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T. Reich
Arcane
IMO, the best cRPG openings generally do one of two things:
1) Throw you in a middle of the action, where you have to scramble and get to your first "safe zone"/quest hub. BUT (a big but), it should NOT be a separate "tutorial" area that you're never coming back to, but rather an integral part of the larger game world.
2) Start you off in front of an open world ("open" is relative, but you must have a choice of things to do) with only a vague idea of where to go and what to do (a good starting hook - a mission objective - is essential, but it should have 0 handholding).
The bad ones usually lock you up in a separate mandatory "tutorial" area, which is usually a chore you have to get through. This can take a form either an "introductory dungeon", or a "starting town" that you can't usually leave until you do a bunch of boring simple quests.
1) Throw you in a middle of the action, where you have to scramble and get to your first "safe zone"/quest hub. BUT (a big but), it should NOT be a separate "tutorial" area that you're never coming back to, but rather an integral part of the larger game world.
2) Start you off in front of an open world ("open" is relative, but you must have a choice of things to do) with only a vague idea of where to go and what to do (a good starting hook - a mission objective - is essential, but it should have 0 handholding).
The bad ones usually lock you up in a separate mandatory "tutorial" area, which is usually a chore you have to get through. This can take a form either an "introductory dungeon", or a "starting town" that you can't usually leave until you do a bunch of boring simple quests.
Taelyn
Literate
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2017
- Messages
- 18
My favorite beginning area I've played is Baldur's Gate 1. I like that it gives you a reason for why you're out there without being long (holy crap was Skyrim's opening too long lol XD). It also had the tutorials that you could do but you could skip, which I liked.
Oh, my!
laclongquan
Arcane
But XP! Look, it's shiny shiny XP on a trapped plate~ :here fishy fishy:
Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,522
And lo, Willy toiled long and hard to - Who shoved that spike up my arse???
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2015
- Messages
- 1,872
Feel like the best areas are generally the ones straight after the tutorial areas. That's where you have the most fun in the game because everything's new and fresh, and I feel one of the biggest parts of why BG2 is so good is that the best content comes straight away, makes its first impression and blows you away. If a game makes that area look good you can pull off a DOS2 and wow reviewers, even though your areas after that get progressively worse.
Also, generally speaking the tutorial areas for sequels feel better because you've already learnt the stuff and they take the opportunity to be less heavy handed.
Witcher 3's tutorial area probably also counts as one of the best zones ever made in a video game and one of the strongest in that game I thought, loved the everything of it even though it's an ARPG obviously.
Also, generally speaking the tutorial areas for sequels feel better because you've already learnt the stuff and they take the opportunity to be less heavy handed.
Witcher 3's tutorial area probably also counts as one of the best zones ever made in a video game and one of the strongest in that game I thought, loved the everything of it even though it's an ARPG obviously.
Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,522
I don't know why modern game devs refuse to do like what many old RTS games did with regards to tutorials: Put it in another section separate to the main game. Age of Empires had a tutorial campaign and then the other campaigns are full bore fights. No more hand holding. That way, you can jump straight into the game without going through a tedious tutorial every single time.
Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,522
No. More like Fallout Tactics, where the tutorial is a separate part of the game altogether. Nothing you do in the tutorial carries across. You aren't even using the same character.
Or Age of Empires 2, where the tutorial campaign is the William Wallace one, and every other campaign has nothing to do with it.
In this way, new players can go through the tutorial and learn how stuff works, while veterans can skip it entirely with ZERO loss.
NWN2 does a similar thing. If you chose to skip the tutorial, you automatically go to level 3, which is where you should end up if you did go through the tutorial. I am not sure if you get the Harvest Cup or Cloak if you skip, but those are things that isn't mean much anyway, and should be the only 2 items that transfers across from the tutorial.
The problem with the Temple of Trials in Fallout 2 (for example) is that you end up being a lower level and lose quite a bit of starting saleable gear if you skip the Temple.
ShaggyMoose
Savant
I found Ultima 8 to be one of the more memorable beginnings to a game. The Avatar is defeated and exiled and finds himself introduced to the curious lore of Pagan as a witness to a grisly beheading. Trying to piece the factions and events together through the initial conversations with NPCs was quite memorable. The locale and tone were vastly different and darker than previous Ultimas, without being made "edgy" (thank God). Unfortunately, this was coupled with mindless, aggravating combat, uninspired dungeons and inconceivably shitty jumping puzzles. The various schools of magic still managed to maintain my interest to the end, even if they were completely impractical to actually use.
laclongquan
Arcane
If you make it optional nobody would bother doing tuto despite all telling them to do so. Then idiot reviewers will say the game is uninituitive and stuff.
