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The tale about Atlus

Vorark

Erudite
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
1,394
Couldn't find a general Atlus or SMT thread, hence this thread.

An enlightened soul did a thorough research about the past and present state of Atlus and its recent decline in quality output. Explains much about the Persona milking, mediocre SMT entries, Kaneko's disappearance, IPs being left in the dust. Quality reading material, imo.

Source: https://www.talking-time.net/showpost.php?s=8f1fa8a6022550f3d375685d1681a965&p=2428711&postcount=1

Atlus has had a lot of upheavals in the past decade due to internal corporate politics and whatnot. Being dissolved into Index Corporation in late 2010 and the reorganization of internal development teams changed them a lot (and was the start of their move into pushing microtransactions and otaku-bait skeeviness into their games). Index Corporation went bankrupt in 2013 while neck-deep in scandals, and was subsequently bought up by Sega, who then took the game development division that was formerly Atlus and recreated it as its own entity again. But let's dive deeper into the shuffle of people that was going on before and during all of this.

*Disclaimer: This is not going to be super comprehensive, and some information may be missing. I'm aiming to focus on certain individuals relevant to recent conversations.

Who we once knew as Atlus
To really understand who Atlus was, we need to look at the actual people responsible for making it what it was.

Cozy Okada - One of the original founders of Atlus in 1986, as well as one of the creators of the Megami Tensei franchise. He directed and produced many of the games for the franchise, up through 2003's original version of Shin Megami Tensei (III): Nocturne. He departed after Nocturne due to supposed burnout and disappointment with the weak reception of its release (he would then go on to form Gaia and take a number of Atlus veterans with him, like Atlus' main composer Tsukasa Masuko). His final credited role with Atlus was as an executive producer on the first Digital Devil Saga.

Tadashi Satomi - The primary writer behind the early Persona games, as well as the Digital Devil Saga duology (in collaboration with writer Yu Godai, who created the concept for said duology). He departed Atlus after Digital Devil Saga 2, joining Okada and his fellow ex-Atlus veterans at Gaia.

Kaneko Kazuma - Alongside being one of the founders of Atlus and the Megami Tensei series art/character design director, he was the primary creative behind the original Nocturne. After Okada's departure, Kaneko took the reigns as the general creative influence for much of the Megami Tensei franchise going forward. Notably, though, is that he had no known active involvement in the creation of Persona 3 and 4. Kaneko's last major work was the original Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey, which was essentially the final breath from the Atlus that we once knew.

One major player that rarely gets acknowledged is Shōgo Isogai, who played a key role in nearly every Megami Tensei game and is notably credited as scenario writer for Nocturne, the Trauma Center games, the first Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha game, and Strange Journey. His writing presence became much smaller after those projects (and notably so after Index Corp came into the picture), becoming a scenario adviser on Devil Survivor and then acting as a planner for puzzle stages in Catherine and confidants in Persona 5.

Another important name that gets little attention is Azusa Kido, one of the few female creative leads in Atlus. Her work is credited as far back as Maken X for the Dreamcast in 1999, and she was both the game director and scenario writer for Persona 3 Portable (writing the entirety of the female protagonist story). Her contributions after Index Corp took over dropped to general planner roles in various features for later games. She had some part in writing the scenario for Persona 5, but it is unknown how much of her contributions actually made it into the game due to known production issues alongside the game also having TEN other writers on it.

And then we had other major staff like Makoto Kitano, who was a chief designer in a number of the Megami Tensei games, but left after the Raidou games and ended up joining Compile Heart, of all places, to direct a number of things. One of those games being, uh, Monster Monpiece. He worked on the Windows version, but this gif still applies.

Basically, a lot of Atlus creatives left or effectively vanished into the company.


The "New" Atlus
A lot of these names are people who've been with Atlus for a while, but only recently came to prominence with the paradigm shift that occurred some time around Persona 4, though there are hints of it seen in Persona 3.

