KickStarter Wellspring: Altar of Roots - tactical RPG inspired by JRPGs (formerly Bevontule)

[MTG_Derek]

I'm going to ask you a question that I hoped that I wouldn't have to ask: What happens if you don't get funded?

Death, misery and decay!!!

Haha, nahh. That's a good question, really. To be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure. We've sunk quite a bit of time (2.5 years), effort (lots) and personal funding (even more!) into Bevontule, and to be frank, I'm not really sure why it isn't gaining the kind of traction we'd expected. I feel like we did everything as well as we could for the resources we have--and yet, it just isn't really drawing the attention that we need. There are so many variables that it would be impossible to point to any one thing (or multiple things!) and say, "This is why." But suggestions are always welcome, if anyone has any ideas that we haven't already tried!

It would be an incredible disappointment to just... not finish the game at all. So I don't think that can ever happen. But as a two-man indie studio, we don't have many options when our resources are so limited--yeah, we took a huge risk and failure is one outcome, so I'm not going to turn this into a sob story.

As for a bit of good news, we do have a few publishers that are interested in the project, but our dealings so far with different ones have been a bit... one-sided? We've always wanted to maintain our creative integrity as much as possible without having to literally sell our souls (we're pretty damn close as it is) to finish the game. But if we were given the right terms and 'freedom', then sure, it could potentially happen. Worst-case scenario, we go back into the workforce and have to turn Bevontule into a part-time endeavor. That would really suck, but it's certainly not the end of the world. We can always regroup, refocus and try to launch again--maybe on Kickstarter, or maybe elsewhere.

And I can't sit here and pretend that the KS isn't looking bleak at the moment, but given how much time and effort we've put into this, we can't just roll over and die. I'm hoping that if we can get to that 50% goal (I know it's a longshot!) before the last week--or even a few days before the 48 hour notifications go out--we can maybe scrape by. We also have a high-profile youtuber or two going to stream our demo in the next few days and we have a few more updates that can maybe gain us some traction on Imgur and Reddit. And, of course, we can always reach out to media outlets as the campaign draws to a close, but I don't know how willing they'd be to cover us if we don't seem like we'll be on track to succeed.

Anyhow, thanks for asking. It means a lot to have received such an outpouring of support here (you guys make up a pretty sizable chunk of our pledges) and it was nice to put some of these thoughts into words.

 

[Mustawd]

I feel like we did everything as well as we could for the resources we have--and yet, it just isn't really drawing the attention that we need. There are so many variables that it would be impossible to point to any one thing (or multiple things!) and say, "This is why." But suggestions are always welcome, if anyone has any ideas that we haven't already tried!

I have some thoughts:

1. Title sucks. Already mentioned this on the Watch, but just mentioning for completeness sake
2. This game is trying to appeal to both Western RPG and JRPG audiences, but not catering fully to either. What i mean is that JRPGs are predominantly a console genre, so you're automatically not going to get that crowd, as there is little crossover between JRPG fans in PC and consoles. It's a reason why there are still tons of SRPGs and JRPGs who have not gotten proper PC ports. It also doesn't really LOOK like a jrpg, which might not really capture their imagination like a proper JRPG would.

As another example, you can take a look at something like Telepath Tactics. It's a pretty well made tactics game in the vein of the Fire Emblem SRPG series. The combat was well done, the art was ok for the genre it was trying to ape, and overall the dev was a nice guy and responsive. Plus he already had a small built-in user base from his previous games. But the game didn't sell well initially or even after it was patched. A lot of people commented on not liking the anime/jrpg art style for one. BUt at the end of the day trying to sell a console-like game to a PC crowd was the main issue. Had it released on consoles as an indie downloadable it most likely would have gotten more traction.

There are people on the codex who hear the word jrpg, and instantly discount a game. And that remains true for a lot of PC users. So I think while your game doesn't share the aesthetic, it carries that stigma.

