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Eternity Eora Theology Discussion: Is Skaen an analogue to Early Christianity?

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Yet his church is also a library. You are arguing semantics at this point "oh, no, he doesn't reveal things, he helps you do that", which basically means he is interested in revealing in one way or another. The god of being a librarian doesn't roll off the tongue too well, so revelations is a fine word. Whether Eothas reveals anything will be seen in August, I guess.
 

Sizzle

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Yes, Mr "Skaen isn't advocating violence, merely violent rebellion, what makes you think that means he wants to kill people?", I'm clearly the one arguing semantics here :D
 

fantadomat

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Wael is the god of exploration and study really,he makes mysteries so people could be inspired by them and push the boundaries in search of them. He is my favourite god in PoE. A world without mysteries a place of despair and emptiness.

Eothas is the only one that is not well depicted in the game,i have no real idea how to describe him.Was he the one who tried to make the people atheists and reliant on themself and not on the gods?
 

fantadomat

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Yet his church is also a library. You are arguing semantics at this point "oh, no, he doesn't reveal things, he helps you do that", which basically means he is interested in revealing in one way or another. The god of being a librarian doesn't roll off the tongue too well, so revelations is a fine word. Whether Eothas reveals anything will be seen in August, I guess.
One of them reveals actual things like the sceptre of everlasting dildo,the other,Eothas reveals more of things of the human nature and the inner soul. One is for exploring the world and its mysteries and the other is for exploring ones soul and finding the meaning of life.

Now i must depart to get ready for the Arkona concert ;). Have fun debating the divine!
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Lacrymas before launch: tell me everything about the plot.
Lacrymas after launch: writing sucks, plot was so predictable.
 

Lacrymas

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Yes, Mr "Skaen isn't advocating violence, merely violent rebellion, what makes you think that means he wants to kill people?", I'm clearly the one arguing semantics here :D

It's not the same, though. It's obvious that many people will interpret Skaen's dogma as "kill everyone you don't like", which is why they ramp up the creepiness and the portrayal of his cult is like from a bad horror movie. You are arguing that in "violent rebellion" the emphasis is on violence, while the logic is the other way around, the emphasis is on rebellion, as described in his scripture. But having the potential for different interpretations is good, it's only bad if Obs exclusively portray Skaen's faithful as C-grade horror movie villains.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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It's an ideology where the weak overcome their lot by the only means they have, Skaen is on the side of the beaten, humiliated and the oppressed, strengthening them and pulling them up. It's a very Christian worldview and very interesting.
Disagree,it is a god of misery and people that want to be miserable and want to bring misery to the rest. If i was oppressed in PoE i would have followed Magran and bring a fiery hammer to the head of the asshole that oppress me. She is more goddess of the downtrodden in a way,improvement trough suffering and struggle. Skaen is about eternal suffering and pettiness. They even kidnapped the girl just to stick it to the noble that didn't do anything to them. It is a god of cowardly cunts,if they were Magran worshippers they would have bashed the lord's head and be done with it.

Jesus Christ, Lacrymas is 100% right about the very strong parallels between the Skaenite cult and early Christianity and you bitches be wrong. Or at least, the Skaenites are torn directly from the pages of the Genealogy of Morals, so let’s say Nietzche’s depiction of the judeo-christian tradition.

Who says the god of eternal torment in the afterlife isn’t also supremely cruel and petty? At least Old Testament Yahweh left you alone once you died.

Christianity was the greatest slave revolt in history; Paul of Tarsus was just more cunning than the Skaenites in Pillars. It was a magnificent accomplishment really. It would be fun if they focused more on resistance against illegitimate secular authority, but they probably feel the need for some campy villains.

I took Wael to be modeled partly on ancient mystery cults and partly on lazy fantasy writing—“we need a god of knowledge!”
 

Sizzle

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Yes, Mr "Skaen isn't advocating violence, merely violent rebellion, what makes you think that means he wants to kill people?", I'm clearly the one arguing semantics here :D

It's not the same, though. It's obvious that many people will interpret Skaen's dogma as "kill everyone you don't like", which is why they ramp up the creepiness and the portrayal of his cult is like from a bad horror movie. You are arguing that in "violent rebellion" the emphasis is on violence, while the logic is the other way around, the emphasis is on rebellion, as described in his scripture. But having the potential for different interpretations is good, it's only bad if Obs exclusively portray Skaen's faithful as C-grade horror movie villains.