Katsura Hashino - A man who has worn many hats, he has been director and producer on various titles, with his directorial debut being Maken X. While credited as the director of Nocturne, he was mainly in charge of developing gameplay mechanics like the Press Turn battle system. He was the creative lead behind Persona 3 and 4, and their success put him in a position to take more creative control of future productions at Atlus (like Catherine). With that came new names that would appear among the games' credits, like scenario writer Akira Kawasaki, whose contributions were entirely to Persona 4 and its related games. Persona 4, in particular, was such a lucrative and marketable game that it convinced the execs at Index Corporation go all in on it when they took over Atlus. Atlus' original R&D 1 development team was divided up and P Studio was created just for Hashino to continue putting out more of his profitable visions.

Kazuyuki Yamai - Another Atlus employee whose work goes back to Maken X, he was was responsible for directing both the Maniax and Maniax Chronicle edition of Nocturne, and also directed the Raidou Kuzunoha games (which were produced by Kaneko). When Index Corporation divided up Atlus R&D 1, Yamai was given Team Maniax (formed of the staff who worked with him on the expanded versions of Nocturne) to produce future titles in the mainline Shin Megami Tensei series.

Both Hashino and Yamai would be responsible for shaping the future of their respective series. Following that, we would gradually see the disappearance of other IPs like Trauma Center, the Dept. Heaven games from Sting, Growlanser (whose development team at Atlus, Career Soft, was dissolved in 2013), and many other smaller projects that Atlus liked to experiment on (i.e. Snowboard Kids, Power Instinct) as presumably more of the company's budget went into building a multimedia monster around contemporary Persona and other similar products.

*Note: Etrian Odyssey managed to survive so far because one of its creative leads, Shigeo Komori (whose work goes as far back as Princess Crown in 1997), was and is still around to direct and lead development of the games on presumably a shoestring budget.

Basically, Index Corporation had completely converged nearly all of Atlus' development staff around the visions of Hashino and Yamai.

This meant that Hashino and Yamai would be fully capable of injecting their particular worldviews into the games that would make up the face of today's Atlus, for better or worse. Hashino's works have been well known to include overt misogyny and discrimination against LGBTQ, with multiple instances of depicted gay and trans panic in Persona 3-5 and Catherine. Yamai's works exhibit xenophobia and extremist Japanese nationalism, with Shin Megami Tensei IV's endorsement of ethnic cleansing against Chinese people. Both have worked with writer Shinji Yamamoto, who was the lead scenario writer on both Persona 5 and SMT IV (with Yamamoto's other notable work being on Devil Survivor 2, where an entire arc is dedicated to peeping on the female characters while they are undressed and undergoing medical examinations). Both of those games notably also include significant writing contributions from Hashino and Yamai, respectively. And in the case of Hashino, he has revealed in various interviews that he does hold a number of those beliefs that he injects into the games (like his belief that a female protagonist for his recent games is unnatural and "not worth it"). Plus, now we have an upcoming remake of Catherine that features a new childlike character that is being depicted as both romanceable and possibly also trans for the sake of another transphobic scenario.

This is the Atlus that we have today.
 

Viata

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Is SMT V going to be shit, then? I was thinking in buying a Switch. That(SMT) and Dragon Quest(which was the reason I bought 3DS) are the only series that makes me buy consoles. :negative:

Hashino's works have been well known to include overt misogyny and discrimination against LGBTQ, with multiple instances of depicted gay and trans panic in Persona 3-5 and Catherine. Yamai's works exhibit xenophobia and extremist Japanese nationalism, with Shin Megami Tensei IV's endorsement of ethnic cleansing against Chinese people.
There is nothing wrong here, though.
 
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Vorark

Erudite
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
1,394
Yeah, the second to last paragraph is more about the author's opinion. What is interesting and prompted me to post it here was the before/after Index.

