them play much, much better.
 
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crakkie

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Messages
1,608
Location
Louisiana
I've taken to using ranger with my purty grudge raker. 9 'bullets' per barrel = up to 18+ kills per reload (not sure how well they penetrate), one shot specials at closeish range, punch is effective & fast against weak enemies, and unless there's a mooching elf stealing my damn ammo I pretty much never run out or switch to melee. It's not terribly effective and probably pisses off the team, but it's fun and I'm getting bored with the grind.

Trying to mostly do vet deeds, rewards be damned, since they at least offer some variety/insanity without friendly fire annoyance. There's always a dedicated grinder who quits whenever someone fires up a deed; poor bastards only play to open chests.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
Uhhh.... I guess? But the reason Slayer is top-tier for solo leg speedruns is because of his movement passive proc when he's solo though. It's not really at all indicative of how he performs in a group at all. While, yes there are occasional players that will surprise you, I would put Slayer in the same boat as Unchained; gimmicky and most likely to be dead weight on your team.

I can tell you, from personal experience, you're wrong on the Slayer. It only seems gimmicky because most people are just bad at the game and don't know how to build characters. The key to Slayer is a lot more meta than say, Ironbreaker, obviously. The gear you use is not gonna be generic, but tailored for a specific play style - stam regen and attack speed heavy for instance. Knowing how to effectively push/stab through a whole map as well. I guess if by "gimmicky" you mean not-so-obvious play style, then I agree. But I don't lump Slayer in with classes like Shade, Battle Wizard, or Unchained. I can usually tell in the first 5 minutes if a Slayer knows what he's doing. Most scrubs will have fallen by then.

I've taken to using ranger with my purty grudge raker. 9 'bullets' per barrel = up to 18+ kills per reload (not sure how well they penetrate), one shot specials at closeish range, punch is effective & fast against weak enemies, and unless there's a mooching elf stealing my damn ammo I pretty much never run out or switch to melee. It's not terribly effective and probably pisses off the team, but it's fun and I'm getting bored with the grind.

Trying to mostly do vet deeds, rewards be damned, since they at least offer some variety/insanity without friendly fire annoyance. There's always a dedicated grinder who quits whenever someone fires up a deed; poor bastards only play to open chests.

I'm always tempted to take Ranger Vet since I got a red dorf hand cannon. I'll have to look at the talents some time and see if there's anything worthwhile.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
I also don't think Kruber is as terribad as most people like to make out (Foot Soldier is really the only one I've played with much though; he makes bosses waaaaaaay easier on Champ and Leg, but outside of that doesn't have a ton of utility).

I love Merc Kruber, personally. His ult is a great OhShit Button for when a team gets hit by an ambush or caught by a swarm in the open. The AOE knockdown/stagger and temp health buys you time to get to that hallway or corner to face it which is almost always the difference between easy mode and wiping on a run. Plus his talent to share his passive ability that boosts attack speed is nice if you don't have an IB or if your IB sucks. Foot soldier is ok and his passive is ok, but again... That Merc ult is great.

Edit: Another plus to the Merc ult is that it is the only means of stopping the Chaos Spawn from eating a teammate besides explosives.
 
Joined
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Knowing how to effectively push/stab through a whole map as well. I guess if by "gimmicky" you mean not-so-obvious play style, then I agree. But I don't lump Slayer in with classes like Shade, Battle Wizard, or Unchained. I can usually tell in the first 5 minutes if a Slayer knows what he's doing. Most scrubs will have fallen by then.

Fair enough. I agree with this, and "gimmicky" was a poor choice of word on my part (although I'd still put Unchained on a tier above BW and Shade; I've survived leg runs with an Unchained, can't say that of a Shade or BW, honestly). Most of my Slayer experiences have been of no-mic pubbers who run around like a chicken with its head cut off. I concede there is more to the class than that.

