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Free Stars: Children of Infinity - upcoming Star Control 2 sequel from Fred Ford's Pistol Shrimp Games

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And reading the Stardock suit is just :abyssgazer:

Claiming that Ford and Reiche aren't the creators of Star Control? And that Stardock, "by virtue of owning the "Star Control" trademark, is due all of the "fame, reputation, and goodwill" directed by fans toward the Star Control games."

If I were a lawyer I'd be making the biggest bowl of popcorn the world has ever seen.
 

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Stardock's official comments: https://www.stardock.net/article/487690/qa-regarding-star-control-and-paul-and-fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the recent press on the topic of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make our position clear and address inaccuracies being promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.


Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: Paul and Fred have been promoting their new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as an official sequel to Star Control. This creates confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws.

In retaliation, Paul and Fred began objecting to the sale of the DOS games being sold online, despite the fact that they’ve been for sale online since before we acquired Star Control from Atari. Their contention is that the licensing agreement for their characters and lore has expired thus terminating the right to sell and distribute the old DOS games.


Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement. The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if their false claims remained unchallenged.


Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II. For many years, however, Paul and Fred have represented themselves as if they personally created the games themselves. We believe this was in an effort to associate themselves personally with Star Control without having the legal right to do so. In reality, it was a great team of talented folks that Paul and Fred gathered together to develop the game. In fact, we highlighted many of those contributors in our celebration of Star Control II’s 25th anniversary: https://www.stardock.com/games/arti...25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.


Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.


Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit? Is your goal to put Paul and Fred out of business?

A: Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse. We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control. However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?


Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Our complaint has not involved any of the copyrights of Star Control 1 and 2. We have operated on the assumption that those copyrights are held by their respective authors. Our complaint is that Paul and Fred have, after a quarter-century and right as the marketing of Star Control: Origins is ramping up, decided to announce a game and claim it is related to Star Control creating market confusion and putting us in the position of having to compete for the good will and reputation that is exclusively held by the trademark holder.

Just two examples where our own box art is used to promote a competing title:

7b4a9732-f5b7-4c6f-baea-88d85182639f.png



Q: Why did Stardock go after Paul and Fred when it seems you had a friendly relationship to start?

A: We didn’t “go after” Paul and Fred - we were left with no choice once they filed false DMCA claims against the Star Control games, even the one they admit they had nothing to do with. We had been trying for months to work out an amicable co-existence agreement.


Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on the development of Star Control: Origins?

A: Not at all. The team is focused on making the best Star Control game yet and we’re making fantastic progress every week. You can read the latest update on the game’s development here.


For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/arti...25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

 

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The "designers, not creators!" thing rings extremely false, but I guess it's part of Stardock's attempted legal strategy.
 

Jack Of Owls

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Every time I look at the artwork for the original box cover of Star Control 2 I think: what a piece of cheap cheese! I'm surprised actor Anthony Perkins or Universal Pictures never sued them for using Norman Bates' likeness.

I try to take something pithy away from threads like this, try to find at least something informative. Here I learned that there is a major science fiction author of soap space operas named "Ringo."
 

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I've gone through like 73 draft posts and thought the better of each.

The most incredible thing is that Codex posts (including mine) are included as in Exhibit N to the complaint. I sort of wish that weren't the case, but what're you going to do?
 

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The most incredible thing is that Codex posts (including mine) are included as in Exhibit N to the complaint. I sort of wish that weren't the case, but what're you going to do?

IIRC that also happened with inXile's trademark dispute with Steve Jackson Games over Autoduel. This is definitely a step up though.
 

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Here's a useful summary by RPS: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/02/23/star-control-stardock-lawsuit-countersuit/

Star Control lead devs fire back at Stardock lawsuit

star-control-2.jpg


Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III, the lead developers of the original Star Control games, have sent their lawyers into the fight Stardock started over the series and filed a counterclaim of their own. Stardock are currently making a reboot-o-prequel to the sci-fi RPG-o-adventure, named Star Control: Origins, after buying Star Control assets from Atari in 2013 and want to make quite clear who’s in charge of the series and rights. Ford and Reiche, who are currently making a Star Control sequel in all but name, contest that Atari couldn’t have sold certain rights to Stardock because they had reverted to Ford and Reiche long before then.

