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Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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Iron working isn't even that complex of a thing, nomadic tribes in Central Asia where iron quality is questionable were working iron.
The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.

Mesoamericans had toys with wheels, they knew what a wheel was and how to make it. It was that they were mostly useless in type of environment they lived in, where they used llamas and people for transferring which proved better in landscape they were working on. Mesoamericans also had advanced agriculture techniques that could in a worse environment compared to Europe manage to feed more people. Technology IRL isn't a linear bar to fill to unlock next one. Moreover peoples that are isolated tend to not be part of cumulative technological advancements connected civilisations make (that is the 5 river civilisations of what later made "silkroad").
Are you trying to tell me that the whole of the Americas is jungles and mountains and that is why they didn't use the wheel?
:whatho:
Get help mate and stop reading sjw news that try to warp history.

Here are two facts:

1. Mesoamericans had toys and other inconsequential artefacts that had wheels on them
2. Central America and Andean mountains have very irregular elevation and climate that's not very kind to wooden work.

Now muse this, why could it be that peoples who were capable of architectural and agrarian skill to make terrace farms, floating gardens, stone pyramids and houses not use wheels that they knew how to make and instead preferred to use llamas and man-portable platforms to transfer objects from one location to other?

Here is another question for you, why was it that the Spanish who arrived in the area similarly preferred to use man-portable platforms and animals to transfer large quantities of objects until they brought large quantities of horses and oxes to americas?

And a last point, wheeled vehicles were not used in any place outside of Mesopotamia and Western Asian Steppes before those were diffused to rest of Eurasian continent, both places of remarkable dry weather and flat landscape with lots of large animals that can pull vehicles on wheels.
 

Jacob

Pronouns: Nick/Her
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
what are we even arguing about tbh

isn't it a fact already that the more advanced African civilizations are the one that adopt imported religion like Christianity or Islam
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Nubians and Ethiopians are not lightskinned, neither are West Africans where there has been iron-working dated to at least 2000 years. Saying "NUH UH Europeans bought those there because you see Europe had iron working BEFORE that!" is disingenuous at its best. Africa is not poor in iron and it had developed communities and states with military why wouldn't it have fucking iron working?

I was going to say Nubia, but I figured he would argue that was trade/cultural contact with Egypt further down the Nile.

I know exactly what he would say about Nigerian ironworking from later than 600BC: well known Phoenician/Carthaginian trade route.

His argument is that none of this was discovered locally. He’s probably right. Big deal. You could say the same thing about everywhere on earth (including Europe) outside of Egypt/Mesopotamia, the North China plain and the Indus Basin.

But the idea that any civilization would skip copper and bronze and go right to terrestrial iron working on its own is not credible. Copper and gold are the metals every civilization starts with because there are lots of sources that don’t need to be refined; in many cases they don’t even need to be heated. Once you have people who work with copper, it’s not a stretch to imagine them trying to improve it. You stumble on a deposit of copper and tin, or copper and arsenic, apply some heat and you’ve got bronze. If you have a copper age, you pick up basic smelting to get copper out of malachite. But sub-Saharan Africa had no chalcolithic period and it had no Bronze Age.

Eurasian civilizations had been tooling around with rare meteoric iron (which is the only raw iron that doesn’t need to be smelted on earth) for over a thousand years before they figured out how to get temperatures high enough to smelt terrestrial iron ore into something workable.

You need at least a primitive blast furnace/bloomery to turn iron ore into anything useful, and that’s a very strange innovation for a culture with no history of metalworking to stumble on. There’s no other reason to get temperatures that high, it’s very hard work, and there are much easier things to smelt in the first place. Plenty of copper in sub-saharan Africa, too, but they didn’t do anything with it. Why would iron be different unless they picked it up somewhere else?

The fact that bronze working and iron smelting show up in sub-saharan Africa at the exact same time is another pretty powerful argument for cultural diffusion.

I don’t think this means anything beyond the fact that western, central and southern Africa are really geographically isolated.

And I don’t see how anyone could use this as an argument in favor of whitey. Europeans didn’t discover any of this shit either, they just happened to be closer to the degenerate asiatics who created civilization.
 

Iznaliu

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The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.

Another key factor that's not been mentioned yet is that there were no animals that could be easily domesticated (despite the beliefs of Mormons who want you to believe that they used tapirs) and used as pack animals for pulling chariots, carts etc.
 
Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
The same could be said about the wheel,yet the retarded American indians didn't come up with it. Looking in retrospect everything is easy because you know it. Do you think that someone just saw a shiny rock and decided to build a massive furnace that will be able to have the adequate heat to melt the shiny rock? Most of those things were found out by accidents.

Another key factor that's not been mentioned yet is that there were no animals that could be easily domesticated (despite the beliefs of Mormons who want you to believe that they used tapirs) and used as pack animals for pulling chariots, carts etc.
are we limiting ourselves to south america?
the american bison is a close relative to the common domesticated cow — close enough to create fertile offspring(e.g, beefalo, american cattle, etc.,)
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
His argument is that none of this was discovered locally. He’s probably right. Big deal. You could say the same thing about everywhere on earth (including Europe) outside of Egypt/Mesopotamia, the North China plain and the Indus Basin.

My original point, which still stands, is that humans in African hadn't progressed much past the Stone Age left to their own devices—and that therefore an RPG based on purely African history is somewhat difficult to do. That's not an argument in favor or whitey or in disfavor of blackie. It's just a fact.

"Yeah but there was this civilization in Africa!" Pay attention to the articles you're Googling up, you dong-mongering buttpirates. That civilization was governed by a sultanate, tied to ancient Greece or Rome, hitched to the wagon of ancient Egypt, or what-have-you. Otherwise, no great African civilization developed on its own. Primitive tribal cultures did develop, but never great civilizations.

This is in contrast to Mesoamericans, who actually developed great civilizations and empires from the ground up without first being franchises imported from elsewhere. Their civilization was all-native. They developed writing, studied astronomy, kept calendars, and built world wonders, all on their own. That never happened in Africa without the intercession of an external great civilization.

I'm a nationalist and a patriot, right? Well, American civilization is a franchise of European civilization; a particularly frisky one, but a franchise just the same. That's just a simple, logical fact.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm a nationalist and a patriot, right? Well, American civilization is a franchise of European civilization; a particularly frisky one, but a franchise just the same. That's just a simple, logical fact

...by your logic European civilization is just a punk offshoot of Levantine civilization: Punic alphabet, Punic astronomy, Canaanite god. That said, if you want to go sacrifice a child to praise Baal and thank our ancestors for having the good sense to plunder the best ideas of their neighbors, I am totally on board.

Maybe five or maybe six great civilizations developed on their own, EVER. The absence of something extaordinary is mundane.

Why doesn’t post Islamic Africa count for an RPG setting? Who cares if it’s native? Let me conquer Timbuktu for the Songhai and I’ll be a happy man.
 
Joined
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Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I'm a nationalist and a patriot, right? Well, American civilization is a franchise of European civilization; a particularly frisky one, but a franchise just the same. That's just a simple, logical fact

...by your logic European civilization is just a punk offshoot of Levantine civilization: Punic alphabet, Punic astronomy, Canaanite god. That said, if you want to go sacrifice a child to praise Baal and thank our ancestors for having the good sense to plunder the best ideas of their neighbors, I am totally on board.

Maybe five or maybe six great civilizations developed on their own, EVER. The absence of something extaordinary is mundane.

Why doesn’t post Islamic Africa count for an RPG setting? Who cares if it’s native? Let me conquer Timbuktu for the Songhai and I’ll be a happy man.
probably because any video game involving islam will eventually end with the developer HQ getting blown up
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
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Bulgaria
I'm a nationalist and a patriot, right? Well, American civilization is a franchise of European civilization; a particularly frisky one, but a franchise just the same. That's just a simple, logical fact

...by your logic European civilization is just a punk offshoot of Levantine civilization: Punic alphabet, Punic astronomy, Canaanite god. That said, if you want to go sacrifice a child to praise Baal and thank our ancestors for having the good sense to plunder the best ideas of their neighbors, I am totally on board.

Maybe five or maybe six great civilizations developed on their own, EVER. The absence of something extaordinary is mundane.

Why doesn’t post Islamic Africa count for an RPG setting? Who cares if it’s native? Let me conquer Timbuktu for the Songhai and I’ll be a happy man.
Go play Crusader king 2. It have more RPG mechanics than most rpgs this day.
 

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