Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Immortal]

PoE 1 ended up being.. pretty.. basic. You mentioned all these amazing builds you did with a party of hoplite spear swingers.. but that still feels shallow to me. We know what the optimized stats and weapons are.. Sure you could make a party of dagger throwing grannies.. but that's not what I mean when I talk about depth.

It ended up being basic because a lot of the builds play like each other, not because of the build variety. I commend PoE's system for making many builds viable, but it made them so by all of them being samey. Cutting down on spammy abilities in PoE2 by introducing power pools was the right decision, even if it's very mana-like.

I don't disagree but I guess my point wasn't just about viability.. just that I don't see a ton of depth there. As you said, it all feels so homogeneous. The stats you need are the same, the weapons you should be using are the same the "abilities" or whatever you will need are the same.

People always praise that you can wear any armor or wield any weapon. The point I am trying to make.. is the same goes for 3.5E.
I can turn any caster class into a plate wearing power house with the right multi-classing.
It all depends if they are a Bard / Arcane / Divine caster and what prcs / feats I need to make it work.


EDIT:
I think I am just talking in circles here - You get my point.

 

[Prime Junta]

Agreed - but if this is your argument, you need to recognize that it's not "empirically" a bad or good system based on that.

I think it is possible to discuss whether a system is good or bad, but that first requires a discussion of what criteria of goodness or badness we're going to use. The trouble with PnP is that these criteria are going to vary person to person and group to group. Without this preliminary consensus it's likely we'll just be talking past one another.

For example, generally speaking, I value parsimony, consistency, easy applicability, and flexibility: in my book, a ruleset that meaningfully defines a broader range of situations with fewer and easier to apply rules is better than a system which uses a larger set of harder-to-apply rules covering a narrower range of situations. By these standards, AD&D is terrible, D&D3 without PrCs is mediocre but with PrCs it's bad, Call of Cthulhu is very good, and Numenera is almost as bad as AD&D but in a completely different way.

I am aware that other people value different things in rulesets, and I have zero problems with that. If somebody gets a massive kick out colouring carefully inside the lines to meet the requirements for Royal Explorer, or from perusing horse trait tables, I say more power to them, I just don't share those preferences.

Lots of pnp games / sessions are centered around very creative and interesting builds.. and that's largely how the NWN2 PW scene works too. This is half the fun for a lot of people - min maxing between the lines of several different class features & requirements at play at one time.

Yeah sure those builds are creative -- but the creativity isn't the player's, it's the person's who wrote up the prestige classes. It doesn't take much creativity to notice that stacking Red Wizard and Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep will give you an absurdly powerful wizard; from there on out it's just a matter of ticking the boxes. Sure, there are a few power builds out there that are a bit more exotic -- some Red Dragon Disciple based ones f.ex. -- but even there, the number and variety of building blocks to play with is pretty limited.

The thing I like about P1 character building that it lets you make a broad variety of builds that the people who made the game never even imagined. I don't think Josh had a Dangerous Implement based wizard with MIG 20 CON 8 DEX 20 PER 20 INT 8 RES 8 in mind as a super-effective ranged weapon damage build, but you can do that. Or a barb dual-wielding Spelltongues to keep her Savage Defiance and other buffs up forever until everybody else is dead. Or a Scion of Flame barb with Forgemaster's Gloves. And so on and so forth.

(Those hoplite spear swingers were pretty trivial as builds go, but it was a pretty cool party. The idea with that was that it made use of quick weapon switch, standardised weapon sets, and the paladin's ability to pop a suitable aura for any situation, which allowed highly flexible tactics -- alpha-strike, run-and-gun, phalanx, hold a chokepoint, shieldwall, whatever. None of the characters in that party was particularly exciting as a build, but as a whole the party was fun to play, and the experience was quite different from your usual one: while the party didn't excel at anything, it made up for it with tactical flexibility. But that's a tangent.)

Edit: I've had this discussion before, a number of times, with a number of different people, sometimes more and sometimes less productively. This one is shaping to be one of the more productive times, but I'm afraid I don't have the energy and interest to have it again, so I'm going to bow out at this point. Hope you don't mind.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It certainly doesn't read like that, it reads more like ass-licking, shilling and trying to pass off the attributes as affecting the entire game, but maybe that's what I read in all your posts. Because it's you.

Cool story pal, but what actually happened, is you saw a phrase "complex game" , blood rushed through your veins and this was the thought process that went through your head:

Complex game?

COMPLEX GAME?

I MUST PROTEST!!!!1111

Then you proceed to post a rant about tacticul aspects or whateverthefuck, without realizing you're about to make absolute moron out of yourself because I was specifically referring to complexity of dealing with attributes in IE games vs. PoE, just like everybody did on last 5 pages. If you can't the process context of written language, you should probably stop participating in text based forums.