Also, has anyone been experiencing bizarre RNG with Quickplay? This was the actual sequence of maps I pulled last night: Into the Nest, Against the Grain, Skittergate, Skittergate, Halescourge, War Camp, Halescourge, War Camp, Screaming Bell, Skittergate, Into the Nest, War Camp, Skittergate.

I mean I'm not one to rage-suicide at a boss map, but that's fucking pushing it.
 

Nael

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
11,384
Location
Indy
Also, has anyone been experiencing bizarre RNG with Quickplay? This was the actual sequence of maps I pulled last night: Into the Nest, Against the Grain, Skittergate, Skittergate, Halescourge, War Camp, Halescourge, War Camp, Screaming Bell, Skittergate, Into the Nest, War Camp, Skittergate.

I mean I'm not one to rage-suicide at a boss map, but that's fucking pushing it.

I was in a group this evening that got "Skippergate" and we all jumped off ledges to go back to the Keep to get another mission. Next up: Skippergate AGAIN. It's really annoying. A lot of the time I'll just go to the Lobby Browser and find a group already in a mission that I like with a spot open and go that route. Sometimes the QP bonus just isn't worth it.
 

A horse of course

Guest
I'm sure everyone knows about the DLC being leaked in White Dwarf, but for anyone wondering why:

Fatshark_HedgeCommunity Manager
1d
We’ll have some official news on this very soon :) These magazines are compiled long in advance of being published, so back when we planned our roadmap and release schedule, White Dwarf had already been informed of our plans. When our plans changed, the magizine was already ready for publication and, well, here we are today.

The filthy swedes were so incompetent that they couldn't even release content on time to fulfill their contractual obligations with their partners, so White Dwarf just said "fuck you" and printed it anyway.
 

Beowulf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
1,965
Fatshark seems to be either badly managed, or incompetent.
Or both.

Every patch that fixes something also breaks few things.
Their "spokespersons" give conflicting statements (e.g. Console release will not impede PC content creation != We had to pull people from the PC department to work on the console port).
They slipped while AMA, that they are going to sell cosmetics (cosmetics are bad clones for some classes and drop rates were abysmal, while unused cosmetics are in the files).
Some things still work only for the host, and not for the client, and only browsing forums you can know which work.
When it was revealed that they use RedShell, one of the devs accused people of being "conspiracy theorists" (verbatim).
They pulled down the roadmap quite a while ago, as they can't deliver anything on time, and I strongly doubt, that they even intend to (dedicated servers).

They nailed the Old World look, but that's it.

I had fun while playing, but I think I got all I could from the game, and quit while replaying the same map for the n-th time and a horde spawned around me just as I jumped from the ledge, so I couldn't even move.
That was just after the patch that supposedly fixed the issue of spawning enemies on player entities.

Perhaps further down the line I'll do the same as with V1, that is buy it in a cheap bundle, but I'm not buying any of their products before that.
 
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Wild Slop

Arcane
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Messages
2,307
Location
Crow's Nest


What does this 28 second "teaser" tell us? Something about fireworks I guess and that it's coming out on the 28th.


*Here is a a snip about same thing from : https://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/vermintide-2-announces-shadows-bogenhafen-dlc/

If you’re a regular player of the multiplayer rat-poking simulator Vermintide 2, you’ve probably near max in terms of advancement and ready for whatever’s next. We now know just what that next is with the reveal of the Shadows over Bogenhafen DLC, which has a release date and…that’s about it, honestly.

vermintide-2-ratty-says-yeaaa-560x315.png


There aren’t an awful lot of details about this new DLC yet in terms of content, but the announcement quotes Fatshark CEO Martin Wahlund as saying that players “will be tested like never before by Grandfather Nurgle’s unpleasant attentions.”

The announcement also promises that this coming fall season will see more content arriving to Vermintide 2 overall, though once again is mum on the details of what that content will look like and when it will specifically release.

What we can say for sure is that Shadows over Bogenhafen will release on Tuesday, August 28th for PC and Xbox One. The vagueness otherwise continues with the teaser trailer below.