TL;DR, as a I said before, you're not getting the JRPG crowd cuz it doesn't look like a JRPG and they are on consoles. And the Western RPG crowd probably is ok with the graphics, but aren't crazy about hearing it's JRPG inspired and probably expect some teenage angst story like you get with a lot of JRPGs or anime in general (which again, most people will lump the two together).

Or maybe not. That's a distinct possibility :D

EDIT:

3. Also, considering the uniqueness of this game, $50,000 is quire a sum of money. Take for example Whalenought Studios. They are a great husband and wife team that the codex loves. They kickstarted a $30,000 game back when the kickstarter crazed was at its highest, and barely got to $60,000 by the skin of their teeth in their next kickstarter (which was a year or two ago). This is after making a lot of fans form their first game.

So I think for a game like yours, $30,000 is probably more of a realistic funding goal. And seeing that you're around $14k now, I think that makes sense.

 

[Abu Antar]

MTG_Derek There's always IndieGoGo with the open campaign option. I got to admit that I am wary about those and don't personally back that type of campaign. It's still an option, though.

I also have to agree with mustawd. I'm not an expert, but in my mind, I thought to myself that the word JRPG wouldn't fly. It didn't turn me off, but I'm an exception to the rule. I enjoy jrpgs, wrpgs or whatever.

 

[MTG_Derek]

I feel like we did everything as well as we could for the resources we have--and yet, it just isn't really drawing the attention that we need. There are so many variables that it would be impossible to point to any one thing (or multiple things!) and say, "This is why." But suggestions are always welcome, if anyone has any ideas that we haven't already tried!

I have some thoughts:

1. Title sucks. Already mentioned this on the Watch, but just mentioning for completeness sake
2. This game is trying to appeal to both Western RPG and JRPG audiences, but not catering fully to either. What i mean is that JRPGs are predominantly a console genre, so you're automatically not going to get that crowd, as there is little crossover between JRPG fans in PC and consoles. It's a reason why there are still tons of SRPGs and JRPGs who have not gotten proper PC ports. It also doesn't really LOOK like a jrpg, which might not really capture their imagination like a proper JRPG would.

As another example, you can take a look at something like Telepath Tactics. It's a pretty well made tactics game in the vein of the Fire Emblem SRPG series. The combat was well done, the art was ok for the genre it was trying to ape, and overall the dev was a nice guy and responsive. Plus he already had a small built-in user base from his previous games. But the game didn't sell well initially or even after it was patched. A lot of people commented on not liking the anime/jrpg art style for one. BUt at the end of the day trying to sell a console-like game to a PC crowd was the main issue. Had it released on consoles as an indie downloadable it most likely would have gotten more traction.

There are people on the codex who hear the word jrpg, and instantly discount a game. And that remains true for a lot of PC users. So I think while your game doesn't share the aesthetic, it carries that stigma.

TL;DR, as a I said before, you're not getting the JRPG crowd cuz it doesn't look like a JRPG and they are on consoles. And the Western RPG crowd probably is ok with the graphics, but aren't crazy about hearing it's JRPG inspired and probably expect some teenage angst story like you get with a lot of JRPGs or anime in general (which again, most people will lump the two together).

Or maybe not. That's a distinct possibility :D

EDIT:

3. Also, considering the uniqueness of this game, $50,000 is quire a sum of money. Take for example Whalenought Studios. They are a great husband and wife team that the codex loves. They kickstarted a $30,000 game back when the kickstarter crazed was at its highest, and barely got to $60,000 by the skin of their teeth in their next kickstarter (which was a year or two ago). This is after making a lot of fans form their first game.

So I think for a game like yours, $30,000 is probably more of a realistic funding goal. And seeing that you're around $14k now, I think that makes sense.

MTG_Derek There's always IndieGoGo with the open campaign option. I got to admit that I am wary about those and don't personally back that type of campaign. It's still an option, though.

