Top modern jrpgs?

[Arthandas]

That is called a western RPG with Japanese anime art inspirations. Does the game in the first image even have RPG elements? Could merely be a puzzle game for all I know, but apparently we define genres exclusively based on art styles now. And the second image barely even looks anime/typical Japanese.

Spoiler

 

[Sigourn]

Are you implying that Ashley is manly despite the chaps and not because of them?

True, true. Real men are completely confident in their heterosexuality and accept the superiority of cute traps.

 

[Theldaran]

Bravely Default...? Maybe the combat system will entertain you, that's definitely where all the beef is, but we're talking about a barren world you're forced to do over several times, considerable amounts of grinding, and meh story and characters.

Square Enix have been in shambles in latter times, hopefully with the big sales of FFXV they can do something non-yawn-inspiring again, a true flight of the Enix. They almost ruined the Final Fantasy franchise forever.

 

[Dzupakazul]

in the same way WRPG is RPGs made by western devs

So according to you, games like this or that are wrpgs? It's unethical to insult people who are actually mentally handicapped so you're getting a pass.

My favourite part about RPGCodex is definitely the parts of the site where people show up in threads about video games they don't like to say how much they suck shit over semantic differences, stylistic choices and BUT WHAT IS AN RPG diatribes. I wish we had those threads every day, and also a specific, intercultural Thursday to have the boards bond somewhat, where, for instance, I can go to the Might and Magic general at GRPGD and call dearly respected Skeptic a fucking mongoloid who still enjoys shit games about beating up spaceship defenses with swords and retarded gameplay about collecting keycards made by some basement dwelling fanboy who couldn't decide if he wants Star Trek or D&D. That's definitely what I registered to the Codex for - not to deepen my horizons about video games I haven't played yet and enjoy perspectives I've not managed to explore, but to harvest brofists from contrarians while jerking myself off about my superior video game taste and timeless maturity.

 

[Sigourn]

Calling a specific subgenre of Japanese RPG "Japanese RPGs" is fucking pants-on-head retarded and not what anyone with any authority and intellect would ever do.

I agree with Arthandas. Honestly, "JRPG" as a genre is as nebulous as "RPG" is as a genre. We simply "feel" it to be a JRPG or not. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, EarthBound, Secret of Mana. All "JRPGs". Dark Souls, Vagrant Story, Shin Megami Tensei... sorry, they feel nothing like these games, from the way they play, or the stories, the tone, the aesthetic, and I could go on.

"Western RPGs" is meaningless. It's like saying: "there are RPGs, and then there are non-RPGs. BUT HOW COULD THOSE NON-RPGS BE THE SAME GENRE WHEN YOU HAVE SO VARIED GAMES?". The answer is: there isn't a "non-RPG" genre. "Western RPGs" says nothing about the game. It only describes basically every type of RPG that isn't a JRPG. You have Wizardry, Ultima, Gold Box series, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, Gothic, Morrowind, Mass Effect, Fallout 4. Fallout 4 is absolutely nothing like Wizardry. "Western RPG" means shit. The only thing in common these games have is that they don't have an anime aesthetic, and we can stop counting.

"JRPG" is a thing. "Western RPG" isn't, and that's what a lot of dumbfucks don't get. Dungeon crawler, roguelike, action-RPG, JRPG, they are all sub-genres of RPGs. The difference is that JRPG is a type of RPG popularized in Japan and almost exclusively through its (Japanese) console releases, hence the "J". Like I said, don't expect me to define JRPGs, it's something you "feel" or not. Just like how a lot of people feel Deus Ex is an RPG and to others it is just a shooter with tacked on RPG elements.

To deny there is truth to the "JRPG" moniker is to deny the millions of people who constantly say "I prefer JRPGs to other RPGs". I don't think they prefer these just because they are animu.

EDIT: Ash When one uses "JRPG" to describe a style of game it doesn't matter where the hell does the game come from. If you follow JRPG conventions, you or I, both westerners, can easily make a JRPG.

JRPGs are heavily influenced by Japanese culture. It's impossible to deny this: nowhere in "western RPGs" do you see such a massive popularity of kiddie or teenage protagonists, one of many things extremely common in JRPGs.