Here they post same trailor as above

Our Thoughts
We really wish we had more to report here, but then again having a release date for the next DLC isn’t exactly bad to hear about regardless. Here’s hoping that we’ll get some more firm details on what the fall updates and new DLC will bring to this slice (get it?) of multiplayer co-op gaming.
 
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Beowulf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
1,965
My favorite part of "The Enemy Within" Campaign.
Mostly because it was so different to the usual scenarios we used to play.

Eh, a pity there is no proper WFRP c- rpg.

Nice, that they are releasing the DLC finally, but I'll skip it.
I doubt it will be properly tested before the release anyway.
 

A horse of course

Guest
My favorite part of "The Enemy Within" Campaign.
Mostly because it was so different to the usual scenarios we used to play.

Eh, a pity there is no proper WFRP c- rpg.

Nice, that they are releasing the DLC finally, but I'll skip it.
I doubt it will be properly tested before the release anyway.

Yeah I'm just gonna uninstall. I was suckered into buying on release by their bullshit about DLC timetables and modding. Won't make the mistake again.
 

Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
My favorite part of "The Enemy Within" Campaign.
Mostly because it was so different to the usual scenarios we used to play.

Eh, a pity there is no proper WFRP c- rpg.

Nice, that they are releasing the DLC finally, but I'll skip it.
I doubt it will be properly tested before the release anyway.

Yeah I'm just gonna uninstall. I was suckered into buying on release by their bullshit about DLC timetables and modding. Won't make the mistake again.
Yeah they haven't improved much so far and it's just a skinner box without the good parts mostly.
 

Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
So they just updated the beta branch to 1.2 and added 2 dlc maps.
More importantly though, lots of interesting changes the community had been asking for since pre-release pretty much haha.
They even increased 2h sword range apparently. Now it no longer has the shortest range of any weapon (iirc) lol. Must have been an interesting discussion at the office considering how they always dug in their heels with their retarded reasoning for having it so short in the first place (not balance, but they thought those swords were so heavy you have to keep them close to the body and can't lunge etc or anything with it, can't hold it with an outstretched arm etc. No idea what possessed them to account for "realism" in that one instance, especially since it's total bs... But hey, they "tested" it for their older medieval melee game.
A 120 lb woman can fence with a greatsword just fine, but swede nu-males lack the testosterone to do so I guess)

Also nice stuff like troll regen is off for 3 seconds after a hit on it. Maybe makes them less spongy for solo players at high difficulties. Some weapons either couldn't kill them at all at max difficulty, or it's so slow as to not be worth it.

Head hits now do more armor damage apparently. They had changed that from VT1 where you could hit the head for armor damage with any melee weapon iirc, to weapons with no armor pierce doing nothing on head hits in vt 2.
Human greatswords now also have a new anti-armor push stab (a cleave from above apparently) and heavy attacks cleave armored foes. Have to test that one.


List of changes here in the comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/994rga/vermintide_2_shadows_over_bögenhafen_patch_12/


Not convinced that this makes the game less of a skinner-box-minus-the-fun-parts, but at least a lot of the mechanical stuff seems improved now. Might make people actually select weapons for reasons other than "it can handle armor in high difficulty".

Edit: undocumented changes: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/99ad5u/undocumented_12_beta_changes/

The brighter hit flashes don't sound great at all.
 
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A horse of course

Guest
Too little too late for me. Sweden should be bombed back to the stone age, the adult men executed and the women and children rendered slaves of Denmark.
 

Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
Too little too late for me. Sweden should be bombed back to the stone age, the adult men executed and the women and children rendered slaves of Denmark.
You'd have to beat the enrichers to the punch, then.

Anyway, played it some and yeah, greatsword is now more in line with the rest of the weapons. Still not my first choice, but it's something.
But yeah, even with all the changes they made, it's not enough to bring me back either.
 

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