Stardock are courtfighting with Ford and Reiche over three main things: who holds the rights to the original games and can sell them; who can use characters and lore created for the original games; and who’s allowed to associate their new game with the originals.

Mess #1: both parties selling the original games at times and claiming the other never had the right to. Ford and Reiche had sold those first Star Controls through the digital store GOG for several years, after noticing Atari were selling them. As Ford and Reiche tell it, Atari acknowledged that Atari held the Star Control trademark but the pair held the rights to the games, and they struck a deal to cut them in. Stardock say the duo did not have the rights to do this.

Stardock, for their part, started selling the original games through the Steam store in 2017, and Ford and Reiche say they didn’t have the right to do that. The duo say they petitioned Steam to remove them but Steam sided with Stardock’s counter-claim. Talking of a need to “clear the deck” while trying to resolve all this, Ford and Reiche removed the games from GOG in December. However, the games returned to the store several weeks later at Stardock’s bidding.

Mess #2: the laws of lore. Ford and Reiche say they own the copyright on the first two games, lore and aliens and all. Wardell has publicly acknowledged this. Ford and Reiche’s counterclaim includes several snippets of e-mails from Wardell asking if they could arrange deals to include some of the old aliens or ships, which they turned down. They were a bit riled, then, to see artwork of alien races from their games on Stardock’s site. They say that the spacepolice in Origins are called Star Control, which is part of lore they created. And they say they see a ship of theirs in this Origins marketing screenshot:

star-control-origins.jpg


Mess #3: associating your new game with the old Star Controls. Ford and Reiche are currently making Ghosts Of The Precursors, a game they have described as “a direct sequel to Star Control II”. It doesn’t use the Star Control name but it’s the same world, the same story, and the same sort of thing, picking up from the last one they made before another developer stepped in. Stardock object to Ford and Reiche essentially placing Ghosts in a series Stardock feel they own, they dislike Ford and Reiche using old Star Control cover art in promoting it, and they even object to the pair calling themselves the “creators” of the first two games.

Stardock’s filing says that it’s Accolade–the publishers–who created Star Control I and II. They claim that “any authorship that Reiche and Ford may have contributed to the Classic Star Control Games was limited” because the games were the product of a team. More than that, Stardock say they have reason to believe the pair “may not have created any of the artwork, animation or characters incorporated in the games, or otherwise substantially contributed to the authorship” of the first two games.

As much as I dislike our culture’s cult of auteurship which assigns all credit (or blame) to only one or two people while downplaying others, Stardock do seem to be getting a bit carried away. In video games vernacular, it’s understood that “creators” doesn’t mean “these two people did every single thing”. Yes, other people worked on them–they’re listed in the credits, and Star Control I’s manual particularly highlights the contributions of Greg Johnson and Robert Leyland–but this is a bit much. I do wonder what’s making them feel confident enough to make such bold claims.

Ford and Reiche have jokingly responded by wondering if they are clones of the original Fred and Paul, grown in vats.

On the flipside, Ford and Reiche dislike how Stardock have connected Origins to their original games. They object to an interview which explains Stardock CEO Brad Wardell said he’d talked frequently with them about Origins, when they say they only talked once and want nothing to do with it. They also object to Wardell suggesting Origins and their own new game are connected, in an image from that interview. They dislike Stardock selling and showcasing a bundle named Star Control: The Ur-Quan Masters, because while the pair don’t own the ‘Star Control’ trademark, they do have ‘The Ur-Quan Masters’.

In short, both sides say the other is leeching from their brand, sowing confusion, damaging their trademark, and all that.

ur-quan-yehat.gif


To reach the root of this confusion, we need to dig down for a brief history lesson.

The first Star Control came out in 1990, developed by Ford and Reiche’s studio, Toys For Bob, and published by Accolade. Ford and Reiche followed up with a sequel, Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters, in 1992. When Accolade fancied a third game but the duo didn’t want to make it, Reiche gave the publisher a license to include the characters and story created for the first games. This result in 1996’s Star Control 3, made by Legend Entertainment. After Accolade’s plans for a fourth fell through, the series went dormant. French publisher Infogrames bought Accolade in 1999, and Infogrames later renamed itself Atari after buying that too. Then in 2013, Stardock bought Atari’s Star Control assets as part of a bankruptcy fire sale. Soon after, Stardock announced the game they later named Star Control: Origins.

