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Squeenix Final Fantasy 15

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
PC version will allow mods, apparently.

Allowing and supporting are different things, I doubt they will go beyond saying "you can have mods" but no Workshop or even basic instructions, like like GTA have mobs.

Also I doubt they allow the same impact mods have on TES/FO because I dont think they want to open the doors to allowing messing with the gameworld, since this is much a linear experience unlike TES or FO there is not much they can do, at best you see recolors and switching models because there will be no tools or documentation to go beyond that, people forget reason why TES and FO have a large modding community is because its modding goes back to Morrowind and a lot remained unchanged.
 

Ash

Arcane
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
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Squaresoft/Square Enix has "allowed" modding of the Final Fantasy series since FF7's PC release in 1998.

Here's a list of some of the stuff that's been done over the years: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...-Mods-To-Make-Final-Fantasy-Games-Even-Better

I have no idea as to the quality or significance of those mods or the article itself (edit: article is a bit shitty, but does shed some light). I play the console versions on an emulator with romhack mods, though I've wanted to check out the PC versions for a while, but the games are a bit expensive and I'm not fond of repurchasing shit I already own on other platforms, nor giving money to Square Enix which are a disgusting shadow of what Squaresoft were. I'm quite curious about FF7: New Threat PC version mod though, but the emulator-based romhacks liike FF7 hardtype are plenty good enough if not, makes the game better while being very faithful.
 
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Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
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13,512
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah, mods have always been a thing for FF PC games. Even the new re-releases.
 

Cross

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Oct 14, 2017
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They are certainly better than what we're getting nowasays, though I'm not that big of a fan, I prefer Amano's work as I said, which came before.
So you prefer something that doesn't actually exist? Because Final Fantasy games have never looked like Amano's concept art. I certainly don't remember Amano's characters having oversized heads that made up half their body size, or strapping about half a dozen superfluous belts over their clothes.
 
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LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
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Codex 2014
PC version will allow mods, apparently.

Allowing and supporting are different things, I doubt they will go beyond saying "you can have mods" but no Workshop or even basic instructions, like like GTA have mobs.

Also I doubt they allow the same impact mods have on TES/FO because I dont think they want to open the doors to allowing messing with the gameworld, since this is much a linear experience unlike TES or FO there is not much they can do, at best you see recolors and switching models because there will be no tools or documentation to go beyond that, people forget reason why TES and FO have a large modding community is because its modding goes back to Morrowind and a lot remained unchanged.

Their wording is "ongoing mod support." And the director already confirmed Steam Workshop support last year.

Of course actual capabilities of the tools are remain to be seen.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Sad but not surprised to read the game is an absolute piece of shit, according to cautiously trusted codex consensus.
Gameplay is less horrible than the previous two FFs, XII and XIII. It seems that they attempted to imitate Dragon's Dogma in many ways but failed. Thus, combat consists of a four-person party but you're stuck with the same four people and the three that aren't controlled by the player have little versatility. Those three have a few special skills they can use in combat, but it's reliant on a single party-wide bar filling up and nowhere near as interesting as DD's myriad skills. There are many enormous monsters as boss fights or optional hunts, but this is largely wasted since the game lacks the climbing and other interactivity found in Dragon's Dogma (which also means combat against smaller enemies is less interesting). The player-character (Noctis) can utilize all types of weapons but regardless you just hold down the attack button while occasionally pressing the dodge button or casting a spell. There are three elements that can be used to make spells, and items can be added for additional effects, but they all work more or less the same in combat except that certain enemies are weak to some elements and resistant to others. There is superficially a large Open World to explore, but really you simply drive the party's automobile (!) to the nearest spot on a road and then run a short distance to your destination, so there isn't much to overworld exploration. There are dungeons, but the ones you encounter in the normal course of a game (i.e. not counting post-game content) are more linear and less well-designed than those found in base Dragon's Dogma, and I'm sure that FF XV's post-game dungeons don't hold a candle to the Bitterblack Isle megadungeon added in the Dark Arisen expansion.