 

[Reinhardt]

in the same way WRPG is RPGs made by western devs

So according to you, games like this or that are wrpgs? It's unethical to insult people who are actually mentally handicapped so you're getting a pass.

Do you understand that first game don't even have anime art? Or any cartoons are anime for you?

 

[Dzupakazul]

We simply "feel" it to be a JRPG or not. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI

Shin Megami Tensei... [feels] nothing like these games

I don't see how there's absolutely nothing similar or familiar between Dragon Quest 8:

Spoiler

and Shin Megami Tensei 4

Spoiler

In fact, I should posit that Final Fantasy 4 is basically a combat-heavy western-inspired (Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest came high off the heels of Ultima/Wizardry, after all) blobber and not a jRPG because of its emphasis on challenging dungeon crawling and the fact that all the characters move in a, well, blob. It even has characters that wouldn't be out of place in a Wizardry or Might & Magic menagerie of enemies. So I think that Final Fantasy is not a jRPG, mostly because jRPG is apparently a bad word and I like Final Fantasy.

 

[Alkarl]

I don't think we're about to change hearts and minds here, friends. As someone who is often attempting to expose themselves to as many different "things" as I'm willing and able, there is always someone in some circle that hates things about another.

Having labels like "jrpg" and "western rpg" or "crpg" are important for people to help define their interests. It's like when you were 7, asking your grandma to get you a present, or some better analogy, and you ask her for an rpg. You could end up with ToEE or Pokemon. Not that I expect your grandma to understand the differences, but hopefully you get my point?

Most genres, though, are like blobs. Really THICC in the center but then kinda weak and watery towards the edges. For instance, with jrpgs, you've got really weeab and otaku shit in the middle, but then towards the edges you've got shit like Dark Souls that looks like it could totally have been developed by a western studio.

 

[Theldaran]

It's like when you were 7, asking your grandma to get you a present, or some better analogy, and you ask her for an rpg. You could end up with ToEE or Pokemon.

More likely, it was the videogame store boy's choice. That's why having a bigger brother who could choose for you was handy.

 

[Sigourn]

I should have stated beforehand that by SMT I meant 1, 2 and Nocturne. Don't know anything about the rest.

In fact, I should posit that Final Fantasy 4 is basically a combat-heavy western-inspired (Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest came high off the heels of Ultima/Wizardry, after all) blobber and not a jRPG because of its emphasis on challenging dungeon crawling and the fact that all the characters move in a, well, blob. It even has characters that wouldn't be out of place in a Wizardry or Might & Magic menagerie of enemies. So I think that Final Fantasy is not a jRPG, mostly because jRPG is apparently a bad word and I like Final Fantasy.

If you want me to go there, fine: Final Fantasy is not a JRPG. It was pretty much Ultima and a cross of (very very easy) Wizardry because of the multiple party members. Nothing JRPG about that. However, JRPGs took the Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy basic formula, and filled it up its ass with Japanese tropes. IIRC Dragon Quest already has a kiddie protagonist.

But wait, what is this???

The American cover. Because evidently a lot of people thought the original was too childish and cutesy: ring the alarms for "JRPG". Note that the artstyle didn't just switch to "realistic", it also portrays the hero of an entirely different age. Japanese cover is pretty much kid Gohan (DBZ), whereas the American cover could be anyone from ages 20 and above.

Just like how they tend to draw characters and portray them of a certain age, sooner or later JRPGs were to become infested by the countless of JRPG tropes, all because of a culture that looks back very fondly on their childhood years, before they had to work 12 hours a day, with their 8 hours of sleep devoted to dreaming on their childhood.

I'm betting the Middle Eastern countries could make for some very interesting RPGs. Could probably spark their own subgenre.

 

[Ash]

I agree with Ash. Honestly, "JRPG" as a genre is as nebulous as "RPG" is as a genre. We simply "feel" it to be a JRPG or not. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, EarthBound, Secret of Mana. All "JRPGs". Dark Souls, Vagrant Story, Shin Megami Tensei... sorry, they feel nothing like these games, from the way they play, or the stories, the tone, the aesthetic, and I could go on.