I also have to agree with mustawd. I'm not an expert, but in my mind, I thought to myself that the word JRPG wouldn't fly. It didn't turn me off, but I'm an exception to the rule. I enjoy jrpgs, wrpgs or whatever.

You guys have raised valid points and I appreciate you bringing them up. I argue that there have been a few notable JRPG-style games that have been backed and even released on PC (!), such as Edge of Eternity and Legrand Legacy, to name a few. I would also argue that with the recent popularity of Final Fantasy PC ports that people are, in general, not completely turned off to the idea of JRPGs on PC--but I'm not even sure that JRPG means what it once meant. The art style of Final Fantasy games are certainly not anime-ish and yet, would anyone argue that they're not JRPGs? They were made in Japan, that's about it. Being turn-based, is that the deciding factor? I've always thought of it as the progression/idea of an over-arching, linear storyline itself. How else do you describe that? Who knows.

It's also a bit interesting to me that people want unique options, but the games that tend to perform the best are practically carbon copies (with rare exception) of established titles. I won't name any names, but practically every tactical indie game that comes out is either a FFT or Banner Saga clone. And I don't necessarily blame them, it's just--there is an obviously vocal group that wants unique gameplay and when we try to provide it, it somehow still doesn't appeal to them. And sure, there are lots of types of 'unique gameplay', but I tend to think that gamers will choose the safer options every time if they can. And again, while I do get what you're saying, you guys are... obviously a more hardcore group of what is already a 'niche' genre, but becoming increasingly less so (or maybe it's just that all genres are bringing in aspects of RPGs) And there is a heavy bias here towards CRPGs (at least, from what I can tell.), so I'm not sure that your viewpoint is necessarily reflective of the larger 'demographic.' But it doesn't mean that they aren't valid concerns, by any means, and I certainly don't want to imply that you guys are incorrect, these are just my thoughts on the matter.

As for the funding goal, I've seen way less make way more--and this isn't to smack talk either, but the cardinal rule of crowdfunding is to actually ask what you think you'll need. Asking for way less and not having enough to deliver can wreck a studio worse than failing a Kickstarter and then being able to try again at another point. And sure, in hindsight, yeah, 50k seems like a lot now that the campaign has only raised close to 14k. But if we had that one decent press boost or youtuber early on (despite our best efforts and those of our PR firm), things would look a little differently, I think.

If a second attempt is necessary, I'll make sure to rebrand it "The Bevontuleer." Just for you, mustawd. :D

 

[GarfunkeL]

It's also a bit interesting to me that people want unique options, but the games that tend to perform the best are practically carbon copies

Ah, you have discovered the unique human behaviour of duplicity! Plenty of people pay lip service to high-minded ideals but when it comes down to it, they prefer the convenience of their couch and McJunk stuffed in their mouths. Even here on Codex, loads of posters ignore Age of Decadence and Underrail while playing Bethesda and Bioware games, yet from their posts you'd expect them to support indies and play nothing else.

 

[Mustawd]

I argue that there have been a few notable JRPG-style games that have been backed and even released on PC (!), such as Edge of Eternity and Legrand Legacy, to name a few.

Who? Not trying to be edgy. Literally don't know what you're referring to. And I tend to follow pretty obscure indie rpgs.

(looks at KS campaigns). Dude, those games are super anime'd. No wonder I haven't heard anything about them.

he art style of Final Fantasy games are certainly not anime-ish

I disagree. Check out the screenshots below. I don't care what you say, but that screams anime-like to me.

Spoiler

Being turn-based, is that the deciding factor?

I'd say that doesn't necessarily make it a jrpg.

It's also a bit interesting to me that people want unique options, but the games that tend to perform the best are practically carbon copies (with rare exception) of established titles. I won't name any names, but practically every tactical indie game that comes out is either a FFT or Banner Saga clone. And I don't necessarily blame them, it's just--there is an obviously vocal group that wants unique gameplay and when we try to provide it, it somehow still doesn't appeal to them. And sure, there are lots of types of 'unique gameplay', but I tend to think that gamers will choose the safer options every time if they can.

