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Good examples of this ludonarrative stuff

Silva

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Ever since Dark Souls opened my eyes to the wonders of fusing gameplay and narrative together in a coherent whole, I've become fascinated by it and been looking for other games that do the same. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, try to remember ye olde rpg where you have this cycle of eternal save and reload that's external/divorced of the game's fictional world/setting, then notice how Dark Souls actually integrates this process to it's game world and explains it through its mythos. Since then I've come to know this is called ludonarrative resonance (or something) and that this is a somewhat new thing. Older games didn't care much for it.

Well then, what other games do this shit well in your opinion? And is it really a new thing?
 

sser

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I've seen it as Ludonarrative Dissonance which is actually a complete opposite effect of what you're talking about -- most notably, someone like Lara Croft going "boohoo I killed someone" in cutscenes and then full Rambo in actual gameplay.
 
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I believe Outcast did something like this with saving. Also maybe Consortium did something like that - you were injecting yourself into the game world (or was that a pitch for Tower one?). And System Shock 1 to some degree - you were playing as a hacker which sees world through his cybernetic interface, which helped to suspense disbelief.
 

sser

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The Swapper has one of a sort - it's a puzzle game where you make clones of yourself and 'swap' your position into one to move them around in sequence. The game implies you're not entirely certain which of the clones is you or to what extent the clones, altogether, are you. Like which one even has your actual consciousness? The one you've piloted last? Or do all of them have your consciousness? Because that's a terrifying thought as you dumpster your clones to certain doom just to get past an obstacle.

And it's kinda cheeky, but Jagged Alliance's use of a laptop to read emails, shop for gear, recruit and more is a great way of tying the game's setting together with the player's own interactions despite a gulf of abstractions.
 

Jokzore

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Older games didn't care much for it.

Planescape Torment

As far as modern games go Nier Automata does it even better than Dark Souls.

I suppose Bioshock and Grimrock are worth a mention, but their 'explanations' for the endless cycle of death and rebirth is not nearly as elegant, more of a cheap cop-out.
 
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BLOBERT

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BROS IT IS MOSTLY USED IN TERMS OF DISSONANCE CAUSE YOU DONT NOTUICE THE ISSUE UNLESS THEY FUCK IT UP

BROS LOOK AT GTA 4

LIKE ITS A BIG MORAL DILEMMA TO KILL ONE DUFDE WHEN YOUVE FUCKIG KILLED HALF A CITY

MAKES THE PLOT SEEM STUPID ASD SHIT
 

Cross

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Ever since Dark Souls opened my eyes to the wonders of fusing gameplay and narrative together in a coherent whole, I've become fascinated by it and been looking for other games that do the same. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, try to remember ye olde rpg where you have this cycle of eternal save and reload that's external/divorced of the game's fictional world/setting, then notice how Dark Souls actually integrates this process to it's game world and explains it through its mythos. Since then I've come to know this is called ludonarrative resonance (or something) and that this is a somewhat new thing. Older games didn't care much for it.
this is a somewhat new thing. Older games didn't care much for it.
:hmmm:

Older games had little to no cutscenes or other kinds of forced story segments, so how could they suffer from the narrative being heavily at odds with the gameplay mechanics? Ludonarrative dissonance is a phenomenon mostly found in modern games and especially console games, which tend to have a strong separation between story and gameplay. Although as your post indicates, I suspect most of the people who use this term don't have a clue of what they're talking about.

Dark Souls is a fairly abstract game, so it's hardly a great example of ludonarrative resonance. The lore surrounding hollowing/humanity, soul gathering and bonfires doesn't make the slightest narrative sense, and is basically cryptic set dressing for an interesting twist on the checkpoint save system.

While they do still let you save/load at any time, Ultima Underworld (Silver Sapling) and the System Shock games (Restoration Bays) have in-universe explanations for resurrection upon death.
 