Here's how this JRPG naming convention retardation came to be:

nearly all JRPGs back in the late 80s early 90s were cutesy turn-based. they were simply referred to as Japanese RPGs (JRPGs) because, well, that's literally what they were and it was convenient to distinguish them from western RPGs this way. Since then, Japanese RPGs branched out big time, we got RTw/P JRPGs (Vagrant Story, FF12), Action Survival Horror JRPGs (Parasite Eve 2), SRPGs (Final Fantasy Tactics), Platformer RPGs (Castlevania: SOTN), first person RPGs (Kings field) and more. this was not recognised by JRPG haters who only knew the cutesy old ways, and continued to refer to JRPGs as the simple cutesy turn-based SNES/NES games they knew. And so a divide was created and these people were stubborn, clinging on to their old fashioned understanding of what a japanese RPG was.

It'd be like someone only playing Ultima and Wizardry years ago and never touching another, calling those cRPG/western RPG, and then when people point out stuff like Morrowind, Infinity Engine games, Deus Ex etc are also Western/CRPG, then retorting with "No! Those are WESTERN/COMPUTER RPGS, not WRPGs/cRPGs!" or something equally retarded like that because they can't comprehend that western RPGs branched out to other styles, from first person to RTwP to whatever. Or because they hated the old cRPGs, but really like the new ones of a different style, and can't bear to lump them in the same category even though by fricken definition they are of the same category.

 

[Sigourn]

Did I say "I agree with Ash "? Sorry, meant to say "I agree with Arthandas ".

Here's how this JRPG naming convention retardation came to be:

nearly all JRPGs back in the late 80s early 90s were cutesy turn-based. they were simply referred to as Japanese RPGs (JRPGs) because, well, that's literally what they were and it was convenient to distinguish them from western RPGs this way. Since then, Japanese RPGs branched out big time, we got RTw/P JRPGs (Vagrant Story, FF12), Action Survival Horror JRPGs (Parasite Eve 2), SRPGs (Final Fantasy Tactics), Platformer RPGs (Castlevania: SOTN), first person RPGs (Kings field) and more. this was not recognised by JRPG haters who only knew the cutesy old ways, and continued to refer to JRPGs as the simple cutesy turn-based SNES/NES games they knew. And so a divide was created and these people were stubborn, clinging on to their old fashioned understanding of what a japanese RPG was.

It'd be like someone only playing Ultima and Wizardry years ago and never touching another, calling those cRPG/western RPG, and then when people point out stuff like Morrowind, Infinity Engine games, Deus Ex etc are also Western/CRPG, then retorting with "No! Those are WESTERN/COMPUTER RPGS, not WRPGs/cRPGs!" or something equally retarded like that.

Again, I consider "JRPG" to be a style and not a specific type of gameplay. Turn-based, action, I don't mind. It's the Japanese influence that makes an PRG a "JRPG" in my opinion. Undertale is heavily inspired by the Mother series, it can't be anything but a JRPG, even in spite of its non conventional gameplay. The Japanese spirit is there, it's a mix of culture and the games made by other Japanese developers.

It's that same spirit that no one other country prints into their games. You don't recognize a Polish "spirit" in The Witcher. It's just a game with a certain setting based on the books of a Polish author, but there's no Polish spirit in it when it comes to how it treats the setting and the characters. There's no American spirit in Wizardry and the other countless of RPGs made in America. But there's definitely a Japanese spirit in JRPGs. Dark Souls, Vagrant Story, Nocturne? I just don't see it, even spite of the latter being clearly set in Japan (this is my opinion of course; one could easily argue the protagonists are teenagers but in this particular game it doesn't really change anything).

I don't think it is a coincidence that people constantly suck on Japan's dick when it comes to their culture. It really is very foreign to us westerners, far above the slavs' tendency to squat.

In an Argentinian RPG, who knows: maybe you would find an overabundance of Simpsons references. That, I'd say, is the more recognizable aspect of our every day culture.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think I'm going to do this from now on. Only first person dungeon crawler games are wrpgs. Fallout doesn't have the spirit of a western game at all, it's basically a jrpg.

 

[Dzupakazul]

If you want me to go there, fine: Final Fantasy is not a JRPG.

Then one of the most defining games of the genre isn't a jRPG, which means this entire discussion is completely meaningless. If one has an allergy to the Japanese art-style, they can feel free to do so without shitting up these threads.