Hey, I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying what i think is true in terms of most people's reactions. JRPGs and WRPGs are very different animals with very different audiences. I don't mind at all what you're trying to do. I'm just saying that it's a difficult sell and it's difficult to reach both audiences.

I'm not sure that your viewpoint is necessarily reflective of the larger 'demographic.'

Fair enough. But also realize that we have thousands of users who are not regular posters. We also have plenty of lurkers out there with the same tastes. So what I'm saying is that if the vast majority are being put off due to these issues, then that's costing you a lot in potential backers.

As for the funding goal, I've seen way less make way more--and this isn't to smack talk either, but the cardinal rule of crowdfunding is to actually ask what you think you'll need. Asking for way less and not having enough to deliver can wreck a studio worse than failing a Kickstarter and then being able to try again at another point. And sure, in hindsight, yeah, 50k seems like a lot now that the campaign has only raised close to 14k. But if we had that one decent press boost or youtuber early on (despite our best efforts and those of our PR firm), things would look a little differently, I think.

I disagree with your premise in terms of comparing to other projects if you're not gonna give concrete example. For one, there were a lot of crappy KS games backed during the initial KS craze. Also, if these games you're talking about have outstanding visuals, that usually really gets people's attention. But it still might be a crap game otherwise.

But what I was trying to communicate is not that you should lower the goal. I'm just saying what i think is maybe causing the issues. The goal is too high for your type of game to have a smash KS campaign. At least with the current level of hype and your current marketing efforts.

I'm just saying what i think man. You do what you will with that feedback.

 

[Grauken]

Mustawd is pretty nice for the codex

And agree on his points, though I would go even farther and say being a mix of two worlds is more damning, its not anime enough for jRPGs, and not western enough for cRPG fans

 

[MTG_Derek]

Mustawd is pretty nice for the codex

And agree on his points, though I would go even farther and say being a mix of two worlds is more damning, its not anime enough for jRPGs, and not western enough for cRPG fans

We were never really trying to appeal to the cRPG crowd--our primary emphasis has always been on the turn-based, tactical crowd. So, really, I guess it's a failure on our end for not properly communicating what the game is, which obviously, is not really that easy to do, when it isn't just focused solely on tactical combat. Lessons learned, I suppose.

 

[Grauken]

Well, you have PC tactical games and console tactical games as well, where you have exactly the same problem. There might be an overlap of X-Com/Jagged alliance fans and FF Tactics fans, but I'm not sure how big it is

 

[Mustawd]

Was gonna say the exact same thing Grauken said.

 

[Abu Antar]

It could also be a bad crowdfunding period. I'm following an ongoing campaign on FIG and it isn't doing well:
https://www.fig.co/campaigns/nightmarchers

And one ongoing on Kickstarter (these guys have a previously released game and an early demo concept): https://www.kickstarter.com/project...rise-a-classic-tactical-rpg-with-a-t?ref=card

Swery, the guy behind games like Deadly Premonition had a failed FIG campaign for his rpg The Good Life. He'll try on Kickstarter next.

In other words, it might also be that you haven't done much wrong.

 

[Mustawd]

Not sure i agree. This kickstarter has already met its goal and surpassed Bevontule's current funding in just 7 days of being live:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aurochdigitalltd/achtung-cthulhu-tactics-action-rpg-video-game

Also, the KS campaigns you mentioned seem to have some bad marketing. Do they even have codex threads? You'd think the developers would be posting in RPG forums, trying to drum up support. I never understand some of these devs. How am I supposed to fund a game I never heard of?

 

[Mustawd]

Also, MTG_Derek , you might want to check out this forum:

http://www.rpgfan.com/boards/index.php

It's a very Weeb heavy rpg fan site. Worth a try I think.