The question seems to be: what exactly did Stardock buy? Less than they think, Ford and Reiche claim. Documents Stardock provide show they got the Star Control trademark and Star Control 3 copyright off Atari, but they don’t list copyrights for the first two games. Wardell has seemed to acknowledge that Reiche had the copyright on them, as pointed out above. However, in one e-mail to Reiche which Stardock included as evidence in their suit, Wardell does say that they bought “all of Accolade’s publishing rights for the original trilogy”, which would be slightly different.

star-control-oh-god-how-long-is-this-post.jpg


One thing that might seem fairly clear is that the trademark for the Star Control name has been held by publishers, passing from Accolade to Atari/Infogrames then Stardock. When Ford and Reiche released an open-source version of Star Control II in 2002, they named it simply The Ur-Quan Masters because the Star Control trademark was with Accolade. And after Ford and Reiche caught Atari selling those first three games on GOG, the store signed one deal with Atari to license the Star Control name and a separate agreement with the duo for the games themselves.

However, Ford and Reiche now say Atari’s renewals of the Star Control trademark in 2002 and 2007 were fraudulent because they hadn’t sold Star Control since 2000. On those grounds, they want the trademark, since transferred to Stardock, cancelled.

Ford and Reiche’s counterclaim seems to be pushing to take control of Star Control again. They claim that, owing to various expiration and termination clauses in their agreements with Accolade, “all rights to Star Control, Star Control II, and Reiche’s Preexisting Characters used in Star Control 3 reverted to Reiche on or about April 1, 2001” – and they want a judgement to state that decisively. They want to be the only people able to sell the first three games. They want Stardock to stop saying “The Ur-Quan Masters” and stop implying the pair are connected to Star Control: Origins. They want Stardock to return masters and source code for the original games, which they got off Atari. And they want money in damages and costs, obvs.

Stardock, as detailed in December’s opening salvo, basically say and want all that but the other way round.

And that’s where we are! Both sides have claimed their ground and fired their opening legal shots, and we’ll get to see where it goes from here. Both ask for jury trials.

If you want more detail on this, Ars Technica go even deeper and have the court filings to dig into. They also have responses from Stardock fellas which basically say “Oh yeah? But we’re the ones who are right.” Stardock have posted a Q&A from their perspective with less legalese too.

What even is Star Control though? Mate, go read Richard Cobbett’s Star Control II retrospective.

Oh, and to end: offering further proof that video game brands are a hellish breed of ouroboros, the Accolade name was recently revived by Billion Soft to release a new Bubsy game.
 

LESS T_T

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Some of Brad Wardell's posts on Stardock forum: https://forums.stardock.net/486284/page/5/

What I find painful is that Stardock does not seem to understand that if both these projects supported each other, they would potentially double (if not more) the marketing for Star Control, and they would both benefit from it.
Would "Ghosts of the Precursors" benefit from the marketing done for "Star Control: Origins"? Yes, of course they would! But Stardock would also benefit massively from having another Star Control game being made by the creators of the series.

This just seems like a dumb move where no one really wins, especially the fans.

That was our hope as well. My email, which is Exhibit E in the Stardock complaint, explicitly outlines that if they ever wanted to make a new game in the Ur-Quan continuity, we would be willing to help promote it even if they didn't want to develop it with us. That was in 2013. But that is by no means an invitation to start trying to advertise ones game as a Star Control game. Imagine if they tried to make a "true sequel" to Skylanders and see what would happen.

Even then, we didn't act until they made the DMCA requests even on Star Control 3 which we literally hold the copyright for (even if you grant them every claim they make as true, they do not hold a copyright on Star Control 3 in any way shape or form thus making a DMCA claim very troubling) we felt we had no choice but to act to protect our rights.

It is very difficult to amicably work something out with someone who is making public insults and libelous charges against you.

It has been really eye-opening for me, personally, to see people outraged about lawyer-speak on the word "creator" while they have made a public press release labeling me, by name, a non-party to the lawsuit, a thief resulting in an endless torrent of abuse and attacks and a couple of death threats.