It was pretty much Ultima and a cross of (very very easy) Wizardry because of the multiple party members. Nothing JRPG about that.

...most jRPGs feature blobber combat, dungeon crawling, heavy emphasis on combat, featuring puzzles with secret passages and the like.

(very very easy)

Come on. Final Fantasy 1 had the Marsh Cave that was the first major difficulty spike and constantly harassed you with poisonous enemies that would whittle you down without severe preparation. Final Fantasy 1 featured a random encounter of SORCERERS that would often be a guaranteed wipe of your entire party. Final Fantasy 2 and 3 are considered legitimately difficult games. Final Fantasy 4 is well-known for its emphasis on resource management where you could progress through the game without grinding *if* you used your resources smartly and often featured a lot of tension where you were on your last legs, harassed by difficult enemies that are hard to run away from, and a save point that just didn't seem to ever pop up. Final Fantasy also generally has systems that are fun to play around with and which are fun to break, as FF5's Four Job Fiesta tradition keeps on giving.

However, JRPGs took the Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy basic formula, and filled it up its ass with Japanese tropes.

You mean like which ones? Chosen One heroes? Having to gather four crystals of immense powers? Enemies taken wholesale from Japanese folklore? Y'know, stuff that Final Fantasy made its brand on? What are those "Japanese" tropes?

IIRC Dragon Quest already has a kiddie protagonist.
[snip]
[snip]
The American cover. Because evidently a lot of people thought the original was too childish and cutesy: ring the alarms for "JRPG". Note that the artstyle didn't just switch to "realistic", it also portrays the hero of an entirely different age. Japanese cover is pretty much kid Gohan (DBZ), whereas the American cover could be anyone from ages 20 and above.

Erdrick is a 16 year old, which is a very plausible age for a young conscript or hero in any mythology. The American cover makes everything look "more hardcore", but the hero's pose (being shot from behind in a suit of armor) doesn't necessarily confer anything about their age, they could be anything from age 15 to 105. The Japanese cover looks like this because of Toriyama's distinctive style. With the armor and the "clenched teeth" pose, Erdrick might very well be reminiscent of teen Goku, especially given the fact that Toriyama has a severe case of sameface:

 

[Sigourn]

I think I'm going to do this from now on. Only first person dungeon crawler games are wrpgs. Fallout doesn't have the spirit of a western game at all, it's basically a jrpg.

Ugh. Vagrant Story. Not a game I enjoyed much. I can see the appeal - it has great atmosphere and a very cool story. But I disliked most everything else about it. The exploration was pretty open, but I pretty much never found anything worthwhile. Everything is just some minor variation of what types of enemies the weapon or armour is most effective against. You could easily play through the whole game stripped naked because of the combat system, which renders you invincible if you time attacks and defenses.

Go fuck yourself Undertale J-tard.

 

[Sigourn]

Then one of the most defining games of the genre isn't a jRPG

It isn't, though. Being one of the games that inspired the JRPG genre doesn't make it "a defining game of the genre".

Else we may as well call Wizardry and Ultimate JRPGs. Those two single-handedly inspired Dragon Quest, which going by your definition is "one of the most defining games of the genre".

...most jRPGs feature blobber combat, dungeon crawling, heavy emphasis on combat, featuring puzzles with secret passages and the like.

Not in the way of Wizardry they don't. And "heavy emphasis on combat" means nothing, considering dungeon crawling and combat in Wizardry WAS the point of Wizardry, as hopefully aweigh will certify. Your average JRPG is an awful dungeon crawler and an awful combat game. The only Japanese made RPGs like Wizardry are precisely not JRPGs, but "Wizardry-clones".

Come on. Final Fantasy 1 had the Marsh Cave that was the first major difficulty spike and constantly harassed you with poisonous enemies that would whittle you down without severe preparation. Final Fantasy 1 featured a random encounter of SORCERERS that would often be a guaranteed wipe of your entire party. Final Fantasy 2 and 3 are considered legitimately difficult games. Final Fantasy 4 is well-known for its emphasis on resource management where you could progress through the game without grinding *if* you used your resources smartly and often featured a lot of tension where you were on your last legs, harassed by difficult enemies that are hard to run away from, and a save point that just didn't seem to ever pop up. Final Fantasy also generally has systems that are fun to play around with and which are fun to break, as FF5's Four Job Fiesta tradition keeps on giving.