 

[santino27]

I think 50k might just be a hard ask in these times. Backed it anyway. Best of luck.

 

[MTG_Derek]

I think 50k might just be a hard ask in these times. Backed it anyway. Best of luck.

Appreciate the support!

 

[Abu Antar]

There's always ResetEra, too. It's a site a lot of people here hate , but it has over 30K members and they are more into JRPGs than WRPGs. I'd basically create an account on every major gaming forum and introduce myself if I was designing a game.

 

[MTG_Derek]

I'll check them out. Thanks.

 

[Urthor]

The obligatory AMA on /r/gaming is literally hundreds of dollars in free advertising with reddit's eyeball traffic, might as well give that a go

 

[MTG_Derek]

Not sure i agree. This kickstarter has already met its goal and surpassed Bevontule's current funding in just 7 days of being live:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aurochdigitalltd/achtung-cthulhu-tactics-action-rpg-video-game

Also, the KS campaigns you mentioned seem to have some bad marketing. Do they even have codex threads? You'd think the developers would be posting in RPG forums, trying to drum up support. I never understand some of these devs. How am I supposed to fund a game I never heard of?

Of course that's doing well! It's based on an existing universe and is all about miniatures and digitizing them--it doesn't even have gameplay... Although, I suppose "Vupline: Be a fox with a Sword" (1 of 2 fox-based protagonist games currently on KS) is doing better than us too, so I guess we just suck.

 

[Mustawd]

 

[thesheeep]

Yeah, I'm also quite baffled by how many obviously well-setup KS/Fig campaigns with actually showable (or even demoable) material are not doing well - while some nonsense like Nazis with Cthulhu hits its goal without having anything even remotely resembling gameplay shown.
And that fox game... Jesus

What I think is the biggest problem for many campaign is that if they don't start well, it is basically over.
Even people interested in the game probably just look at funding progress, see it isn't doing well, and then don't back because "why bother, doesn't seem to be making it anyway". People are simple like that. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
And there really isn't much devs can do to turn it around.

Which leads to the thought that the biggest amount of work is not the campaign itself, but preparing for it long it advance, going into all relevant communities, contacting streamers (if applicable), etc.
To use momentum for the campaign instead of trying to gain momentum with the campaign.

Of course, I have no idea if you did or did not do that beforehand.
And even if, crowdfunding just seems to be one gigantic gamble for anything except safe bets.

 

[MTG_Derek]

Yeah, I'm also quite baffled by how many obviously well-setup KS/Fig campaigns with actually showable (or even demoable) material are not doing well - while some nonsense like Nazis with Cthulhu hits its goal without having anything even remotely resembling gameplay shown.
And that fox game... Jesus

What I think is the biggest problem for many campaign is that if they don't start well, it is basically over.
Even people interested in the game probably just look at funding progress, see it isn't doing well, and then don't back because "why bother, doesn't seem to be making it anyway". People are simple like that. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
And there really isn't much devs can do to turn it around.

Which leads to the thought that the biggest amount of work is not the campaign itself, but preparing for it long it advance, going into all relevant communities, contacting streamers (if applicable), etc.
To use momentum for the campaign instead of trying to gain momentum with the campaign.

Of course, I have no idea if you did or did not do that beforehand.
And even if, crowdfunding just seems to be one gigantic gamble for anything except safe bets.

Let me just preface this by saying that I truly appreciate all of the feedback and support we've gotten here, and if I sound a little grumpy at times--I apologize. The previous post wasn't meant to insult or sound hostile or like we somehow 'deserve' success, as no one does. It's more just a voicing of frustrations that have accompanied the months leading up to the Kickstarter and the way it's progressed since.