The emphasis is on both - this isn't a "cast off your shackles, run, be free!" ideology, but rather a "Bide your time, so you can make your oppressors suffer as they have made you suffer!" one.

I took Wael to be modeled partly on ancient mystery cults and partly on lazy fantasy writing—“we need a god of knowledge!”

To me, he looks like a typical trickster god of old - those often possess hidden knowledge that's unobtainable and unknowable to other gods and their worshipers.
 

Delterius

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There's a quest in PoE where a cult of skaen's impregnated a rape victim with the soul of vengeance in order to cause a slasher movie to happen.

If that's not a 'bad horror movie', I don't know what is.
 

FreeKaner

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Moreover, early pantheons are about ritual and duty, especially of expressing that in worship and praise. While Abrahamic religions are about morality and reward, in this sense, Skaen is more alike to Christianity than to Pantheons.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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In Nietzsche's master-slave morality, slaves are distinctively passive, it's true that they are empowered by their oppression but they do this in suffering not rebellion.

The whole moral inversion IS the rebellion. It’s not that they suffer, it’s that their suffering becomes proof of moral superiority, while the beauty and excellence of the best people becomes evidence of their wickedness. Who needs to kill the rich in their sleep when you can just poison the minds of their children?
 

Maculo

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The action being the Saint's War, in which the god of "benevolence" chooses an avatar and starts a bloody sectarian conflict.

He is the only god we do not have clear motivations spelled out for us.

And starting a war is clear evidence of revelation being in his portfolio?


Yes, the Hall of Revealed Mysteries, which is ironic on purpose, because he never reveals any.

Why do you think it's an ironic name? Having a hunch really isn't enough when all evidence points to Wael being a god of revelation as well. He might not reveal anything personally, but as mentioned, Hiravias says he guides you on the path to revealing by yourself.
The point being I disagree that Eothas is a one dimensional “good” god. We know the least about him, or why he started the saints war.

Beyond benevolence there also is an aspect of revelation to his religion, which may relate to the reason behind the saints war.
 
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FreeKaner

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In Nietzsche's master-slave morality, slaves are distinctively passive, it's true that they are empowered by their oppression but they do this in suffering not rebellion.

The whole moral inversion IS the rebellion. It’s not that they suffer, it’s that their suffering becomes proof of moral superiority, while the beauty and excellence of the best people becomes evidence of their wickedness. Who needs to kill the rich in their sleep when you can just poison the minds of their children?

I would say Nietzsche argues that the slave morality puts the virtue in the suffering, while confiding wickedness in those who inflict it. I do not necessarily disagree there is a Nietzschean consideration in Skaen (maybe unintended) but I would say it's less in master-slave morality but more about one taking their destiny with their will to that power, with power coming through hatred and revenge.
 
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Delterius

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We know the least about him, or why he started the saints war.
I can answer that.

The Gods are a bunch of Dominions players. Eora is their homebrew setting.

Three of the Gods have patronized one or another nation -- the Cunt labors for Dyrwood, the Bitch sanctions Aedir and the Blackthorne leads Readceras. These are the claimants of the vacant throne. The lesser gods declare their allegiance for one or the other pretender. Wael is the troll who keeps the game going forever.
 
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In one of your conversations with Durance after the scales fall from his eyes, he speculates, credibly, that Eothas started the war in order to prevent Woedica’s plan (i.e. the whole hallowborn soul sucky-sucky situation) before it got going.
 
Self-Ejected

CptMace

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Interestingly, Eothas knew a fate similar to what's said about Woedica. Got burnt, laid low for a while. I hope we'll hear about more epic tales like this in the sequel. The feud between Ondra and Abydon was pretty cool as well, with a badass delivery in The White March.
 