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Walden

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Well, the biggest threat to immersion in games is death, because it should be the most fearsome aspect(and no, horrible checkpoints allocation is not a solution, quite the contrary). Souls games did something in this regard, but nothing particularly clever.
 

TheRedSnifit

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Ludonarrative dissonance is the opposite, where the gameplay and storytelling bits undercut each other. The GTA games are the most obvious examples, where they may have a story about a guy trying to bring his family together and make ends meet but allow that same guy to be a millionaire mass murderer through the gameplay.

One game that I felt melded story and gameplay was No More Heroes (which is kind of mocking this in general), where the open world only allows you to do things the protagonist would do. There's an open world full of clubs and a beach and shit, but you only have access to some nerdy stores and the protagonist's jobs because he's a loser who wouldn't go to clubs or beaches.

Older games didn't care much for it.

Planescape Torment

As far as modern games go Nier Automata does it even better than Dark Souls.

I suppose Bioshock and Grimrock are worth a mention, but their 'explanations' for the endless cycle of death and rebirth is not nearly as elegant, more of a cheap cop-out.

It's probably worth noting that Bioshock was the game that the term "ludonarrative dissonance" was coined to describe.
 
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Black_Willow

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Ever since Dark Souls opened my eyes to the wonders of fusing gameplay and narrative together in a coherent whole
Yeah, I remember Dork Souls and how all the enemies managed not only to come back from the dead, but also rebuild exactly the same wooden constructions they destroyed before, and they managed to do it during the time I rested beside a bonefire.
Oh, and that wyvern, which scorched exactly the same skeletons when it took a flight above a bridge, times and times again.
A masterful mix of gameplay and narrative indeed.
 

Silva

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I believe Outcast did something like this with saving. Also maybe Consortium did something like that - you were injecting yourself into the game world (or was that a pitch for Tower one?). And System Shock 1 to some degree - you were playing as a hacker which sees world through his cybernetic interface, which helped to suspense disbelief.
Yep, I remember SS1 explaining that your HUD was actually, you know, the same as the character's. And about Consortium, how so? Do you mean the character is supposed to be the player? Now that you mention it I remember that crazy David Bowie sci-fi game where each time you as a player sit down to play meant your soul accupied the protagonist's body.

The Swapper has one of a sort - it's a puzzle game where you make clones of yourself and 'swap' your position into one to move them around in sequence. The game implies you're not entirely certain which of the clones is you or to what extent the clones, altogether, are you. Like which one even has your actual consciousness? The one you've piloted last? Or do all of them have your consciousness? Because that's a terrifying thought as you dumpster your clones to certain doom just to get past an obstacle.
What do you mean, that some of those clones are supposed to be the actual player (like, me?). I've played that shit to almost completion and never noticed this.

As far as modern games go Nier Automata does it even better than Dark Souls.
Yeah, I forgot about Automata. It's whole Pause menu exists in-game for all androids (and can be hacked and fucked with), it's save and load are actually the characters saving their memory state and then downloading it on a new body after death, the HUD is actually in-game and can be editted by the player/character, etc. Really neat indeed.
 

Xeon

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IIRC MCA praised the Bioshock series for their visual narrative or something.
 

Silva

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:hmmm:

Older games had little to no cutscenes or other kinds of forced story segments, so how could they suffer from the narrative being heavily at odds with the gameplay mechanics? Ludonarrative dissonance is a phenomenon mostly found in modern games and especially console games, which tend to have a strong separation between story and gameplay. Although as your post indicates, I suspect most of the people who use this term don't have a clue of what they're talking about.
And yet old games rarely bothered to integrate it's LUDO elements (XP, Levels, HUD, save/load) into the NARRATIVE. The fact people remember System Shock for doing it (partially) is the exception that proves the rule. Ignoring this integration may not be as cringey as having cutscenes contradicting the gameplay, sure, but its something newer games try to improve on and older ones ignored.