Are you really going to mention the oldest games in Japan which were well known for their emphasis on forced grinding and beef gates as an example of "difficulty"? In those games you just need to grind. In Wizardry, even grinding requires a semblance of thought and preparation. There's nothing difficult about those older "JRPGs", only tedium.

You mean like which ones? Chosen One heroes? Having to gather four crystals of immense powers? Enemies taken wholesale from Japanese folklore? Y'know, stuff that Final Fantasy made its brand on? What are those "Japanese" tropes?

Here you go.

Erdrick is a 16 year old, which is a very plausible age for a young conscript or hero in any mythology.

Yeah, a shame the cover depics him as a little kid. For reference, another 16-year old, drawn by Toriyama.

The Japanese cover looks like this because of Toriyama's distinctive style.

Toriyama's style doesn't consists of drawing everyone like kids. Vegeta, Goku, etc. The person being a kid was a conscious decision. Toriyama also knows how to draw things seriously if asked to.

Far more intimidating than "friendly looking dragon who is angry".

Again, all ties in with the JRPG trend of making things look cutesy and childish. Even when the artist himself can draw anime looking people who more closely resemble the ages they are supposed to be. I'm not even asking Gohan to be buffed as fuck, only that he has the stature of a 16-year old and not a kindergardener.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Go fuck yourself Undertale J-tard.

Undertale is obviously a wRPG. It was made by a Westerner and has choice & consequence.

 

[Dzupakazul]

It isn't, though. Being one of the games that inspired the JRPG genre doesn't make it "a defining game of the genre".

I propose that you go ahead and make a Final Fantasy general in General RPG Discussions.

Else we may as well call Wizardry and Ultimate JRPGs. Those two single-handedly inspired Dragon Quest, which going by your definition is "one of the most defining games of the genre".

Great, in which case, doubly so, we might finally be rid of The Typical jRPG Thread on the Codex, which is:
"Hey guys, what are some good games in this genre"
"[this, this and that]"
"UNINSTALL.EXE R00FLE5 I DON'T ACTUALLY ENJOY PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AM I COOL YET DO I FIT IN"

...most jRPGs feature blobber combat, dungeon crawling, heavy emphasis on combat, featuring puzzles with secret passages and the like.

Not in the way of Wizardry they don't. And "heavy emphasis on combat" means nothing, considering dungeon crawling and combat in Wizardry WAS the point of Wizardry, as hopefully aweigh will certify. Your average JRPG is an awful dungeon crawler and an awful combat game. The only Japanese made RPGs like Wizardry are precisely not JRPGs, but "Wizardry-clones".

This is a back and forth that goes nowhere and is entirely subjective and still doesn't give anyone a licence to show up here and shitpost.

Are you really going to mention the oldest games in Japan which were well known for their emphasis on forced grinding and beef gates as an example of "difficulty"? In those games you just need to grind. In Wizardry, even grinding requires a semblance of thought and preparation. There's nothing difficult about those older "JRPGs", only tedium.

I am 100% positive that at least Final Fantasy 1, 4 and 5 can be beaten without any grind. Zero. Zip. Nada. I can even post a link to a Final Fantasy 1 playthrough which is not only grindless, but also specifically suffers not a single party wipe over the course of the entire journey.

These games have less inherent grinding necessary than Might & Magic 1&2, the latter particularly when you don't start with an imported save from MM1. Does that make them inherently better? Does it even matter?

Here you go.

Clearly, this means Fallout and Baldur's Gate are jRPGs.

Yeah, a shame the cover depics him as a little kid. For reference, another 16-year old, drawn by Toriyama.

I posted the example of Teen Goku, who, especially in more comic segments (particularly when he eats a lot) could very well make a similar expression. Hell, according to Toriyama's style, this "kid" on the cover could even have been Kuririn, who never grows in size.

 

[Sigourn]

I propose that you go ahead and make a Final Fantasy general in General RPG Discussions.

I propose that you go ahead and make a thread on a SJW forum explaining that shemales are men. See how long it takes before it is removed. Just because it is true doesn't mean everyone will accept it or agree wih it.