We spent a lot of time building up a community via social media, this forum, mailing lists, conferences, demos, youtubers, et cetera--but interestingly, a lot of people simply seemed to disappear from the face of the Earth once our Kickstarter launched. Press that covered us before when our game looked like absolute ass (arguably, still does ), streamers that played our earlier demos--nowhere to be found. I don't know if the landscape has really shifted that much or what the rationale is. Perhaps mustawd. is right and our 'pitch' is just wrong or doesn't appeal to enough people or isn't able to hook anyone--who knows. I think that's probably the most difficult part of this, is having no idea what, if anything, could be done to turn it around. Maybe we launched too soon or too late, or we should've released our (sixth) demo beforehand... maybe we shouldn't have released a demo. Maybe we showed 'too much.' Maybe there aren't enough other games on Kickstarter to drum up interest, maybe it's the title, maybe it's all of those things or none of them.

We were 20% funded within our first two days. Sure we could have had more momentum, but we spent an embarrassingly long amount of time researching other Kickstarters and trying to gauge what we needed to raise on the first few days--yes, they're incredibly critical and it seemed like we'd done 'well enough' to build momentum. We spent a considerable sum of money on a PR team and did the best we could with what our admittedly small team could muster. We've been told over and over that 50k is too little. Some people tell us it's too much. Maybe our reward structure is wrong.

And the interesting thing is that, like you said, even if people liked the project, they probably--and paradoxically--still wouldn't back because of optics, this despite doing incredibly well the first few days. Even though if they backed now, it's not like they'd lose anything if we weren't funded. So yeah... I'm not sure what it is. Certainly no reason to give up just yet, but I think you summed it up best in saying that it is just a gigantic gamble. Sure, you can skew the odds in your favor to some extent, and perhaps we just didn't do enough.

Either way, appreciate the ears and eyes.

 

[Mustawd]

I don't think anyone ITT wants to see you fail. I do believe everything I said, but like you said it might be just a seasonal issue with KS right now. If anything, I think most of us just try to give honest feedback, as that's probably more valuable then just telling you how awesome you are.

Although....

Spoiler

Good luck on the rest of the campaign man.

 

[Grauken]

Most of us here are in the same boat, we see good looking well prepared project stumble (with demos), and ass-looking flash games with incoherent concepts succeed, and go all . I think VD had it pretty much when he said its easier to sell visions and aspirations with nothing to show, than actually having a demo showing something, because then you can't fool people anymore

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/850696222/bevontule-altar-of-roots/posts/2111158

30% Funded and Two Stretch Goals Revealed!

Hi guys! We're excited to announce that we've hit the 30% mark and have revealed two of our upcoming stretch goals--note that these are just the first two and we have about eight planned! The faster we can get to 50%, the faster we can reveal the next one--and I have to say, it's pretty awesome and possibly involves a new playable character! :D

Stretch Goals #1 and #2

Two unlocked, six to go!

The final 'dungeon' of Bevontule: Altar of Roots encompasses the vast, uncharted ruins of Sallasat, a once quirky, yet dominant nation, nestled safely behind an impenetrable barrier--or so they thought. Reduced to rubble by their own hubris, a perfect storm of plentiful corpses, technological wonders and relative isolation led to a proliferation of Kelvari of all shapes, sizes and capabilities.

Sallasat, root-covered

If we reach our first stretch goal, you'll be able to take on what will be the strongest miniboss in the game, based on this concept art:

Who wouldn't want to fight this guy!?

For our second stretch goal, we'll be adding three new tracks to our official OST! These three tracks will include an alternate battle theme, an alternate boss theme and another special track--let's get there and find out what it is!

And once again, we'd be remiss if we didn't thank everyone that's come along with us on this journey thus far! Your words of encouragement, feedback and unyielding support have truly meant a lot to us. While we still have a long way to go, we've broken past one of the bigger hurdles and we can only climb from here!

Just to show how far we've come, here's a short video that shows off some graphical updates between last year and now--while this is far from the only improvement we've made, we hope that this shows how dedicated we are to this project and what we could be able to accomplish after another year of development! Help us make that a reality!