Dark Souls is a fairly abstract game, so it's hardly a great example of ludonarrative resonance.
I can't see the relation.

The lore surrounding hollowing/humanity, soul gathering and bonfires doesn't make the slightest narrative sense, and is basically cryptic set dressing for an interesting twist on the checkpoint save system
WHA DA FUCK AM I READING? Hollowing/humanity, soul gathering and bonfires (NARRATIVE) are so integral to the game's gameplay (LUDO) that one doesn't exist without the other. Or else try this little exercise: rename "souls" back to XP like in ye olde RPG, and see if the narrative continues making sense. Guess what? it doesnt, and you would have to rebuild it entirely from scratch. Now do the same to your RPG of olde and see how you may swap "XP" for any term you like (kisses in the ass, for eg) and it will be irrelevant and not affect anything at all.

Do you grognards shut down their brains while playing these days to preserve the marvels of Pong and Pac-Man from the encroaching darkness of booze, or what? Go back and play Souls series with your brain turned on and we can discuss, old man.
 

Master

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If it didn't have good combat nobody would give a shit about souls and bonefires.
 

Silva

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Hey Cross , how about in ULTIMA series entering in people's homes and robbing their ass out while being the AVATAR, the being of utmost virtue in the universe??? How ludo ressonant that sounds for you, old dude? :lol:

I do think that the soul gathering made the most sense in Demon's Souls.
Elaborate, please. And how about Bloodborne, where it fits in your scale?

Spirit Meter.
This is actually pretty clever. Making an important combat mechanic have a in-game meaning/explanation.
 
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Delterius

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I do think that the soul gathering made the most sense in Demon's Souls.
Elaborate, please. How about Bloodborne, where it fits in your scale?
It doesn't really because I haven't played it. I was under the impression Bloodborn was its own thing.

Keep in mind I played both of these a long time ago and don't necessarily remember everything. I also only played the first Dark Soul.

I think Demon's Souls did a great job at introducing some of the more key aspects of the Souls series. It makes everything clear upfront. King Allant summoned the Devil, who releases the maddening fog that makes people go crazy and hunger for souls. All who consume souls become more powerful but also turn into demons. You hunt for the souls of the weak to become stronger -- and you hunt for the souls of the strong to gain a right to tackle the Devil problem.

Dark Souls took that concept of 'experience as soul gathering' and refined it into a different and more interesting lore. The new series incorporated themes of eternal decay and mythology that although present in the first game were much better realized in Dark Souls. As such, a lot of the lore revolves around the actions of the Gods and the inevitable fading of the Flame. So while the player knows soon enough the reason why he seeks the souls of the Lords, its not evident why they grow stronger from killing other hollows. Hell, I don't really remember if the game gives you an explanation for it. Is it you joining the shattered pieces of the Dark Soul? I don't know.

I only think Demon's Soul was slightly tighter about it all.
 

Cross

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WHA DA FUCK AM I READING? Hollowing/humanity, soul gathering and bonfires (NARRATIVE) are so integral to the game's gameplay (LUDO) that one doesn't exist without the other. Or else try this little exercise: rename "souls" back to XP like in ye olde RPG, and see if the remaining gameplay continues making sense. Guess what? it doesnt, and you would have to rebuild the entire lore and narrative from scratch. Now do the same to your RPG of olde and see how you may swap "XP" for any term you like (kisses in the ass, for eg) and it will be irrelevant to the narrative.
:prosper:Thanks for reminding me how an otherwise good game like Dark Souls somehow managed to produce one of the most cringeworthy fanbases in all of gaming. When they're not making delusional hour-long videos where they analyze the item description of a common short sword as if it contains the key to unlocking the mystery of life, they're making utterly embarassing forum posts like this.

