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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Kitchen Utensil

Guest
designing enemies for FPS is the same thing as designing them for RPGs, got it :lol:

And what's the difference exactly?

You have to design them, model them, animate them, give them some abilities and place them somewhat logically into the world. What am I missing?
 

Lacrymas

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Why is some easy quip like that always used when people don't have anything interesting to say? Creating the models, skeletons, animations, abilities and what not isn't easier for FPSes.
 

fantadomat

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FPS enemies are harder to make,in RPGs enemy diversity comes mainly from the abilities that they use. Also the animation is not that important and on a lot smaller scale.
 

frajaq

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They admitted that because of time constraints they went with the first rough draft of the story right? I might be remembering wrong
 

santino27

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
They admitted that because of time constraints they went with the first rough draft of the story right? I might be remembering wrong

Something to that extent, yes. It was in Fenstermaker's interview with the Codex: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10231

Eric Fenstermaker said:
You may have identified the recurring theme of resource scarcity. None of this is to say we couldn't have figured out things better on our own, or didn't make mistakes. I personally made plenty. But in most cases, the biggest thing separating the game from the heights of its potential is a simple lack of time and money. "Writing is rewriting" is a great quote about writing that I read that was written by somebody who never worked on a mid-budget video game. Most of the dialogue in Pillars is first-draft with a cursory editing pass. There was very little time for iterative improvement, especially later in development. You can be an Uncompromising Creative Genius about this predicament and make yourself very miserable and probably never have a game come out because you're just not happy with it yet (and these people are numerous and well documented), or you can learn to accept it, and be grateful that you aren't working on an Uncompromising 5-10 year per game development cycle.
 

Prime Junta

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The writing is a mess, by videogame, by RPG, and by Obsidian standards.

Compared to such shining beacons of literary munificence as, to pick an example at random, the Codex GOTY 2017?

(the edge, people, the edge)

(also fantadomat is fonny, wanting biawacs explained to him when you actually get to witness one -- one of the relatively infrequent cases when Pillars was actually using the videogame medium properly to communicate lore)
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
They admitted that because of time constraints they went with the first rough draft of the story right? I might be remembering wrong
They did, and in a Codex interview to boot, but some people just can't stop wanting to eat shit, it seems, even when they are told it's not really the Nutella they were telling themselves it is.
 

AwesomeButton

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The writing is a mess, by videogame, by RPG, and by Obsidian standards.

Compared to such shining beacons of literary munificence as, to pick an example at random, the Codex GOTY 2017?

(the edge, people, the edge)

(also fantadomat is fonny, wanting biawacs explained to him when you actually get to witness one -- one of the relatively infrequent cases when Pillars was actually using the videogame medium properly to communicate lore)
Straw Hunta to the rescue. No one's saying the GOTY 2017 had good writing, least of all me.

Also, congratulations on the polemical quality of the argument: PoE doesn't have bad writing, because this other game has worse writing. :lol:
 
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Quillon

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They admitted that because of time constraints they went with the first rough draft of the story right? I might be remembering wrong

I don't understand why they did that. I mean didn't they have bigger concerns than rushing to work on a story right away for a game to be released 2.5 years later? Like engine, tools, how to build levels, prototyping etc. Whatever's the story was gonna be, they knew what kinda game it will be anyway.
 

Prime Junta

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Also, congratulations on your the polemical quality of the argument: PoE doesn't have bad writing, because this other game has worse writing. :lol:

The question was about standards and how P1 compares to them. The general standard of writing in games, also RPGs, is pretty poor. There are some that rise above it -- The Witchers spring to mind -- but compared to the Mass Effects, Dragon Ages, Original Sins and what have you Pillars is middle-of-the-road.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's. Not close to PS:T's of course but then hardly anything is.)
 

AwesomeButton

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Also, congratulations on your the polemical quality of the argument: PoE doesn't have bad writing, because this other game has worse writing. :lol:

The question was about standards and how P1 compares to them. The general standard of writing in games, also RPGs, is pretty poor. There are some that rise above it -- The Witchers spring to mind -- but compared to the Mass Effects, Dragon Ages, Original Sins and what have you Pillars is middle-of-the-road.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's. Not close to PS:T's of course but then hardly anything is.)
I've said numerous times in this thread and possibly in others, that I don't expect great achievements from games' writing, for multiple reasons. But I can't call PoE's writing average even by the low bar of games in general, or RPGs in general. I recently made a related thread. You can see how people rate PoE's writing there.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's.
This opinion doesn't seem to be shared by many people, I'm afraid.
 

Grunker

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Also, congratulations on your the polemical quality of the argument: PoE doesn't have bad writing, because this other game has worse writing. :lol:

The question was about standards and how P1 compares to them. The general standard of writing in games, also RPGs, is pretty poor. There are some that rise above it -- The Witchers spring to mind -- but compared to the Mass Effects, Dragon Ages, Original Sins and what have you Pillars is middle-of-the-road.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's. Not close to PS:T's of course but then hardly anything is.)

