Decline What killed off oldschool RPGs?

[Infinitron]

? Is this thread from 2011? This is what happens when you spend years in Prosperland I guess.

There were never that many non-indie "Infinity Engine-style RPGs". I'd say there are at least equal numbers of them now and in 2000.

Apparently Obsidian doesn’t exist.

I think he doesn't actually mean just IE games (RTwP, fantasy, etc) but all RPGs with a similar isometric visual look? The thread title says "oldschool RPGs".

But even if you restrict yourself to strictly IE-style it's not that much less - PoE1, PoE2, Tyranny, Pathfinder: Kingmaker. There were 5 Infinity Engine games.

 

[Mustawd]

But even if you restrict yourself to strictly IE-style it's not that much less - PoE1, PoE2, Tyranny, Pathfinder: Kingmaker. There were 5 Infinity Engine games.

Don't forget SCL either. Say what you want, but it was an isometric RTwP D&D title.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

? Is this thread from 2011? This is what happens when you spend years in Prosperland I guess.

There were never that many non-indie "Infinity Engine-style RPGs". I'd say there are at least equal numbers of them now and in 2000.

Apparently Obsidian doesn’t exist.

I think he doesn't actually mean just IE games (RTwP, fantasy, etc) but all RPGs with a similar isometric visual look? The thread title says "oldschool RPGs".

But even if you restrict yourself to strictly IE-style it's not that much less - PoE1, PoE2, Tyranny, Pathfinder: Kingmaker. There were 5 Infinity Engine games.

Let’s be fair and throw in the fallouts, arcanum and ToEE, cavalier oblique though they may be. I guess he means universally beloved isometric games? Which ain’t going to happen until someone invents nostalgia goggles.

 

[Mustawd]

Let’s be fair and throw in the fallouts, arcanum and ToEE, cavalier oblique though they may be. I guess he means universally beloved isometric games? Which ain’t going to happen until someone invents nostalgia goggles.

Then you have wasteland 2 and 3 coming up. As well as 3 Shadowrun games. Plus Banner sage 1-3, as well as some of the clones. There are a couple, but I can only recall Ash of Gods right now.

EDIT: Plus AoD and Underrail, with The New World, VD's Inquisition game, and Underrail Expansion coming up.

EDIT: I guess you can throw in that rpg wanna be/talking Sim, No Truce with the Furries game.

 

[Trashos]

The leaders (commercially speaking) of the genre found a bigger market by making BS, so that's where the industry headed.

 

[Falksi]

Coz of the fucking tards who hail the likes of The Witcher 3 as "how to do an RPG", when in reality it's overall dialogue is linear as fuck, and the majority of your time is spent running across boring, barren land & stumbling over "rare" items like Big Macs in McDonalds.

 

[Brancaleone]

How much of the typical oldschool rpg was about instant gratification, and how much about delayed gratification? I'd say that's roughly the core issue.

 

[Cross]

There are plenty of indie games thriving in their niche markets, but as far as the Infinity Engine-style RPGs are concerned - their time has largely come to an end. There's still the occasional pillow of infinity or an original sin here and there, but for the most part the genre has joined RTS games in the graveyard of genres.

Old-school RPGs were killed off in the second-half of the 1990s. They were replaced by Biowarean decline, where both combat and exploration were undermined and dumbed-down in order to appeal to people who don't like to play RPGs but just want an excuse for companion dialogue and romances. This period of decline was so severe that it led to the CRPG Wasteland era of 2003-2011, when only a few worthwhile CRPGs were published. Fortunately, Legend of Grimrock in 2012 heralded a new era of hemi-semi-demi incline

Revisionist history much? The second half of the 90's (and very early 2000's) saw the release of games like Fallout, Wizardry 8, Jagged Alliance 2, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, The Temple of Elemental Evil (most of these are even turn-based) and many others which are about as far removed from Biowarean decline as possible. The first Baldur's Gate didn't even have any romances and barely any companion dialogue.

But sure, an uninspired Dungeon Master knock-off like Legend of Grimrock riding the nostalgia wave is totally better than all of those games.

Bioware didn't cause the decline. Nobody was influenced by Bioware except companies making same-engine sequels to Bioware games (i.e. Obsidian). Look at Bioware now: they've been relegated to making a Destiny clone while every other mainstream RPG developer is busy copying Skyrim.

What caused the decline is that nearly every cRPG developer died out in the 90's and early 2000's, for reasons unrelated to Bioware.