This is a back and forth that goes nowhere and is entirely subjective and still doesn't give anyone a licence to show up here

Sorry, but "JRPGs" don't play like Wizardry. Mentioning a handful of elements completely disregards how they actually work in the different games. "Dungeon crawling" in Wizardry isn't anywhere near the same as "dungeon crawling" in Baldur's Gate. Why the hell do you think JRPGs would be the same, especially when those games usually have simple as fuck dungeons with pathetic difficulty?

Usually Wizardry-clones understand dungeon crawling as Wizardry does. Even Nocturne, with pretty good combat and a balanced idea of difficulty, has simple dungeons.

I am 100% positive that at least Final Fantasy 1, 4 and 5 can be beaten without any grind. Zero. Zip. Nada. I can even post a link to a Final Fantasy 1 playthrough which is not only grindless, but also specifically suffers not a single party wipe over the course of the entire journey.

Good. I referred to Final Fantasy 1 only, but I guess they can be beaten without grinding supposedly you know absolutely have every trick mastered, which the average player won't. Call it "moving the goalposts" if you want, but I doubt the devs expected people to play like that. My point is that western RPGs usually rely on the player figuring things out (as grinding is either counter-productive or ridiculously tedious), whereas JRPGs usually rely on the player grinding as figuring things out could require a knowledge of the game that far surpasses the expectations the devs place on the players.

Clearly, this means Fallout and Baldur's Gate are jRPGs.

Clearly Call of Duty is an RPG. You are playing a role after all. I had hoped you knew better than to cherry pick specific tropes, but I suppose I expected too much from you.

I posted the example of Teen Goku, who, especially in more comic segments (particularly when he eats a lot) could very well make a similar expression. Hell, according to Toriyama's style, this "kid" on the cover could even have been Kuririn, who never grows in size.

Krillin doesn't look like kid Gohan, though. Even as time passed in the series, you can tell a clear difference in how Krillin is depicted, even when we don't take into account the hair growth.

(I can't think of many adult short characters in DBZ to make my point)

 

[Arthandas]

they were simply referred to as Japanese RPGs (JRPGs)

See, here's where you're wrong. Jrpg never meant Japanese rpg as in "any rpg made in Japan". It meant a peculiar STYLE of rpg just like "drpg".
Any wizardry clone no matter how much filled with hentai will always be drpg and not jrpg.
Games like Dark Souls, Nioh, Dungeon Lords, Dragon's Dogma, Witcher, Lightning Returns etc are all tpp action rpgs. Yes, some of them can carry the anime aesthetics or were made in Japan but none of them are "jrpgs".
Now the best part: both Anachronox and for example FF6 ARE jrpgs despite having different aesthetics. They share the same style of gameplay ergo they belong to the same rpg subgenre.

Now, if you want to burn me at the stake for saying the truth then I'll happily die a martyr.

 

[jungl]

if you like dungeon crawling but want a story attached to it could try evolution worlds. Yet another random jrpg I thought of better then trails in the sky. First evolution has superior story imo. Aweigh makes wizardry like games sound like these amazing jrpgs but he just a fanboy. Remember he wrote like 4 paragraphs on elminage gothic how having to upgrade your gear to handle the next dungeon makes it this revolutionary game lol.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Sorry, but "JRPGs" don't play like Wizardry. Mentioning a handful of elements completely disregards how they actually work in the different games. "Dungeon crawling" in Wizardry isn't anywhere near the same as "dungeon crawling" in Baldur's Gate. Why the hell do you think JRPGs would be the same, especially when those games usually have simple as fuck dungeons with pathetic difficulty?

You say pathetic difficulty, yet somehow the notion that you can beat them without grinding somehow completely didn't cross your mind. It's not my fault you choose to play those games by making them easy for yourself, then get bored in the process.

Good. I referred to Final Fantasy 1 only, but I guess they can be beaten without grinding supposedly you know absolutely have every trick mastered, which the average player won't. Call it "moving the goalposts" if you want, but I doubt the devs expected people to play like that. My point is that western RPGs usually rely on the player figuring things out (as grinding is either counter-productive or ridiculously tedious), whereas JRPGs usually rely on the player grinding as figuring things out could require a knowledge of the game that far surpasses the expectations the devs place on the players.

