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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

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CptMace

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Josh's post on SA says that "putting on medium armor makes a big difference". Is he right or is he in denial about his own creation?
Depends on enemy penetration.
Against some enemies, it'd be the sweet spot to reach another threshold of damage reduction, against some others it wouldn't.
Somethng you can't really achieve with rolls, as there's less incentive to actually consider the type of armor you'd use. Here, there are situation where having an extra AR is worth the tradeoff.
But as sawyer points it : do people really think of this, or do they just want to wear leather h24 because that's how rogues are according to ~delusion~
 

AwesomeButton

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https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=11#post482100258

2xrnLFc.jpg

A lot of these SA posters are retarded.. Why does Josh pander to these people? Does he just enjoy being the smartest person in the room?

That last guy talking about immunities in POE1.. did you even play the game?
You are missing the point of these posts here. This is my favorite post on the Codex yet!

:lol: Josh Sawyer destroys himself by means of his own (drum roll...) telemetry!

So, what did finally turn out - "according to science" no one wants to play those eliberated quirky builds that were so touted during PoE's development! Muscle wizards - no one gives a shit, rogue in plate wielding a war hammer - fuck off, people want a rogue in cape shooting a bow and using a short sword (or some such).

Attempts at engineering fail in the face of people's ingrained preconceptions, habits and prejudices about what a fantasy RPG character class looks like.

Bottom line, his whole system and jumping through nine burning hoops was an exercise in futility. Just as reasonable people used to argue in 2014.
 
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CptMace

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A lot of these SA posters are retarded.. Why does Josh pander to these people? Does he just enjoy being the smartest person in the room?

That last guy talking about immunities in POE1.. did you even play the game?
You are missing the point of these posts here. This is my favorite post on the Codex yet!

:lol: Josh Sawyer destroys himself by means of his own (drum roll...) telemetry!

So, what did finally turn out - "according to science" no one wants to play those eliberated quirky builds that were so touted during PoE's development! Muscle wizards - no one gives a shit, rogue in plate wielding a war hammer - fuck off, people want a rogue in cape shooting a bow and using a short sword (or some such).

Attempts at engineering fail in the face of people's ingrained preconceptions, habits and prejudices about what a fantasy RPG character class looks like.

Bottom line, his whole system and jumping through nine burning hoops was an exercise in futility. Just as reasonable people used to argue in 2014.

Taking the problem by the wrong end here.
He never said that people want to play muscle wizards or heavy armor rogues. He said that it was a shame that these archetypes were not supported by default on systems like AD&D notably.
And he did just that. Now, he pulled out the number in reaction, specifically, to the case of "rogues are too weak", to explain that he might have to do with the fact that they're played the traditional way.
But since you're free to put a breastplate on your rogue, as you're not in AD&D, it changes the deal quite a bit.

So yeah, we're going full circle. How many times do we have to clarify that the intention was never to make people play muscle wizards, or that sawyer never claimed so. He just wants to make these builds viable.
Now, his attempt would have been proven useless if 0% players had heavier armor than leather. It's just not the case.
 

FreeKaner

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Josh Sawyer's obsession with telemetrics and the lowest common denominator is leading this ship straight into the straits of mediocrity, where it will sink.

Dude, was thinking you were trolling but now I'm not sure, what's this 180-turn about?

Çaktırma başladım duramıyorum

It's extremely concerning how this telemetry obsession went, moreover inability to deliver promised updates and confused direction Sawyer is taking regarding development does not bode well.
 

Ulfhednar

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So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.
 

fantadomat

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And i was looking forward to quoting my old post with a smug smile and "Told you so" attitude. Now i have to wait for two months and another postponement.

Josh Sawyer's obsession with telemetrics and the lowest common denominator is leading this ship straight into the straits of mediocrity, where it will sink.
Mediaocracy sells well and even becomes Goty on the codex. Just look at that pile of shit called DOS2. The game is the meaning of the word mediocre. Only original thing in the game was the elfen bodies.

PoE2 will be mediocre game that everyone here will hate and it will become codex goty in December/January.


So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.
Are people really doing this shit? I run most of the game with the same armour and upgrade it once in a while.
 

Parabalus

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So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.

How about having two weapons sets, and swapping to the appropriate one? Or having 2 characters, one with no PEN and one with high PEN, and giving different targets?

Not spending 30 seconds prebuffing is one of the things PoE did right.
 

Immortal

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You are missing the point of these posts here. This is my favorite post on the Codex yet!

:lol: Josh Sawyer destroys himself by means of his own (drum roll...) telemetry!

So, what did finally turn out - "according to science" no one wants to play those eliberated quirky builds that were so touted during PoE's development! Muscle wizards - no one gives a shit, rogue in plate wielding a war hammer - fuck off, people want a rogue in cape shooting a bow and using a short sword (or some such).