Regardless of the semantics of creator vs. designer you cannot simply allow someone to use your IP without your license or it stops being your IP. We aren't the ones who hired a PR firm to write a press release to accuse others of criminal activity.

It takes two parties to have a conversation.

Perhaps you should be talking to them.
 
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Ars Techinca's extensive article on this case, favored towards Reiche and Ford:https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...suit-aims-to-invalidate-stardocks-trademarks/

Wardell is likely to be treated unfairly by the press here and I think we know why.

Anyway, shitshow gonna shitshow.

It's going to end up in a settlement, this is just passive agressive nerds nerding out.

Seriously, do you really think in ANY other industry, pertaining to a legal lawsuit, you would have two sides of beta males crying publicly about how much of a big meanie the other side is and how better of a nerd they are about something nerdy than the other side? No, people would just shut up, work, and let the lawyers handle it, and all settlements would be done behind closed doors. Only in the game industry do we see this.

Also, never read Ars Technica user comments... they're TERRIBLE... even worse than Reddit... despicable faggots, the whole bunch of them... it will make you wish you could pass your fist your their screen and smash their face with it
 

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Some of Brad Wardell's posts on Stardock forum: https://forums.stardock.net/486284/page/5/

Huh, there's a Star Control 2 dev in that thread:

I'm Greg Johnson. I was there through the entire development of StarControl 1 and 2. I don't want to comment on ownership or trademarks. I've been a game developer for 34 years and questions of ownership and legalities of rights are not always clear, or for that matter fair. Disputes like this are really best settled in friendly ways where everyone can win, since legal battles just suck money and time and create stress and bad feelings. Life is too short for that. What I can and will say is that Paul and Fred created both of those games. It was really the two of them, and others like me and Erol and whomever just contracted and did bits and pieces under Paul's direction. This Universe, Story, Characters and Gameplay all come from the amazing mind of Paul. It's pointless for people on a board to guess what's really going on behind the scenes or to judge who is right or wrong. I wish Paul and Fred and Brad and Stardock a friendly and mutually beneficial, mutually respectful resolution to this. And I'm sorry it's been so stressful for all of you. It's easy to get dug in. Good luck in finding a solution. And to all the fans - best to just hang in there and wait. And don't judge people harshly when you don't really know what's up. Lets all cross our fingers that they will find answers.
 

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Why am I suddenly getting flashbacks to the Doctrinal War in Star Control II?

Two large fleets duking it out over a prize, the Sa-Matra Star Control rights. And us plebs mucking about, witnessing the fight.

The question is: Who are the Kzer-Za, and who are the Kohr-Ah?
 

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Why am I suddenly getting flashbacks to the Doctrinal War in Star Control II?

Two large fleets duking it out over a prize, the Sa-Matra Star Control rights. And us plebs mucking about, witnessing the fight.

The question is: Who are the Kzer-Za, and who are the Kohr-Ah?
Are their attorneys Dnyarri in this scenario?
 
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Gendou Ars Legatus Legionis
REPLYFEB 22, 2018 3:04 PM
I used to be a big Stardock fan - I was even one of those misguided souls who pre-ordered 'Elemental' sight-unseen based on the strength of their previous work.

But Brad Wardell has completely turned me off from supporting them, to the point that I refuse to give Stardock any further financial support. He's not just a horrible boss who has publicly stated that it's his right to sexually harass his employees because he owns the company - he's become a Notch-level G*****G*** crank who enjoys using his influence to harass and belittle those he disagrees with.

If for no other reason than I want to see Wardell fail, I hope Ford and Reiche are vindicated in court

tskirvin Smack-Fu Master, in training
REPLYFEB 22, 2018 4:00 PMNEW POSTER
Rene Gollent wrote:
tskirvin wrote:
I'll stand with the guys that gave me Fwiffo over Brad Wardell and his pro-#gamergate ways, thank you.


Careful, someone might hold a vegetable to your head.

Is it better to talk about how Brad Wardell doesn't want to make games that women might play?
 
Last edited:

Unkillable Cat

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Two little ships in the corner! Oh no!
Half of old FPSes had references to each other and other games. Duke, Blood, Shadow Warrior and so on.