Please. Every single guide to Wizardry 8 says "get a bard for his ability to Sleep targets", for instance, something that comes as a tip given from players to players, not something that the game explicitly spells out as useful. Nobody in Fallout, on their own, would have figured out that Charisma does dogshit for actually talking to people, or that the most efficient build is a CH-dump orator-sniper with Lockpick. In fact, most of the time, no matter how experienced you are, your first character in an RPG will suck ass and you will have to learn the mechanics on your own as you go. Likewise, in T-Hawk's Final Fantasy playthrough, not a single one of the things he does counts as "intimate knowledge of everything that happens".

A player who organically wants to beat the Marsh Cave in Final Fantasy 1 would go there, note the extremely long trek with whittling random encounters such as Ogres, and then immediately decide to get the fuck out of there when they hit the first floor and immediately fall victim to constant poisonings in an endless war of attrition. Then, they'd get out, go back to Pravoka while on their last legs from the aforementioned encounters, bank all the gold they spent on the random encounters during travel on healing potions and antidotes, and try again. This approach can hardly be called "grinding" because you're not intentionally moving around one place trying to get gold. You don't ever have to grind if you understand how your items work. You are still very liable to get one-shot by traps, dead ends and bullshit encounters. None of this explicitly speaks out "grinding".

Basically the only thing you need to realize to come to the same conclusions as T-Hawk did is that "dungeon is far away as fuck and the route to the end is full of dangerous shit, I should probably stock up on sustain", which isn't some "secret video game trick" that only veterans have access to.

Just because you believe that "the developers didn't intend players to not grind" doesn't mean it's true. In any RPG in existence, "grinding" is simply a means to level the playing field for when your planning skills are lacking or the game is otherwise not designed to account for a player who understands how to use his resources to win. Pretty much any RPG is beatable with grinding. Some RPGs pretty much require you to grind early on, as even darlings of this forum like early MM games show. Final Fantasy does not require you to grind.

Clearly Call of Duty is an RPG. You are playing a role after all. I had hoped you knew better than to cherry pick specific tropes, but I suppose I expected too much from you.

You posted a list from fucking TVTropes thinking that somebody will just look at the number of tropes posted within and be like "Huh, that must be true", even though the list was made as an obvious joke by fans of the genre and not antifans who develop flu when they see weeaboo stuff, and which has many, MANY of the tropes overlap with any other production, Japanese or not. Might as well post something like "IGN's Top 10 Reasons For Why Fans Of Older RPGs Should Just Move On" and cite it as gospel.

Krillin doesn't look like kid Gohan, though.

If I had the time or resolve to look through countless chibified segments of either Dragon Ball series where the characters have their expressions comically contorted or otherwise chibified, I'm fairly certain I'd find something that looks like this supposed "8 year old" you speak of.

Besides, that's barely even a criticism. I don't see a reason for shitting on games because they "look like they're made for kids". I like the JP cover more simply because it's more imaginative and colourful. Hell, when I was a kid, everyone liked games like GTA "because" they looked edgy and adult, because kids generally try to act like they're totally grown up and beyond kiddie shit.

 

[Sigourn]

You say pathetic difficulty, yet somehow the notion that you can beat them without grinding somehow completely didn't cross your mind. It's not my fault you choose to play those games by making them easy for yourself, then get bored in the process.

Playing as the devs intended is "making the game easy for myself"... k. As we all know, GameFreak really intended the player to play a Nuzlocke run. Anything else was making the game too easy for yourself I suppose.

In fact, most of the time, no matter how experienced you are, your first character in an RPG will suck ass and you will have to learn the mechanics on your own as you go.

I hope you are not implying "western" RPGs and JRPGs are on even grounds when it comes to mastering the mechanics, because that's as retarded as an "opinion" can get.

Just because you believe that "the developers didn't intend players to not grind" doesn't mean it's true.

The opposite is also true. Now, when we consider that the majority of Final Fantasy players has talked about grinding, the opposite scenario is hard for me to buy into. Especially because Final Fantasy was one of the first console RPGs released in Japan, and the genre wasn't exactly decades old.