Do you seriously think the souls in Dark Souls are anything more than a very abstract XP system (that also doubles as a currency system for buying and upgrading items)? We are talking about a game where you can eat the soul of one special person to instantly get thousands of 'normal' souls, which can be used to do anything from leveling up to sharpening a sword to shopping for groceries, and where becoming less undead and more human inexplicably results in more loot drops from monsters. The souls in Dark Souls are so abstract and unrelated to any fictional/theological/philosophical concept of souls that you could replace them with any random universal currency and it would make about as much sense. In fact, that's what Souls clones do, one of them even uses literal garbage as its equivalent of souls.

An example of a game that actually has a ludonarrative currency system would be Fallout or Ultima Underworld, since a barter economy obviously makes sense in a lawless post-apocalyptic universe or a lawless underground civilization. That's how you integrate world building into mechanics.

Here is an example of a game that actually uses souls as a central gameplay mechanic: http://sacrifice-shiny.wikia.com/wiki/Souls, not just as a superficial aesthetic element.

And yet old games rarely bothered to integrate it's LUDO elements (XP, Levels, HUD, save/load) into the NARRATIVE.
:retarded: What is there to integrate? Yes, the things you mention are abstract representations of something relative to the player character(s). These abstractions are necessary to some extent for gameplay purposes. How is Dark Souls any different in that regard? You still have menus filled with numerical representations of a character's capabilities and upgrade systems. If anything, Dark Souls handles these things in an even more abstract manner than many other RPG's. Are you also going to complain that a game with an isometric or third-person perspective lets you see more than the character should be able to? Because that's the level of pedantry you're approaching.
 
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Jacob

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Oh, and that wyvern, which scorched exactly the same skeletons when it took a flight above a bridge, times and times again.
A masterful mix of gameplay and narrative indeed.
I subconciously read this as "that wymyn" :negative:
 

Delterius

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We are talking about a game where you can eat the soul of one special person to instantly get thousands of 'normal' souls, which can be used to do anything from leveling up to sharpening a sword to shopping for groceries,
Well, yes. The reason why you can also use souls to trade with NPCs is because everyone is an undead who needs to consume them.
 

AMG

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Papers, Please integrates storytelling and gameplay better than anything else I played.
 

Silva

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So Cross , when Dark Souls presents souls as a currency it's a shitty gimmick, but when Sacrifice does the same thing it's genius? Pffff take out that rose tinted glasses, old fag. And I'm not saying old games totally lacked this, but it seems clear to me games these days are striving to improve on this aspect in a conscious way. Perhaps after it actually came to being in the Bioshock criticism pointed to by TheRedSnifit above.

It doesn't really because I haven't played it. I was under the impression Bloodborn was its own thing.

Keep in mind I played both of these a long time ago and don't necessarily remember everything. I also only played the first Dark Soul.

I think Demon's Souls did a great job at introducing some of the more key aspects of the Souls series. It makes everything clear upfront. King Allant summoned the Devil, who releases the maddening fog that makes people go crazy and hunger for souls. All who consume souls become more powerful but also turn into demons. You hunt for the souls of the weak to become stronger -- and you hunt for the souls of the strong to gain a right to tackle the Devil problem.

Dark Souls took that concept of 'experience as soul gathering' and refined it into a different and more interesting lore. The new series incorporated themes of eternal decay and mythology that although present in the first game were much better realized in Dark Souls. As such, a lot of the lore revolves around the actions of the Gods and the inevitable fading of the Flame. So while the player knows soon enough the reason why he seeks the souls of the Lords, its not evident why they grow stronger from killing other hollows. Hell, I don't really remember if the game gives you an explanation for it. Is it you joining the shattered pieces of the Dark Soul? I don't know.

I only think Demon's Soul was slightly tighter about it all.
Makes sense. Dark Souls indeed lack the kind of rationale that you describe above. Damn, they should release a remaster of Demon's Souls.

Dead Space rig suit is a ludonarrative ( man what a retarded word)
Elaborate? I love Dead Space 1 (the others are popamole garbage) but can't remember anything of note in that respect.
 

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