As much as I like the game, Persona 3 ruined Atlus. On one hand, it was such a breath of fresh air at the time, the opening animation alone was completely different to what most people were used to at the time and put SMT as a whole into the spotlight. On the other, it lead to Persona 4 and then the gates were open.
 

Viata

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I liked P4, disliked P3 and have no intention of playing P5. But SMT IV was horrible and I fear for SMT V. Strange Journey is still the best MegaTen and is the reason I still expect something from Atlus.
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Sometimes I vaguely imagine that games after SMT Nocturne have ever been made, then I remember I'm 120 hours into my Nocturne playthrough and I'm not even close to the end. So yeah, if you have all finished that ridiculously long RPG well done, until then I am going to stay on peak Atlus​
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
Meh. Playing Nocturne and Apocalypse back-to-back I can say that I vastly prefer Apocalypse. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with SMT5. I can understand where a lot of the disappointment in neo-Atlus comes from, it's people who are actually disappointed that the company has more or less gotten rid of the edgy undertones (though obviously that is a simplification). Even P5 which starts off with a heavy and oppressive atmosphere dissipates it quickly. But that's only one facet of the company. As gameplay designers they are still king, far better than they have ever been as they have taken old established concepts and refined them to further heights (Apocalypse press turn, #FE demon co-op). Atlus isn't merely SMT either, which is what this article seems to have a laser focus on. Etrian Odyssey exists and is the best modern dungeon crawler series out there, and that series has a very small amount of dark undertones.
 

Viata

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it's people who are actually disappointed that the company has more or less gotten rid of the edgy undertones
Nah, I disliked SMT IV because of the change of their demon art, but played the game from begin to end, it was also the first game I bought on the 3DS(instead of playing pirate version). I have not yet played Apocalypse because I'm playing Digimon World Re: Digitize on the 3DS so I can't comment on Apocalypse. The reason I love the series is because of the use of mythology and whatnot from many cultures as monters in their game, not because it's 2edgy4u.
As for Etrian Odyssey, you already said everything about it.
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
I disliked SMTIV mainly because it didn't feel.. ugh. I don't know. Look, SMTIV is the SMT game I would make if I had never heard of the series before, and someone handed me the cliffs notes of the first two games.

To me, SMT is the whole enchilada. The darker theme and tone, demon fusion, the more mature story elements, the difficult combat, sprawling dungeons, alignments, etc. SMT IV still has some of those things, and it's a fine game, but it isn't a very good or original Smt game.
 

Viata

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Nocturne has the most ingenious way of getting Seraph Michael on your party:
Fusion 2 Seraph + the third Seraph as sacrifice.
That was really cool.
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Messages
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Speaking of Persona 3/4 (I haven't played 5) can we just talk about how strange that gameplay loop is? You spend time outside the dungeon, kicking it like an average teen without a care in the world, to build up you arcana so you can fuse better personae for the dungeon part. But when you're in the dungeon, all you wanna do is push through so you can get back to the sim part. Especially in 4, this feels very surreal since half the time you spending hitting on the ladies and practicing your free-throw shots, someone is trapped in a world of merciless shadow monsters. It's a shame about Rise, but shit, I got mid-terms coming up, better study! At least in 3, Tartarus was basically extra-curricular, nobody was gonna die if you didn't find time that month. I'm not so sure this is better or worse though. Also, all the days that just get wasted, like working at Junes over the summer or taking summer courses in 3; like, mother fucker, you still have half a day to go baby-sit or some other thing, I don't know. Drives me crazy.
It's probably no surprise I vastly prefer 3, out of the two of them, but I feel like 4 really made some great changes and additions to that whole formula.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
Persona 5 solves those problems somewhat. Its still not the perfected formula but gameplay wise its a big step forward. For example you dont waste whole days with working as you can spend evening with extra activites (unless youve been to the metaverse ofc). Also the dungeons are vastly improved and you have a smaller "sidequest" dungeon that breaks up the long smashing of x-buttons in between the bigger dungeons.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

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Etrian Odyssey exists and is the best modern dungeon crawler series

The best modern DRPG series is Elminage. EO series is good for what it is: a casual mobile crawler --definitely worth playing (especially EO 3) but nowhere near the league of a full-fledged crawler like an Elminage game or something like Stranger of Sword City.
 