Falksi
Arcane
Dragon Age Origins deserves big praise for the Origin aspect. It definitely helped keep the game fresh on re-plays.
Morrowind did it for me, simply because it was so superbly crafted & original. The atmosphere combined with alien sights such as silt-striders sucked me in immensely.
The original Deus Ex also opens superbly - enough freedom and unknown aspects so that you've plenty to discover, and plenty of fun doing so. But also enough structure, confinement & guidance so that you never feel lost. I remember finishing the first level and feeling "wow, feels like I've done loads and should be about a 3rd of the way through the game......but that was just the tutorial!" Great stuff
Morrowind did it for me, simply because it was so superbly crafted & original. The atmosphere combined with alien sights such as silt-striders sucked me in immensely.
The original Deus Ex also opens superbly - enough freedom and unknown aspects so that you've plenty to discover, and plenty of fun doing so. But also enough structure, confinement & guidance so that you never feel lost. I remember finishing the first level and feeling "wow, feels like I've done loads and should be about a 3rd of the way through the game......but that was just the tutorial!" Great stuff
T. Reich
Arcane
The original Deus Ex also opens superbly - enough freedom and unknown aspects so that you've plenty to discover, and plenty of fun doing so. But also enough structure, confinement & guidance so that you never feel lost. I remember finishing the first level and feeling "wow, feels like I've done loads and should be about a 3rd of the way through the game......but that was just the tutorial!" Great stuff
Funny thing is, there is a separate tutorial in EX, accessible from the main menu. It takes the form of your final field exam in the UNATCO academy.
The first mission is just that - the first mission. It has minimal handholding and gameplay instructions, because you're already expected to have familiarised yourself with the basics by means of the manual and the aforementioned tutorial mission.
Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,522
If you create a game pandering to idiot reviewers, you end up like EA.
DJOGamer PT
Arcane
Morrowind and Deus Ex.
They a perfect example how it should be done. You create your character, have at the most some 3 minutes of exposition and that's it. You are now free.
They are the best exactly because of their brevity and because their first area is perfect to learn about the game's systems and world. Also those first levels are perfectly designed to accomodate any type of build, that way the player can right from the beggining learn the strengths and uses of their build.
They a perfect example how it should be done. You create your character, have at the most some 3 minutes of exposition and that's it. You are now free.
They are the best exactly because of their brevity and because their first area is perfect to learn about the game's systems and world. Also those first levels are perfectly designed to accomodate any type of build, that way the player can right from the beggining learn the strengths and uses of their build.
Falksi
Arcane
The original Deus Ex also opens superbly - enough freedom and unknown aspects so that you've plenty to discover, and plenty of fun doing so. But also enough structure, confinement & guidance so that you never feel lost. I remember finishing the first level and feeling "wow, feels like I've done loads and should be about a 3rd of the way through the game......but that was just the tutorial!" Great stuff
Funny thing is, there is a separate tutorial in EX, accessible from the main menu. It takes the form of your final field exam in the UNATCO academy.
The first mission is just that - the first mission. It has minimal handholding and gameplay instructions, because you're already expected to have familiarised yourself with the basics by means of the manual and the aforementioned tutorial mission.
i only played it on PS2 so didn't have that option.
Have just upgraded the PC and will be replaying soon enough
Good:
Morrowind. You're in the first village, do a quest or two, have a dungeon right in front of the village, can go for a swim and discover more dungeons on the islands, and then you're essentially free to go wherever you want. Go to Balmora by foot or take the silt strider. Tutorial is just a bunch of pop up windows telling you the controls, and then you're free to go. The time between character creation and being free to go out into the world to do your thing is less than a minute. Fucking great.
New Vegas. Same here, except you can do a little more stuff in the starting village. Then you can go and explore wherever you want. Actual tutorial time is about a minute, too.
BG2. I actually like Irenicus' dungeon. Yeah, it can get repetitive after the 5th time or what, but it's a really cool and interesting place to explore the first time around and you might even miss some stuff so the second time around will be fun too. It's deeply connected to the main story and even has some stuff for side quests in it (like the acorns you can get from the dryads if you help them), it's a high quality dungeon on par with the game's other dungeons.