You posted a list from fucking TVTropes thinking that somebody will just look at the number of tropes posted within and be like "Huh, that must be true"

Don't blame me for being an idiot who doesn't know the difference between "things that usually happen in JRPGs" and "if a couple of them apply to an RPG, it's a JRPG!!!!". I'm guessing you also missed the point of my Call of Duty analogy.

If I had the time or resolve to look through countless chibified segments of either Dragon Ball series where the characters have their expressions comically contorted or otherwise chibified, I'm fairly certain I'd find something that looks like this supposed "8 year old" you speak of.

Save yourself the trouble: you don't know the difference between a character being a kid, and an adult character chibified. Chibi characters have their proportions fucked up and exaggerated. The kid in the cover doesn't: he is drawn exactly as kid Gohan and kid Goku.


Jesus fuck, who cares anymore. Even the JRPG fans agree that "JRPG" has nothing to do with country of origin but a style made popular by the Japs.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Playing as the devs intended

This isn't comparable to a Nuzlocke run. If a game lets you simply go between dungeons with little to no grinding and you don't have to do anything particularly special to do so (no "using every single trick in the book", as you asserted is necessary), then it stands to reason that the core design doesn't necessarily involve any fucking grinding. If you grind in these games, you're going to make the game easier for yourself. Like I said, most RPGs end up, in the end, beatable by anyone who has the persistence to grind them out. How much grinding you have to do to get to the point where the game is enjoyable for you is entirely up to you. You basically make your own difficulty slider. Final Fantasy is doable without grinding if you simply make smart decisions and it has been documented. Little metagaming is involved.

I hope you are not implying "western" RPGs and JRPGs are on even grounds when it comes to mastering the mechanics, because that's as retarded as an "opinion" can get.

You never made a compelling point that jRPG mechanics are poor or are not worth exploring. Even if nothing compares to the holy grail that is Wizardry, there's still a wealth of good games to enjoy. I'd still hazard a guess that progressing through Final Fantasy 4 is more difficult than Fallout 1 or 2. Your argument basically rests on the idea that "jRPGs are games that I don't like. If a Japanese made game is fun, it's not a jRPG".

The opposite is also true. Now, when we consider that the majority of Final Fantasy players has talked about grinding

The majority of Oblivion players thought it was a groundbreaking masterpiece. Just because a guy who was a 10 year old kid couldn't beat the game without sitting in a forest for 3 hours doesn't mean the game is bad or grindy. When I was 12, I ground raiders in a cave in Fallout 2 because I wanted a cool weapon. Does that mean Fallout 2 is badly designed or grindy?

Don't blame me for being an idiot who doesn't know the difference between "things that usually happen in JRPGs" and "if a couple of them apply to an RPG, it's a JRPG!!!!". I'm guessing you also missed the point of my Call of Duty analogy.

The entire point is that those things are *characteristic* of jRPGs, but they barely say anything about the *quality* of the games themselves other than "those are retarded things that cause jRPGs to be retarded because I said so". That, and many of those characteristics aren't even exclusive to jRPGs and are absolutely commonplace in other games. The list is a joke and meant to be taken as a joke.

Save yourself the trouble: you don't know the difference between a character being a kid, and an adult character chibified. Chibi characters have their proportions fucked up and exaggerated. The kid in the cover doesn't: he is drawn exactly as kid Gohan and kid Goku.

I still insist that the character is young, but ambiguous because of the specific angle used or the fact that you don't get to accurately see his height or guess at his proportions. He might very well be a teenager. I can imagine that Toriyama was given such instructions when drawing the character.

Jesus fuck, who cares anymore. Even the JRPG fans agree that "JRPG" has nothing to do with country of origin but a style made popular by the Japs.

Yes, the problem begins when you get to dictate what a "JRPG" is solely on the basis of what you don't like.

 

[Cross]

It definitely doesn't feel like one.

On another note: I began playing Valkyrie Profile. Does this shit actually get good? So far it's been pretty much dialogue after dialogue with poor voice acting and nothing of interest.

>Complains that Valkyrie Profile is slow so start.

>Praises Vagrant Story, a game that starts with a cutscene that takes half an hour.



Not only is Vagrant Story definitely a JRPG, but it has all the tropes you seem to dislike about the genre, so one wonders what exactly it is you loved so much about it.