 

[Lacrymas]

Prime Junta, you can argue the same things for base classes as well, "oh, you didn't come up with this class, the designers did, they are restricting my creativity". It seems to me like you just prefer classless systems where anything goes. You also seem to protest cookie cutter builds like Arcane Scholar/Red Wizard as if you can't make a Sorcerer/Arcane Scholar/Rogue/Ranger or whatever. Yes, a lot of people will notice the complementary nature of Arcane Scholar/Red Wizard, just like they'll notice the cheesiness of Sorc 39/Pal 1, but again, it doesn't stop you from making up more exotic builds. You act like playing with cookie cutter builds and PrCs is forced upon you, while that can't be further from the truth, they are simply instruments (with strings attached for balance reasons) to be used however you see fit.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nobody is saying PoE's attribute system is a holy grail - we already have a holy grail, and it's called SPECIAL.

But PoE does a good job in providing a compelling system that is actually interesting to use even for advanced players. You can't help but laugh at all the early hysterics that "no dump stats" is consolization and dumbing down our sacred genre for the mass audience. It looks hilarious now because the opposite has happened and it resulted in more complex game.

I missed this post.. Resolve is the new CHA.. So dunno where all this "complexity" comes from.

Honestly, almost every class you make in PoE1 is a Dump Resolve and Pump Perception, especially on POTD. The rest depends on what your going for, but is usually pretty obvious to figure out.

Things were more complex when Sawyer was changing shit every patch. lol.

Attributes being more complex than in IE games is not exactly a high bar.

 

[Sensuki]

I actually like attributes being useful for different builds. I think it's a pretty fair criticism of 2E and 3E that your stats are largely determined by your class and anything else is just shit.

Like I was saying previously I will gladly take concessions to the character system (which isn't really gameplay) over concessions to the actual gameplay. It seems a lot of people don't care as much about what they are actually doing when playing the game, and more about their spreadsheet stat builds and muh ropplaying my imaginary person

 

[Grotesque]

The pandering of logic and verisimilitude to the throat-fucked by the consumer's fastidiousness is brought up to a whole new level by Josh "the Clown" Sawyer.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Infinitron]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95782-worldofeternity-funny-business-speculation/?p=1987826

3D7mzF

 

[Cross]

All pets, eh? So what of the Pets vs Superpets distinction from the Fig campaign?

Just like how every aspect of PoE is a downgrade from the IE games, he still isn't able to match the pet mechanics of a certain Infinity Engine game:

http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Lim-Lim

it will follow the Nameless One almost like a non-controlled party member, even going so far as to attack hostile enemies. Spells and buffs can be cast on the Lim-Lim, providing it with a stronger attack and defense.

Alternatively, the Lim-Lim can be turned to stone with the help of Marissa.

It is worth noting that taking the Lim-Lim along to the Fortress of Regrets will result in its death.

 

[Infinitron]

Troll post? The pets were conceived as a cosmetic goodie. The ability to have "pets" who can attack enemies isn't in doubt - that's what Ranger animal companions are.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Who are these people that cannot perform basic search functions... how many times must the man answer this question?

 

[Lacrymas]

They've been recycling information about this game since the beginning, so he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Immortal]

The thing I like about P1 character building that it lets you make a broad variety of builds that the people who made the game never even imagined. I don't think Josh had a Dangerous Implement based wizard with MIG 20 CON 8 DEX 20 PER 20 INT 8 RES 8 in mind as a super-effective ranged weapon damage build, but you can do that. Or a barb dual-wielding Spelltongues to keep her Savage Defiance and other buffs up forever until everybody else is dead. Or a Scion of Flame barb with Forgemaster's Gloves. And so on and so forth.

[hyperbole]But like.. what was creative about it. This smacks of the whole "Over 1 million ways to beat the game" style of pandering. Did you kill this enemy first or that? [/hyperbole]

I know it's cliche at this point and I've said it before but like.. What did your build actually do that was unique? You picked ideal stats for the weapon choice and slapped it together 6 times. There is no real depth going on here. Yes I'm sure Josh didn't sit in his office thinking. "You know that Bismark guy on the dex might do a party of hoplights here".. but like.. so..?

The Item + Build combinations are very light. Your forgemaster example is like one of 4 I can think of. Maybe something with the two sabres.. and the boots of speed? I dunno, the rapier from endless dungeon?
Like the combinations aren't as endless as your sort of are implying here.