Attempts at engineering fail in the face of people's ingrained preconceptions, habits and prejudices about what a fantasy RPG character class looks like.

Bottom line, his whole system and jumping through nine burning hoops was an exercise in futility. Just as reasonable people used to argue in 2014.

That's actually a good point. He reads the metrics as "No No You people aren't getting it!"

What it probably means is.. "I play a rogue because I wanna be a high damage leather wearer.. You Dumb fuck"
 

Ulfhednar

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How about having two weapons sets, and swapping to the appropriate one? Or having 2 characters, one with no PEN and one with high PEN, and giving different targets?

Not spending 30 seconds prebuffing is one of the things PoE did right.

Totally agree that minimizing prebuffing is one of the things PoE did right.

Seems to me the new penetration system just adds a lot of it right back in if I need to adjust my equipment all the time.
 

Infinitron

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So, what did finally turn out - "according to science" no one wants to play those eliberated quirky builds that were so touted during PoE's development! Muscle wizards - no one gives a shit, rogue in plate wielding a war hammer - fuck off, people want a rogue in cape shooting a bow and using a short sword (or some such).

Attempts at engineering fail in the face of people's ingrained preconceptions, habits and prejudices about what a fantasy RPG character class looks like.

Hasn't this always been obvious? I as a Codexer supported what Josh Sawyer was doing because I was interested in more ambitious system design, not because I thought it was more noob-friendly.
 

Prime Junta

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What it probably means is.. "I play a rogue because I wanna be a high damage leather wearer.. You Dumb fuck"

...and I'm too dim to invest in abilities that'll get me out of trouble before I get beat down as the squishy little fuck that I am.

Goons. Goons never change.
 

fantadomat

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So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.

How about having two weapons sets, and swapping to the appropriate one? Or having 2 characters, one with no PEN and one with high PEN, and giving different targets?

Not spending 30 seconds prebuffing is one of the things PoE did right.
Prebuffing is something done only once you get your ass handled. You don't go full buff every time you see a goblin. In BG2 only "regular" enemies that i needed to be buffed are the Beholders and the mind flayers.
 

FreeKaner

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So, what did finally turn out - "according to science" no one wants to play those eliberated quirky builds that were so touted during PoE's development! Muscle wizards - no one gives a shit, rogue in plate wielding a war hammer - fuck off, people want a rogue in cape shooting a bow and using a short sword (or some such).

That's people's fault then, I personally enjoy making out of ordinary or at least not the-most-common-trope characters. People's ridiculous religious adherence to D&D tropes should not limit design space.
 

Parabalus

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So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.

How about having two weapons sets, and swapping to the appropriate one? Or having 2 characters, one with no PEN and one with high PEN, and giving different targets?

Not spending 30 seconds prebuffing is one of the things PoE did right.
Prebuffing is something done only once you get your ass handled. You don't go full buff every time you see a goblin. In BG2 only "regular" enemies that i needed to be buffed are the Beholders and the mind flayers.

Why would you even do anything of the stuff Ulfhednar posted unless you got your ass handed to you?
I'll take shifting gear and spell selection to no brainer spamming spells for stats any day.
 
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CptMace

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So pre-buffing is cancer, but before each battle I should:

Change my armor to match or beat enemy attack penetration values.
Change my weapon set to penetrate through enemy armor values.
Adjust weapon modals in case that's not enough.
Change my wizard's grimoire in case my spell selection is not optimal.

Color me skeptical.
No.
What I meant is that if you want your rogue to dual wield dagger in leather armor, then good for you. But don't whine about enemies who tank pierce/slash damage, just have another, secondary weapon set.
Changing armor to make your character significantly more durable is something to consider, but then again you're free to go with leather all the time. And to whine about the squeeshiness of it.

I mean, it's tactical considerations. There are situations when you want your modal on, some when you want your modal off. Some where you have to reconsider the weaponry, and some where you could benefit from lighter/heavier armor. Not all at the same time and whatever you're facing.

Now yeah, pre-buffing is anoying specifically because there is no situation where casting bless/chant/duhs is to be considered, it's a no brainer.
 

AwesomeButton

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Is that it? Support for removal of per-rest in the SA thread is, at best, iffy. Seems to me Sawyer has become quite attached to his telemetry data, and is increasingly convinced that how people say they want to play is not how they actually want to play.
He has from time to time shown that attitude like "people think they know what's fun, but they really don't", but he is the super intelligent veteran of RPG design who knows better. This goes back at least to PoE. He is a bit too smug and vain at times. Personal opinion based only on public sources of course.

I'd rather say he uses it to support his claim that people's preconceptions about classes (as he details this as well) make them behave in a way that, in regard of how the game works, doesn't make that much sense.
The fact that 90%+ rogues wear leather or lesser armors is very interesting, because besides the parallel with AD&D (probably throuh IE games), there's no actual reason to see such numbers. Rogues don't lose anything that other classes wouldnt lose too by wearing breastplates.
And it's not that stupid a claim, considering such numbers. Whether he's right, it's interesting to have factual evidence of such behaviours.