Arcanum. Zeppelin crash, some weird religious guy tells you you're some legendary figure's reincarnation, you're confused about wtf is going on - then you can explore the crash site, find your first quest which already has a little choice to make and shows you that NPCs might lie to you, or you can leave straight away for Shrouded Hills and do the quests there - which is a great starting town with a handful of quests to do, choices to make, characters to meet. The perfect starting place before you're going to the massive capital city of Tarant.
Fallout 1. Some easy rats to beat up, then you leave straight away for the first town and are on your own. The rats take you maybe 2 minutes, then the good part of the game starts straight away. Nice.
Age of Decadence. Start in a small town where you choose your faction and do some sidequests. There are many issues I have with AoD's structure and forcing you into one specific path that often pulls you into the next step of its main quest without enough warning, but the beginning area is a nice demonstration of what the game is gonna be like and already gives you some major choices to make.
VtM: Bloodlines. You can either go through a small tutorial with Jack, who's a cool character, or... you can skip the tutorial entirely! Nice! It's a decent tutorial but if you don't wanna do a tutorial at all you can just skip it, perfect for replays.
Gothic 2. Short conversation with Xardas, then you're off to explore and find a way into the city. You're weak as fuck and will die easily if more than one wolf gangs up on you. You will die easily if you try to defeat the bandits that prey on you right on the first fucking road. None of the NPCs care about you, you're not going to get in the city unless you do some work or fork over some cash - or are good at exploring and find an alternate way in. Perfect.
Bad:
Fallout 2. Temple of Trials can be gotten over with quickly, but it's not really interesting or engaging. Literally just a tutorial area without anything interesting to offer, unlike Irenicus' dungeon.
Skyrim. It just takes so much time to sit through. Bethesda's design of openings has declined massively since Morrowind. Daggerfall had you start in a cool little dungeon straight away, Morrowind had you start in a small village straight away, Skyrim has you sit through 10 minutes of unskippable in-game cutscene before you can get started. Yawn. I wanna play a game, not watch a movie, what is this faggotry.
NWN2. Boring village, boring characters, essentially just being confronted with 500 generic fantasy cliches before you get to do anything. Yaaaawn.
Pillars of Eternity. It's a pretty banal beginning. Hey you got the shits or something, go find some herbs to stop your diarrhea. Nothing of consequence happens in this beginning scene, it's just wasting your time on trivial things. Meh.
ToEE. I love the game and its combat, but the problem with Hommlett is that it offers you very little of said combat, just some boring fetch quests of no real consequence and with no real choices attached to them. Very weak display from Troika after Arcanum's great opening area. Good thing the Co8 mod offers you a nice alternative to the fetch quests in Hommlett by offering you a small dungeon crawl quest to level you up.
Morrowind. You're in the first village, do a quest or two, have a dungeon right in front of the village, can go for a swim and discover more dungeons on the islands, and then you're essentially free to go wherever you want. Go to Balmora by foot or take the silt strider. Tutorial is just a bunch of pop up windows telling you the controls, and then you're free to go. The time between character creation and being free to go out into the world to do your thing is less than a minute. Fucking great.
New Vegas. Same here, except you can do a little more stuff in the starting village. Then you can go and explore wherever you want. Actual tutorial time is about a minute, too.
BG2. I actually like Irenicus' dungeon. Yeah, it can get repetitive after the 5th time or what, but it's a really cool and interesting place to explore the first time around and you might even miss some stuff so the second time around will be fun too. It's deeply connected to the main story and even has some stuff for side quests in it (like the acorns you can get from the dryads if you help them), it's a high quality dungeon on par with the game's other dungeons.
Arcanum. Zeppelin crash, some weird religious guy tells you you're some legendary figure's reincarnation, you're confused about wtf is going on - then you can explore the crash site, find your first quest which already has a little choice to make and shows you that NPCs might lie to you, or you can leave straight away for Shrouded Hills and do the quests there - which is a great starting town with a handful of quests to do, choices to make, characters to meet. The perfect starting place before you're going to the massive capital city of Tarant.
Fallout 1. Some easy rats to beat up, then you leave straight away for the first town and are on your own. The rats take you maybe 2 minutes, then the good part of the game starts straight away. Nice.