Nathir

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Aug 3, 2017
Messages
1,090
I liked P4, disliked P3 and have no intention of playing P5. But SMT IV was horrible and I fear for SMT V. Strange Journey is still the best MegaTen and is the reason I still expect something from Atlus.

Kaneko worked on that one though. I've come to realize his designs and vision are the main things I liked about the series. SMT V will probably have no social links and romancing etc. But it will definitely have an array of one-note anime characters, tons of unneeded text boxes that will go on an on about nothing. A focus on ''story and characters'' which will both be complete weeabo shite. At this point I'm just hoping it looks good and changes up the gameplay system. Press turn is fun, but they've been using it in every game for the last 15 years.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
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Messages
11,925
EO is bad and you should feel bad, the fact that they were able to sell the same fucking game 4+ times is a travesty.
 

Falksi

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Atlus' Tail....

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Why does Atlus hate money?

They have huge, terrific game library spread out throughout so many platforms and yet, they are not capitalising on it.

First, PS4/Xbone period was/is basically a one huge remasterfest.

Second, Switch is even better field for remasters since people are delighted with powerful hardware that allows portability. Devs are throwing there games from almost every period - from old Dooms to Blade Runner, Jedi Academy and NieR... but not them.

Dunno if there is a deal between Atlus and Sony that Personas should stay on Playstation but since Switch is propably closest thing able to serve as PS2 portable (SMT IV/A design was bottlenecked by 3DS limitations)... Nocturne? Digital Devil Saga duology? Raidou games? Translated SMT9 from original Xbox? Maken X? It is a goldmine.
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,944
Why does Atlus hate money?

They have huge, terrific game library spread out throughout so many platforms and yet, they are not capitalising on it.

First, PS4/Xbone period was/is basically a one huge remasterfest.

Second, Switch is even better field for remasters since people are delighted with powerful hardware that allows portability. Devs are throwing there games from almost every period - from old Dooms to Blade Runner, Jedi Academy and NieR... but not them.

Dunno if there is a deal between Atlus and Sony that Personas should stay on Playstation but since Switch is propably closest thing able to serve as PS2 portable (SMT IV/A design was bottlenecked by 3DS limitations)... Nocturne? Digital Devil Saga duology? Raidou games? Translated SMT9 from original Xbox? Maken X? It is a goldmine.

There is no deal. Atlus just doesn't want extra work.
Think about smt and persona development times,they are 4+ years,that is a huge time and money investment that atlus can't pay back in sales.
The only explanation for all of this is that they have a special position in Sega and can do whatever they want. Considering they were Sammy's special studio i have a feeling that the sega sammy merger gave them freedom to whatever they want.
I mean if you are already have a job and good pay and are doing things at your own pace without any interference,why would you change stuff?

And before people start quoting ownership pdf's,there is no way in hell sega would not force atlus to make remasters to make money if they actually controlled atlus.
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,156
They're also somewhat adverse to technology and new changes, considering they see emulators as the devil. Worse, they censored P5 Royal.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,169
Why does Atlus hate money?

They have huge, terrific game library spread out throughout so many platforms and yet, they are not capitalising on it.

First, PS4/Xbone period was/is basically a one huge remasterfest.

Second, Switch is even better field for remasters since people are delighted with powerful hardware that allows portability. Devs are throwing there games from almost every period - from old Dooms to Blade Runner, Jedi Academy and NieR... but not them.