I gave you an agree for the overall sentiment, but I think both BGs and certainly IWD are better written games than PoE. PoE has more ambition, of course, but the former are what we in Danish would call more "formfuldendt", which translates roughly into "closer to fulfilling its objectives." (Perhaps BG2 is not - cringy biowarian romances and drama bring it way down compared to the other two in this department.)

The point is that especially in IWD, you have very flavourful, unintrusive and functional writing that just works, while PoE attempts something much more bold but also fails to a much wider extend.

I prefer something complete with lower ambitions than something ambitious but broken. Though I'm certainly in the minority on the Codex on that one.
 
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aweigh

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wouldnt PoEs writing be particularly bad specifically because of how ineffective it is in accomplishing simple things like you know communicating to the player
 

AwesomeButton

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Going on a little tangent - it's really funny and somewhat instructive to watch how tastes for what's good writing evolve over time. It's like a miniature scale replication of the debate of what writing constitutes literature, but watching the debate in the sphere of videogames is as if you test poison on mice* - the organism is much smaller and less complex and the experiment shows results faster.

*DarthRoxor, no offence.

wouldnt PoEs writing be particularly bad specifically because of how ineffective it is in accomplishing simple things like you know communicating to the player
That's what I would think.
 

Grunker

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67FuWzixduc&list=PLB31EEF976E4A2C67

Listen to this playlist and tell me again that Icewind Dale has bad writing. It's simple and effective at bringing about the quintessential sense of adventure and trepidation.

(Besides the long intro, most of the chapter sections are between 30 and 60 seconds long, yet oozing with atmosphere and telling you what you need to know)
 

AwesomeButton

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Someone tells me PoE's writing is actually "average", and I am less surprised if they can't appreciate IWD's writing.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, congratulations on your the polemical quality of the argument: PoE doesn't have bad writing, because this other game has worse writing. :lol:

The question was about standards and how P1 compares to them. The general standard of writing in games, also RPGs, is pretty poor. There are some that rise above it -- The Witchers spring to mind -- but compared to the Mass Effects, Dragon Ages, Original Sins and what have you Pillars is middle-of-the-road.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's. Not close to PS:T's of course but then hardly anything is.)
I've said numerous times in this thread and possibly in others, that I don't expect great achievements from games' writing, for multiple reasons. But I can't call PoE's writing average even by the low bar of games in general, or RPGs in general. I recently made a related thread. You can see how people rate PoE's writing there.

(Or to pick another comparison -- P1's writing compares very favourably to BG1/2's or IWD's.
This opinion doesn't seem to be shared by many people, I'm afraid.

Nostalgia goggles. I loved the infinity engine games, but aside from Torment the writing really was not the point, and it shows. Icewind Dale has very tight prose, but there is nowhere near enough of it. And quantity has a quality all its own. I know it was only supposed to be a throwaway dungeon crawler, but in my book you lose points for lack of ambition, even if you dramatically exceed the low expectations you set for yourself.

Here’s the thing: like TTON and Wasteland 2, the hate Pillars gets is totally out of proportion to its deficiencies. People were let down by these nostalgia fueled kickstarters because they wanted something that embodied all the best of the old infinity engine games and none of the worst. It gets graded on the toughest curve imaginable: we want a world with the scope of BG2, the combat of Icewind Dale, and the writing of Torment. No game is ever going to give you that. But for fuck’s sake, Pillars actually tried to go there (Tyranny had throwaway combat and better writing—not a coincidence). Of course they fell short. If you can judge it for what it is, though, and not for what you wish it would be, Pillars 3.0 is a solid RPG.

Sure, Pillars could’ve used a much tighter story, but, plot aside, the writing itself was pretty good. I’ll take a rough draft from Obsidian over a final draft from nearly anybody else in the business.

Of course, if you wanted more of a dungeon crawler a la Icewind Dale (or the Baldur’s Gate games if I’m being honest with myself), then I can understand being upset that it was too wordy. But if that’s really what you want, go play a blobber.

Maybe people would be happier if Obsidian had tried to mimic the teenage dungeon master tone of the Baldur’s Gate Series, but I’m glad they tried something different.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
IWD's writing really didn't do anything for me. I don't even remember much of the story. Good fights, but not much recollection what they were all about.

I have even less recollection of what IWD2 was all about. Some invasion of demonic lesbians or something...?
 
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IWD's writing really didn't do anything for me. I don't even remember much of the story. Good fights, but not much recollection what they were all about.

I have even less recollection of what IWD2 was all about. Some invasion of demonic lesbians or something...?
I should get around to playing IWD2.
 

Jarpie

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I agree with AwesomeButton's etc notion that BG1+2 etc writing is more functional, and that's why I think they are better written than PoE. At least they don't have pages and pages of unnecessary fluff (IIRC, been 3-4 years since I played them), so it gets to the point much faster. I wouldn't mind the long-winded writing in PoE1 if it would be well written, I usually want either efficient and functional writing which gets the job done, or then the longer prose, but as long as it's good enough. It's hard to think of good examples of the latter ones, beside PST, maybe Arcanum.
 

Grunker

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I wish more games had as little writing as IWD. In these days of bloated writing complaining that a game has just enough seems completely masochist
 

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