Age of Decadence. Start in a small town where you choose your faction and do some sidequests. There are many issues I have with AoD's structure and forcing you into one specific path that often pulls you into the next step of its main quest without enough warning, but the beginning area is a nice demonstration of what the game is gonna be like and already gives you some major choices to make.
VtM: Bloodlines. You can either go through a small tutorial with Jack, who's a cool character, or... you can skip the tutorial entirely! Nice! It's a decent tutorial but if you don't wanna do a tutorial at all you can just skip it, perfect for replays.
Gothic 2. Short conversation with Xardas, then you're off to explore and find a way into the city. You're weak as fuck and will die easily if more than one wolf gangs up on you. You will die easily if you try to defeat the bandits that prey on you right on the first fucking road. None of the NPCs care about you, you're not going to get in the city unless you do some work or fork over some cash - or are good at exploring and find an alternate way in. Perfect.
Bad:
Fallout 2. Temple of Trials can be gotten over with quickly, but it's not really interesting or engaging. Literally just a tutorial area without anything interesting to offer, unlike Irenicus' dungeon.
Skyrim. It just takes so much time to sit through. Bethesda's design of openings has declined massively since Morrowind. Daggerfall had you start in a cool little dungeon straight away, Morrowind had you start in a small village straight away, Skyrim has you sit through 10 minutes of unskippable in-game cutscene before you can get started. Yawn. I wanna play a game, not watch a movie, what is this faggotry.
NWN2. Boring village, boring characters, essentially just being confronted with 500 generic fantasy cliches before you get to do anything. Yaaaawn.
Pillars of Eternity. It's a pretty banal beginning. Hey you got the shits or something, go find some herbs to stop your diarrhea. Nothing of consequence happens in this beginning scene, it's just wasting your time on trivial things. Meh.
ToEE. I love the game and its combat, but the problem with Hommlett is that it offers you very little of said combat, just some boring fetch quests of no real consequence and with no real choices attached to them. Very weak display from Troika after Arcanum's great opening area. Good thing the Co8 mod offers you a nice alternative to the fetch quests in Hommlett by offering you a small dungeon crawl quest to level you up.
Ilintar
Novice
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2015
- Messages
- 4
Best: Betrayal at Krondor, which I’m surprised nobody mentioned here. It introduces a very well written story from the start while also giving you the freedom to explore a pretty large open- world fragment.
Exile: Escape from the Pit (aka Avernum) deserves a honorable mention for the interesting setting and again, good open-world content.
Worst: Definitely ToEE. I actually got the game due to a lot of praise for it I read while lurking on the Codex, but boy, nobody mentioned that the starting village is so horribly, uninspiringly dull. Since I’m mostly a story freak, I just shelved the game indefinitely.
And while a lot of people mention NWN2, for me the first installment was quite bad too - really generic and quite boring.
Exile: Escape from the Pit (aka Avernum) deserves a honorable mention for the interesting setting and again, good open-world content.
Worst: Definitely ToEE. I actually got the game due to a lot of praise for it I read while lurking on the Codex, but boy, nobody mentioned that the starting village is so horribly, uninspiringly dull. Since I’m mostly a story freak, I just shelved the game indefinitely.
And while a lot of people mention NWN2, for me the first installment was quite bad too - really generic and quite boring.
laclongquan
Arcane
Idiot reviewers reflect a portion of gamer base, which is idiot gamers. You can not ignore reality, as in you can not pass the opportunity to get money out of idiot gamers. This is no longer the 80s when you just make games for a few high IQ nerds. You are in the business of making games now.
Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,522
If they can miss an entire option in the starting screen, I don't think they will be sentient enough to play any half-way decent game, so no loss there
laclongquan
Arcane
We are talking about big money here~
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 3,517
NWN 2 opening actually made me quit the game, so that’s certainly among the worst.
Fallout and Morrowind had pretty good starts. Brief and not too dramatic, doesn’t get tiresome in subsequent runthroughs and just puts you in motion to find your way.
Fallout and Morrowind had pretty good starts. Brief and not too dramatic, doesn’t get tiresome in subsequent runthroughs and just puts you in motion to find your way.
Apostle Hand
Liturgist
Worse starting zone is chateau Irenicus in BG2 cuz it's so boring that it makes further playing much less enjoyable.
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