Dunno if there is a deal between Atlus and Sony that Personas should stay on Playstation but since Switch is propably closest thing able to serve as PS2 portable (SMT IV/A design was bottlenecked by 3DS limitations)... Nocturne? Digital Devil Saga duology? Raidou games? Translated SMT9 from original Xbox? Maken X? It is a goldmine.
Rejoice! Tokyo Mirage FE is coming to the Switch!
 
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Messages
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I doubt that Atlus' developers would agree with characterizations of them as being homophobes, and most homosexuals in Japan would find depictions of their identity groups in Atlus games pretty amusing for the same reasons as the general Japanese population. They wouldn't know to be offended unless it was painstakingly pointed out to them over a long period of time (ergo, media reconditioning habituating them to a different viewpoint extraneous to those of their native culture).

"Gay panic" in Japanese media is basically a depiction of competing forces of nature that often surface in the moral-metaphysical viewpoints of non-Christian cultures -- the homosexual man has a natural interest in fucking attractive dudes and the hetero man has a natural interest in not getting butt plugged by the gays. The conflict between the two is a source of slapstick comedy, not a comment on what sexual behaviors are good and which ones are evil.

Why does Atlus hate money?

They have huge, terrific game library spread out throughout so many platforms and yet, they are not capitalising on it.

First, PS4/Xbone period was/is basically a one huge remasterfest.

Second, Switch is even better field for remasters since people are delighted with powerful hardware that allows portability. Devs are throwing there games from almost every period - from old Dooms to Blade Runner, Jedi Academy and NieR... but not them.

Dunno if there is a deal between Atlus and Sony that Personas should stay on Playstation but since Switch is propably closest thing able to serve as PS2 portable (SMT IV/A design was bottlenecked by 3DS limitations)... Nocturne? Digital Devil Saga duology? Raidou games? Translated SMT9 from original Xbox? Maken X? It is a goldmine.

Atlus and Sony obviously have a deal on Persona. I'm sure Sony lets them keep all the money and possibly finances or co-finances development as well.

Switch does seem curiously under exploited as a destination for remakes and third-party JRPGs in general compared to past handhelds, but I'm sure this arises from somewhere in the idiosyncrasies of the Japanese market for these games. Example, Japanese companies may be acting from the perception that everyone who wanted these games (salary-men in their 20s and 30s during the 2000s who wanted to relive the games of their youth while commuting to and from work) already have the hardware and software they need. As such, the audience for remakes and releases has shrank from what it used to be.

Also, the Switch itself is too big to work as a portable handheld device for commuters. I don't know if the Switch Lite will fix this.

Also, Japan is caught in the crunch of mobile games.

Also, Nintendo's hardward/software is probably still a major pain in the ass for third-party developers to develop content for, per established historic and industry standards.

Also, Japanese game development for RPG-scaled games seems to have consolidated in the past decade.

Atlus is better situated than most companies to address these liabilities, but they seemed more interested in being the developer of the future.
 
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purupuru

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
414
Why does Atlus hate money?

They have huge, terrific game library spread out throughout so many platforms and yet, they are not capitalising on it.

First, PS4/Xbone period was/is basically a one huge remasterfest.

Second, Switch is even better field for remasters since people are delighted with powerful hardware that allows portability. Devs are throwing there games from almost every period - from old Dooms to Blade Runner, Jedi Academy and NieR... but not them.

Dunno if there is a deal between Atlus and Sony that Personas should stay on Playstation but since Switch is propably closest thing able to serve as PS2 portable (SMT IV/A design was bottlenecked by 3DS limitations)... Nocturne? Digital Devil Saga duology? Raidou games? Translated SMT9 from original Xbox? Maken X? It is a goldmine.
They did quite a number of remasters on 3ds though (2 devil survivors, soul hacker, smt st, radiant historia). As for why they are not doing it now, maybe it's just that they made a lot of money with persona 5 and no longer have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get by. Also they are a small studio so hopefully they are just too busy making smtv.
 

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