And this, exactly this, is why we don't have so many pop culture references in games anymore.

In some ways it's OK because it shouldn't be about quantity, but due to legal wrangling most devs are too scared to even try to sneak in a good reference.
 

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for using Norman Bates' likeness.
You need wither an eye exam of a psychiatric assessment.
Badly.

It's not unusual for low-budget cover artists to crib from existing photos of celebrities, chip. Hell, if Cleve Blackmore is to be believed, it's not unusual for low-budget artists of never released cover art to crib from existing poses of gay porn models. Why do you think the lower part of his face on the Star Control II cover is obscured? Take a guess if you can't think of an answer. I saw actress-model Lily Cole in one artist's rendering of a cRPG portrait.
 
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Hmm... Very unfortunate. Seems like both parties are being disingenuous dicks while trying to maintain some semblance of a PR-friendly facade. Oh well. Let us make no more ideals of men.

I guess Activision and that Skylanders money has corrupted the souls of Ford and Reiche... Wardell... well, he's just coming off as bullish and a little autistic, can't throw too many stones about that on the 'dex.
 

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The press favoring the other side cements my gut feeling that Wardell is in fact in the right.
My opinion of the guy is growing.
 

LESS T_T

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They have update the Q&A:

Q: What about Paul and Fred's claims that you don't have the right to distribute the DOS games?

A: This is not the position that they presented to us when we asked shortly after acquiring Star Control from Atari. When we acquired the rights, we saw that the DOS games were being sold on GOG with Atari listed as the publisher. When we contacted Paul and Fred they asked what we acquired from Atari. We explicitly stated that we had the ability to sell, distribute, market and promote the original trilogy. Not only did they not contest these rights they asked how much it cost as part of a discussion to buy these rights from us. Excerpt from Exhibit E.

4ee3cffd-233f-4901-9e1d-be7757699ef1.png


Q: Why is this happening now? [UPDATE]

A: We don't know. The order of events is as follows:
  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games. The DOS games are already available on GOG with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock meets with Paul and Fred in person to discuss plans for a new Star Control. They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Control game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so. (2013)
  3. Stardock offers to transfer all rights to Star Control, including all trademarks and distribution rights, to Paul and Fred at cost in the hopes that Paul and Fred will develop a new Star Control game (even if it doesn't involve Stardock). The cost is $300,000. Paul and Fred decline. (2013)
  4. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  5. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  6. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots. Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  7. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  8. Stardock asks Paul and Fred if they would like to be involved in a 25th anniversary promotion of Star Control II to celebrate their accomplishments. They decline (Summer 2017)
  9. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe. (Fall 2017)
  10. Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion. Stardock asks, multiple times, to set up a phone call so that they can "brainstorm" a win-win solution. Paul and Fred decline. (Fall 2017)
  11. Paul and Fred, for the first time, claim to Stardock that the 1988 agreement expired "long ago". Stardock asks for any documentation, emails, or anything to back up that claim. Stardock states that it has no problem with Paul and Fred creating a new game provided that it is not associated with Star Control. (Fall 2017).
  12. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control. Websites follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  13. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary. (October)
  14. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO. This is the first time lawyers have been involved. Lawyers take over. (October)
  15. Paul and Fred's attorney files DMCA requests against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  16. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  17. Paul and Fred's attorney requests multiple time extensions to respond, use that time to secretly do press interviews, hire a PR firm. (2018)
  18. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (Feburary).
  19. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock's CEO, Brad Wardell, of copyright theft despite not being a party to the suit.
For over twenty years, fans have wanted a new Star Control game. We have spent the past four years working hard on a new one that we think the fans love. We still hope a win-win solution is found. We do not like seeing disputes being aired in public as it makes finding a solution just that much more difficult and splits the fan community.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged. BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.
 
Repressed Homosexual
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More and more I understand why Bethesda was right all along. Only talk to the press and the public in extremely controlled environments without making any unscripted comment or making any outburst.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.

:M

Paul and Fred, for the first time, claim to Stardock that the 1988 agreement expired "long ago". Stardock asks for any documentation, emails, or anything to back up that claim.

Well, did he end up getting any? There was some stuff in their counterclaim.
 

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