I want to enjoy thief, but I can't

[TripJack]

Are actually the Dishonored any good?

the first game is alright for mindless action, has some cool levels

as a stealth game it sucks tho

 

[AN4RCHID]

Got the itch to play some classics I've missed and purchased Thief Gold from GOG. I'm currently in Song of The Caverns.

deama has a point. There's no penalty to just knocking out or killing guards, which would make every level trivially easy if you aren't ghostlarping. Most of the time levels don't even have alarms and even when they do like in the prison, I'm not sure if the alarm actually did anything? Maybe I had already whacked the guard who would have responded.

The level design is extremely hit and miss. The Thieves' Guild is the perfect example; it's half really tight stealth setpieces like the casino and the two houses, and then the other half is the worst kind of 90's sewer maze hell. Some of the objectives seem like absolute bullshit like that safe hidden behind the banner in Donald's house. How the hell am I supposed to guess that this one banner can be cut down? Other levels have very good signposting, like Mages Tower where different sectors are easy to distinguish visually and the map has some resemblance to the actual level layout.

I'm surprised by how much of this game is about tomb raiding. Absolutely hated the first Cathedral level and the Bonehoard with their sprawling and samey monster-infested labyrinths. On the other hand The Lost City had great architecture and layout, but still it felt more like a dungeon crawler; I didn't do any sneaking or thieving for the entire level. Looks like I have a return visit to the Cathedral coming up in a few levels, ugh.

Does Thief 2 make any improvements to the AI or visibility/audibility systems?

 

[JarlFrank]

Thief 1 generally is intended to give you the experience of playing a typical RPG Thief - crawling dungeons is part of that.

Thief 2 focuses much more on breaking into mansions, warehouses, churches, homes etc.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

deama has a point. There's no penalty to just knocking out or killing guards, which would make every level trivially easy if you aren't ghostlarping. Most of the time levels don't even have alarms and even when they do like in the prison, I'm not sure if the alarm actually did anything? Maybe I had already whacked the guard who would have responded.

"Undercover" is the next mission. Have a go at that, then come back here and be ready to eat some of your words about alarms.

The level design is extremely hit and miss. The Thieves' Guild is the perfect example; it's half really tight stealth setpieces like the casino and the two houses, and then the other half is the worst kind of 90's sewer maze hell. Some of the objectives seem like absolute bullshit like that safe hidden behind the banner in Donald's house. How the hell am I supposed to guess that this one banner can be cut down? Other levels have very good signposting, like Mages Tower where different sectors are easy to distinguish visually and the map has some resemblance to the actual level layout.

The bad examples you named are from missions exclusive to Thief Gold, and were not part of the original release. They have often been criticized for their level design.

I'm surprised by how much of this game is about tomb raiding. Absolutely hated the first Cathedral level and the Bonehoard with their sprawling and samey monster-infested labyrinths. On the other hand The Lost City had great architecture and layout, but still it felt more like a dungeon crawler; I didn't do any sneaking or thieving for the entire level. Looks like I have a return visit to the Cathedral coming up in a few levels, ugh.

You're gonna have more fun with Thief 2 then, they radically changed the focal points of level design because of people like you complaining about those very things. Personally I enjoy the many different scenarios offered by the first Thief game.

Does Thief 2 make any improvements to the AI or visibility/audibility systems?

Yes, T2 AI is actually less aware of its surroundings. You'd have to be very familiar with the AI routines in the two games to notice this, though.

 

[agentorange]

deama has a point. There's no penalty to just knocking out or killing guards, which would make every level trivially easy if you aren't ghostlarping. Most of the time levels don't even have alarms and even when they do like in the prison, I'm not sure if the alarm actually did anything? Maybe I had already whacked the guard who would have responded.

The onus is on the player to choose whether or not to knock out or kill guards (killing guards is expressively forbidden on the higher difficulty levels by the way), as it should be, because what logical, consistent penalties could be made to keep the player from doing so? Dishonored handled this through its chaos system, tallying up kills and knockouts at the end of each level and basically placing you on one of two pathways accordingly; I enjoy both Dishonored games but this mechanic is the biggest problem I have with them, because it places a firm label on your playstyle--you are no longer just a thief or an assassin going through the game as you want to, you are now a Low Chaos or High Chaos (or whatever term the designers came up with) thief or assassin. Rather than feeling like an organic, reactive scenario, everything is instead reduced to a tick on a meter in one direction or another. What you refer to sarcastically as "ghostlarping" is the proper way to handle penalties, that is to not have them, instead create an intricate situation, give the player every tool they need and allow them to use, or not use them as they see fit--difficulties and penalties will then arise naturally rather than being reduced to some binary bullshit.

 

[AN4RCHID]

The bad examples you named are from missions exclusive to Thief Gold, and were not part of the original release. They have often been criticized for their level design.

Thieves' Guild is just a useful example because it has the best and worst right next to each other. My least favorite levels overall have been T:TDP originals.

You're gonna have more fun with Thief 2 then, they radically changed the focal points of level design because of people like you complaining about those very things. Personally I enjoy the many different scenarios offered by the first Thief game.

I don't necessarily mind the variety, like I said I did enjoy the Lost City level. My problem with the Cathedral and Bonehoard missions was how convoluted and generic the maps were. It's probably better once you know the layout, but going through those blind was a headache.

Yes, T2 AI is actually less aware of its surroundings

In terms of sound detection I wouldn't mind less sensitivity. On some of the stone floors it seems like I can't move a millimeter without every guard in the area instantly triangulating my position. Regarding visual detection the AI already seems pretty retarded though.

The onus is on the player to choose whether or not to knock out or kill guards (killing guards is expressively forbidden on the higher difficulty levels by the way), as it should be, because what logical, consistent penalties could be made to keep the player from doing so?

Most obviously, just make it harder to knock out guards without being detected. They could also have a simple scoring system with points for gold stolen and penalties for guards whacked. Dishonored's chaos system is sort of like this but couched in a gay "player choice" presentation where playing like a retard and playing stealthily are supposed to be equally valid and encouraged (even though low chaos is clearly the implicitly preferred playstyle, Harvey Smith is too much of a puss to come out and say it).

 

[Master]

Does Thief 2 make any improvements to the AI or visibility/audibility systems?

They can relight torches sometimes. Some have a kind of high helmet that prevents you from blackjacking.

But... Calling Cathedral and Bonehoard convoluted. They are supposed to be. As people don't live there. You like clearer signposting in Mages Tower, thats fine and it makes sense there. But not every level should be like that. This is not Bioshock.