Barbarian + Forgemaster is sort of the main meme here.. It's by far the best example of synergy in the game, nothing else really comes close which makes me roll my eyes when your like "wow so many options.. like forgemaster and... yea!" .

EDIT:
To be fair - I think the lack of item + build synergy was recognized by Obsidian and was largely because of their stupid enchanting system. I hope to see more unique stuff like forgies in PoE 2.

It doesn't take much creativity to notice that stacking Red Wizard and Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep will give you an absurdly powerful wizard.

Maybe you need a little more creativity.. that's not even what I would call an interesting or even "good" build. TBH.

(To be fair, the custom prc mods is where it's at.. You throw another 20 classes into the mix with like 50 new feats and spells.. it really becomes a lot more fun, especially when the classes try to stay as close to pnp as possible)

Nobody is saying PoE's attribute system is a holy grail - we already have a holy grail, and it's called SPECIAL.

But PoE does a good job in providing a compelling system that is actually interesting to use even for advanced players. You can't help but laugh at all the early hysterics that "no dump stats" is consolization and dumbing down our sacred genre for the mass audience. It looks hilarious now because the opposite has happened and it resulted in more complex game.

I missed this post.. Resolve is the new CHA.. So dunno where all this "complexity" comes from.

Honestly, almost every class you make in PoE1 is a Dump Resolve and Pump Perception, especially on POTD. The rest depends on what your going for, but is usually pretty obvious to figure out.

Things were more complex when Sawyer was changing shit every patch. lol.

Attributes being more complex than in IE games is not exactly a high bar.

Yea.. that was my point.. moron.

 

[King Crispy]

so I'm going to bow out at this point. Hope you don't mind.

Oh, trust me. We don't mind.

 

[Haplo]

The thing I like about P1 character building that it lets you make a broad variety of builds that the people who made the game never even imagined. I don't think Josh had a Dangerous Implement based wizard with MIG 20 CON 8 DEX 20 PER 20 INT 8 RES 8 in mind as a super-effective ranged weapon damage build, but you can do that. Or a barb dual-wielding Spelltongues to keep her Savage Defiance and other buffs up forever until everybody else is dead. Or a Scion of Flame barb with Forgemaster's Gloves. And so on and so forth.

The Item + Build combinations are very light. Your forgemaster example is like one of 4 I can think of. Maybe something with the two sabres.. and the boots of speed? I dunno, the rapier from endless dungeon?
Like the combinations aren't as endless as your sort of are implying here.

Barbarian + Forgemaster is sort of the main meme here.. It's by far the best example of synergy in the game, nothing else really comes close which makes me roll my eyes when your like "wow so many options.. like forgemaster and... yea!" .

EDIT:
To be fair - I think the lack of item + build synergy was recognized by Obsidian and was largely because of their stupid enchanting system. I hope to see more unique stuff like forgies in PoE 2.

There are more interesting synergies then Flamebrand Barbarian. Although that one must have been REALLY cool before Obsidian nerfed the spell - Flamebrand used to target Reflex instead of Deflection... now that was fun!
You haven't mentioned the perma-buff Spelltongue Rapier Barb from Junta's very example above. Or defensive Barb with the shield that casts Thrust of Tattered Veils on bash crit (don't forget carnage, Barbs proc far more hit/crit effects then any other class). Or crowd controller Barb with Hours of St. Rumbaldt or Tall Grass - or a combo of stunning/pronning dual weapons (the latter admittedly achievable pretty late).
There are at least several other good Barbarian builds.

And that is only 1 single class. The depth and build variety is definitely there.

 

[Jenkem]

So how will this play when it comes out like POE3.0?

 

[axedice]

Prime Junta is wrong, PrCs are fun. That's the reason he resigned from this discussion.

 

[FreeKaner]

Still no beta update to this stillbirth.

 

[fantadomat]

Don't remember a single impressive encounter in PoE,that was fun to fight and figure it out.

Funny, I can think of several.

TBF almost all of them were in the expansions, and none of them were quite as good as BG2 at its best. Even so, Concelhaut and Llengrath are in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned. And the one in the unexpectedly big and cool sidequest in the mines in WM2. Plus a few others.

Do you remember the levels or the fights? The first one was just bash the siege outside and kill a few of the students,then gang bash the "Archmage" that had some useless spell book. They could have at least give him full spellbook and some cool spells,i learned only one spell,pointless battle. The second one i almost missed because you have to retrack to open the level on the world map. Once i got to the dragon....well it made sense and we became allies.

No matter what we say,IE games do have better combat and are more challenging. Don't remember a single impressive encounter in PoE,that was fun to fight and figure it out.

Adra Dragon was fun to figure out to focus on those priests first and then on the Dragon. It was a pushover after that.