Sizzle

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It could be that Eothas has some "Lathander in the Dawn Cataclysm"-esque plans. That might explain both his actions in the Saint's War, and his resurrection in PoE2.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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I would say Nietzsche argues that the slave morality puts the virtue in the suffering, while confiding wickedness in those who inflict it. I do not necessarily disagree there is a Nietzschean consideration in Skaen (maybe unintended) but I would say it's less in master-slave morality but more about one taking their destiny with their will to that power, with power coming through hatred and revenge.

It seems pretty intentional to me, but not necessarily well-conceived: like someone read the Sparknotes version of his mid to later stuff, blended it together, then threw in some horror movie tropes and came up with Skaen.

I’m probably thinking of The Antichrist where he explains the early Christian moral inversion as an expression of will to power; where he talks about Paul hijacking the religion as a kind of spiritual conspiracy to throw down the beatiful and the good. In other words, I don’t think our two interpretations necessarily conflict.

Sidenote: H.L. Mencken’s introduction to The Antichrist in the ‘20s is incredibly entertaining.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/19322/19322-h/19322-h.htm

A sample:
“Well, an idea is an idea. The present one may be right and it may be wrong. One thing is quite certain: that no progress will be made against it by denouncing it as merely immoral. If it is ever laid at all, it must be laid evidentially, logically. The notion to the contrary is thoroughly democratic; the mob is the most ruthless of tyrants; it is always in a democratic society that heresy and felony tend to be most constantly confused. One hears without surprise of a Bismarck philosophizing placidly (at least in his old age) upon the delusion of Socialism and of a Frederick the Great playing the hose of his cynicism upon the absolutism that was almost identical with his own person, but men in the mass never brook the destructive discussion of their fundamental beliefs, and that impatience is naturally most evident in those societies in which men in the mass are most influential. Democracy and free speech are not facets of one gem; democracy and free speech are eternal enemies. But in any battle between an institution and an idea, the idea, in the long run, has the better of it. Here I do not venture into the absurdity of arguing that, as the world wags on, the truth always survives. I believe nothing of the sort. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that an idea that happens to be true—or, more exactly, as near to truth as any human idea can be, and yet remain generally intelligible—it seems to me that such an idea carries a special and often fatal handi cap. The majority of men prefer delusion to truth. It soothes. It is easy to grasp. Above all, it fits more snugly than the truth into a universe of false appearances—of complex and irrational phenomena, defectively grasped. But though an idea that is true is thus not likely to prevail, an idea that is attacked enjoys a great advantage. The evidence behind it is now supported by sympathy, the sporting instinct, sentimentality—and sentimentality is as powerful as an army with banners. One never hears of a martyr in history whose notions are seriously disputed today. The forgotten ideas are those of the men who put them forward soberly and quietly, hoping fatuously that they would conquer by the force of their truth; these are the ideas that we now struggle to rediscover. Had Nietzsche lived to be burned at the stake by outraged Mississippi Methodists, it would have been a glorious day for his doctrines. As it is, they are helped on their way every time they are denounced as immoral and against God. The war brought down upon them the maledictions of vast herds of right-thinking men. And now “The Antichrist,” after fifteen years of neglect, is being reprinted....”


Who needs to kill the rich
Wouldn't that prove Skaen is actually the inverse of Christianity?

It proves that Skaen is less cunning than Paul of Tarsus and more hamfisted. On a spiritual level, I don’t think there’s much difference between offering your enemies as human sacrifice and condemning them to an eternity in hell. Plenty of violence and cruelty to go around.

The thing about Nietzsche’s interpretation of Christianity is that he assumes the religion became fundamentally anti-Jesus some time in the third century, more about the misanthropic teachings of Paul than the the lovey-dovey teachings of Christ. If you just go by the sermon on the mount then, sure, the parallel with Skaen seems ridiculous. But for three hundred years this was the religion of slaves and people so poor they might have been better off as slaves. The whole sales pitch was about throwing off your chains (even if you might need to die first). We sort of see something similar in modern day liberation theology. Skaen’s just more proactive.

But maybe I should stop pushing this thread further off topic.
 

santino27

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
You are right to point out that both Christianity and the Skaenite faith potentially stem from the same Nietzschean ressentiment. But that's where the similarities end.

Was waiting for this. Am not disappointed. :)
 

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