People associate Rogues with leather armor, that's normal and part of the archetype. Why is there no reason to wear anything other than heavier armors or no armor at all? Why are Monks generally better when they use weapons? This is also one of the reasons the classes are samey. You CAN wear leather as a Rogue, but why would you? You CAN use your fists as a Monk, but why would you?

These preconceptions, my friends, are called "roleplaying", and Josh stubborny refuses to recognize them, or rather he is trying to "educate" people that they shouldn't follow these preconceptions. Like an Ayn Rand of game design, he wants you to be "free", and if he has to make being "free" obligatory, so be it, and you have no "free" option but to fall in line. :)

Taking the problem by the wrong end here.
He never said that people want to play muscle wizards or heavy armor rogues. He said that it was a shame that these archetypes were not supported by default on systems like AD&D notably.
And he did just that. Now, he pulled out the number in reaction, specifically, to the case of "rogues are too weak", to explain that he might have to do with the fact that they're played the traditional way.
But since you're free to put a breastplate on your rogue, as you're not in AD&D, it changes the deal quite a bit.

So yeah, we're going full circle. How many times do we have to clarify that the intention was never to make people play muscle wizards, or that sawyer never claimed so. He just wants to make these builds viable.
Now, his attempt would have been proven useless if 0% players had heavier armor than leather. It's just not the case.
Either you are misinterpreting my words or you need to lrn2read.

I am never saying or mean to say that Josh intended to make people play muscle wizards.

On the other hand, he in fact has said that there are people who want to play muscle wizards. Something you state he has not said.
 

Ulfhednar

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Why would you even do anything of the stuff Ulfhednar posted unless you got your ass handed to you?
I'll take shifting gear and spell selection to no brainer spamming spells for stats any day.
I spend a lot of time in battle switching between weapon sets and managing weapon modals in the beta. A lot more than I did in the first game. Then you have to remember to switch it all back to your default after the battle is over. It takes about 30 secs and a lot of clicking. It reminds me a lot of prebuffing in the IE games, except that it's management that occurs during and after the fight rather than before.
 

AwesomeButton

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That's people's fault then, I personally enjoy making out of ordinary or at least not the-most-common-trope characters. People's ridiculous religious adherence to D&D tropes should not limit design space.
I love making uncommon builds.

Probably this is why Arcanum is one of my favorite games of all time.

But if you back a game touting itself as the direct descendant of the Infinity Engine games, and are then expecting it to provide uncommon builds, you've got the wrong address, is what the answer should be.

Should be, if this game is indeed a spiritual successor to the aforementioned games.
 
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CptMace

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It's extremely concerning how this telemetry obsession went, moreover inability to deliver promised updates and confused direction Sawyer is taking regarding development does not bode well.
On the other hand, it's interesting to witness what stats-assisted design can produce. Especially in the hands of someone who notoriously likes to get into these things.
I mean, someone's got to experiment hey.
These preconceptions, my friends, are called "roleplaying"
The 5% breastplate/scale rogues are roleplaying too.
On the other hand, he in fact has said that there are people who want to play muscle wizards. Something you state he has not said.
Oh I expressed myself poorly. I meant to say he never said that a majority of people were interested in these exotic builds, but there are obviously some who are, as the telemetrics show btw.
I mean, they're exotic for a reason.
But the main concern he had was that AD&D made it impossible from the get-go. Or more recent versions of D&D who give absolutely nothing interesting to distributing stats in an original fashion for most classes.
he is trying to "educate" people that they shouldn't follow these preconceptions
Err.. no. He just said that rogues feel squeeshy when they're played the squeeshy way. Then said they're played the squeeshy way because they're seen as leather-dagger-dudes.
You may associate these two reasonings, but there's actually no link there.
Now, the cool thing is, you can play rogues a less-squeeshy-way here, t'is all he said.
 
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Parabalus

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That's people's fault then, I personally enjoy making out of ordinary or at least not the-most-common-trope characters. People's ridiculous religious adherence to D&D tropes should not limit design space.

Should be, if this game is indeed a spiritual successor to the aforementioned games.

Was Deadfire even marketed as a spiritual successor? PoE1 sure, but Deadfire?

IIRC Infinitron even posted how JES is happy to be letting go off IE baggage.



moreover inability to deliver promised updates

Its a fucking beta update, tell me about it if they don't deliver a figstarter promised feature.

Isn't the current multiclassing system a broken promise?
 

AwesomeButton

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PoE should have been less like IE games not more.
Then they shouldn't have marketed it as being like them. Plain and simple.

I wouldn't mind playing any garbage they would have put out if they weren't claiming that their garbage is the next IE game, but better. It's not, it's garbage, a little less on its own, a little more if compared to the original.
 

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