Undead Raedic was also kind of memorable but more because even with protection vs domination, their grazes would still fuck you over and create chaos in that battle. It was more memorable because characters kept becoming hostile and then stop being hostile and you could do little about it but watch and laugh how stupid it all was.

The Readic was the best fight in the game,while the adra dragon was annoying as hell because of its one hit breath. In my last playtrough is just decided to not fight them because they did make sense and allied myself with them.


IHaveHugeNick attributes in PoE are more complex than BG,also they are a lot more meaningless.

 

[Maculo]

Every time I see an alert for this thread, I get my hopes up that there is some news on the upcoming patch.

 

[Haplo]

Don't remember a single impressive encounter in PoE,that was fun to fight and figure it out.

Funny, I can think of several.

TBF almost all of them were in the expansions, and none of them were quite as good as BG2 at its best. Even so, Concelhaut and Llengrath are in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned. And the one in the unexpectedly big and cool sidequest in the mines in WM2. Plus a few others.

Do you remember the levels or the fights? The first one was just bash the siege outside and kill a few of the students,then gang bash the "Archmage" that had some useless spell book. They could have at least give him full spellbook and some cool spells,i learned only one spell,pointless battle.

Funny, because I've found the fight with Concelhaut very challenging and one of the game's highlights. He also uses at least one nasty unique spell, which kept my main char flattened and out of combat trough most of the fight. Used several revives from what I remember. Then you also get his skull as trophy :D
Later on I've also had some satisfaction Doom-ing some nasty opponents with his spell.
One of my favorite game moments really - and was more interesting then the dragon fights IMO.

 

[fantadomat]

Don't remember a single impressive encounter in PoE,that was fun to fight and figure it out.

Funny, I can think of several.

TBF almost all of them were in the expansions, and none of them were quite as good as BG2 at its best. Even so, Concelhaut and Llengrath are in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned. And the one in the unexpectedly big and cool sidequest in the mines in WM2. Plus a few others.

Do you remember the levels or the fights? The first one was just bash the siege outside and kill a few of the students,then gang bash the "Archmage" that had some useless spell book. They could have at least give him full spellbook and some cool spells,i learned only one spell,pointless battle.

Funny, because I've found the fight with Concelhaut very challenging and one of the game's highlights. He also uses at least one nasty unique spell, which kept my main char flattened and out of combat trough most of the fight. Used several revives from what I remember. Then you also get his skull as trophy :D
Later on I've also had some satisfaction Doom-ing some nasty opponents with his spell.
One of my favorite game moments really - and was more interesting then the dragon fights IMO.

I don't remember how the fight did go on,all i remember was me rushing him and smashing his skull ,it was a challenging battle and it was better than the dragon fights. But by this time i didn't cared much,i was top level and was just trying to kill all the shit that annoyed me.

 

[Lacrymas]

Withdraw is a hardcounter to his Doom, it's good that he disables one of your party members in general, though, you can only save them from dying with Withdraw. The memorable fights in PoE were Concelhaut, Raedric, the Kraken (only because of the novelty of fighting a fucking kraken) and maaaaybe Llengrath. Raedric is memorable because it's a no bullshit fight on low levels when you yourself can't churn out the bullshit; Concelhaut was memorable because it forced you to vary your tactics a bit due to his Doom; and Llengrath was maybe memorable because it was 2 dragons, but I two-shot that fight anyway, soooo. Bounties were very "anonymous", in that they were challenging, but didn't have individual personality.

The problem is that you can rinse and repeat the same tactic over and over, and over, and over, and over again for 99% of the fights and they'll work perfectly, while spamming the countless per-encounter abilities cycling through the party members. That makes even well-designed fights (like the Radiant Spore) a breeze and not memorable because of this routine you go through in every encounter. But we've been over this.

 

[Tygrende]

The problem is that you can rinse and repeat the same tactic over and over, and over, and over, and over again for 99% of the fights and they'll work perfectly, while spamming the countless per-encounter abilities cycling through the party members. That makes even well-designed fights (like the Radiant Spore) a breeze and not memorable because of this routine you go through in every encounter. But we've been over this.

Radiant Spore was actually one of the few fights where I used an unconventional tactic. While everyone was dealing with vithracks and tanking those rock-throwing tentacles, my gun rogue circled around them alone and killed the spore in 5 shots.

I really like the way guns and crossbows work in PoE by the way. I don't know of many RPGs that actually give them somewhat realistic reload times and make switching them a viable tactic, Age of Decadence is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Most just treat them like reskinned bows with slightly different stats. I just hope there will be more unique/soulbound guns in Deadfire because there was way too few of them in the first game.