Shadow Returns

Surely you mean Shadowrun Returns? But if this is your idea of incline, an RPG that is so absurdly streamlined that you can't even swap items between party members, I question what exactly it is you like about old-school RPG's.

 

[CryptRat]

Diablo

 

[Zer0wing]

Diablo and Oblivion made RPGs onto mass market products and then X-box came

Diablo 2 and Morrowind and happened. Todd found a huge player base on Xbox in 2003 and D2 is just a fine time killer overall. Xbox 360 just cemented the decline.

 

[octavius]

The "I play games for the story" crowd.

 

[Morkar Left]

Diablo

I'm not a fan of Diablo (it's good for what it is) but the time Diablo got released rpgs were already in a dire state. The reason Diablo got connected so much with rpgs is because rpg players hoped that Diablos success would reignite the rpg market. Which was partly true but wouldn't have been possible without the release of BG. Fallout was more for a monocled niche-audience (something of its own).

 

[Roguey]

There were 5 Infinity Engine games.

Don't forget Konung and Konung 2, the Infinity Engine games so obscure that not even Sensuki talks about them.

 

[Elex]

There are plenty of indie games thriving in their niche markets, but as far as the Infinity Engine-style RPGs are concerned - their time has largely come to an end. There's still the occasional pillow of infinity or an original sin here and there, but for the most part the genre has joined RTS games in the graveyard of genres.

It's pretty obvious why RPGs fell out of the AAAAAA game market (and good riddance), but why did they fail to seize the indie market as well? Is it the save-scumming? That goddamn accursed REST button? Janky controls? Unbalanced combat? Josh Sawyer?

Was going to make a poll, but the reasons are innumerable, so feel free to post your thoughts.

this is easy: RPG codex killed them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Coz of the fucking tards who hail the likes of The Witcher 3 as "how to do an RPG", when in reality it's overall dialogue is linear as fuck, and the majority of your time is spent running across boring, barren land & stumbling over "rare" items like Big Macs in McDonalds.

worst part of witcher 3 was the 'witcher vision' AKA the detective mode from the arkham games
half the quests are just 'follow the ""clue"" to the enemy'

 

[Zer0wing]

Don't forget Konung and Konung 2, the Infinity Engine games so obscure that not even Sensuki talks about them.

Well you guys were asking for it. And there's also a Konung 3, BTW

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Don't forget Konung and Konung 2, the Infinity Engine games so obscure that not even Sensuki talks about them.

Well you guys were asking for it. And there's also a Konung 3, BTW

Any good?

 

[FeelTheRads]

There were 5 Infinity Engine games.

Don't forget Konung and Konung 2, the Infinity Engine games so obscure that not even Sensuki talks about them.

I thought the myth that those games were made in the Infinity Engine was busted already?

 

[Zer0wing]

Any good?

Mostly the slavic flavour. I know some gaming press praised itemization but I don't agree on that.

I thought the myth that those games were made in the Infinity Engine was busted already?

It's a myth?

 

[FeelTheRads]

The "I play games for the story" crowd.

This.
And then you have the opposite... when there's no story, everything is a "roguelike" these days, even though it's nothing like Rogue at all.
Fuck, I hate how everything is a fucking roguelike, only because it has random elements and/or perma-death or even just because it's more difficult than the usual "push button to awesome" games of today.

And finally, another contributor to the decline is those developers who claim to develop "old-school games but ready for the modern gamer" and thus made "old-school" mean 2D graphics or other irrelevant shit like this.
Those people can fuck off. You can't do that. It's like writing books for people who can't read. That's just not possible. You pick one or the other.

 

[Mustawd]

PREACH

 

[FeelTheRads]

I thought the myth that those games were made in the Infinity Engine was busted already?

It's a myth?

Well, I only heard it here and there, never seen any proof.
And this post here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/354542/#Comment_354542
But now on Wikipedia the Konung games are off the list.

My guess it's just some myth that started just because the games share a somewhat similar look.

 

[Roguey]

I thought the myth that those games were made in the Infinity Engine was busted already?

According to Phil Daigle, Beamdog employee, they legitimately are Infinity Engine games.

 

[Mustawd]

 

[FeelTheRads]

Actually, if I remember correctly Daigle's post, he pretty much said he didn't know about them, he didn't say if they were IE or not.

But I can't be bothered to search for his post.