Certainly not anything worth playing.


I agree, though since the December patch, you can play all 4 characters (switch between them).
 

mogwaimon

Magister
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Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
The worst thing about FFXV is that it's a tiny diamond buried in a heaping mound of shit. I mean the gameplay is nothing to sneeze at, the story is a disjointed mess, and the characters are pretty much bland as all hell except for maybe Ardyn....and yet it's got that certain something which makes me care enough about it that I'm actually still disappointed about it two years later. I mean 12 was alright and 13 was pretty fucking bad but I can casually dismiss them no problem while 15 still stings. Maybe I'm just salty because it's the first FF after 7 to wank off FF6 a little and then does fuck all with it. Magic system was shit and the summons were basically a casual I win crutch. Though the summon graphics were badass as fuck...

Also I wouldn't compare it at all to Dragon's Dogma, Dogma is a far better game with far more satisfying...well, everything. Just about the only thing they have in common is the giant monsters and the open world.
 

damicore

Augur
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364
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Buenos Aires, Argentina
They are certainly better than what we're getting nowasays, though I'm not that big of a fan, I prefer Amano's work as I said, which came before.
So you prefer something that doesn't actually exist? Because Final Fantasy games have never looked like Amano's concept art. I certainly don't remember Amano's characters having oversized heads that made up half their body size, or strapping about half a dozen superfluous belts over their clothes.

You're right, as I said, i'm really sad we'll never get a game that looks like this:
dcd82e06a276d5311939eba79cc3ffdb.jpg

or one that uses character models like this one:
ffivcompa.jpg
.
Things got a little confusing during that discussion.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Messages
11,756
They are certainly better than what we're getting nowasays, though I'm not that big of a fan, I prefer Amano's work as I said, which came before.
So you prefer something that doesn't actually exist? Because Final Fantasy games have never looked like Amano's concept art. I certainly don't remember Amano's characters having oversized heads that made up half their body size, or strapping about half a dozen superfluous belts over their clothes.

You're right, as I said, i'm really sad we'll never get a game that looks like this:
dcd82e06a276d5311939eba79cc3ffdb.jpg

or one that uses character models like this one:
ffivcompa.jpg
.
Things got a little confusing during that discussion.
This reminds me that for the 20th anniversary of the Final Fantasy series, SquaresoftEnix announced that FF IV would be ported to the Nintendo DS and released a series of high-quality character artwork in keeping with both Amano's original character designs and the graphics in the original release of FF IV. However, the actual port had horrifically ugly, distorted, primitive 3D models (except for a few cutscenes which used character designs similar to those in the high-quality artwork). :argh:

ff4ds_paper01-1280x106zdvy.jpg


ff4ds_paper03-1280x104pi92.jpg


ff4ds_paper02-1280x10zzicz.jpg


ff4ds_paper08-1280x10o7erw.jpg
 
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Ash

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Messages
6,226
A codex review? Codex is overwhelmingly anti-JRPG to the point of absurdity, though it's easy to see why. Many JRPGs are shit, dead simple, repetitive, annoying, weird, what-have-you. Many have campy and/or immature writing and themes. Others have art styles off-putting to some (including myself). Others still start off very simple, and gradually introduce gameplay complexity over time, which would not be recognised by die-hard WRPG fans that expect complex character building before you've even took control of your character/s, resulting in instant dismissal. But despite all these potential boundaries, it's not universal* and there are numerous JRPG gems worth any hardcore gamer's time.
As for this game in particular, if the codex JRPG sub-forum consensus is to believed, and everything it looks to be is true, and it's yet another typical modern Square Enix game, then it's a pile of shit and nobody will want to waste their time reviewing it anyways. As far as I see it, the series has been pure garbage since 13. they even manage to fuck up their "remasters" and re-releases of the old ones.

*the one thing that probably is universal among JRPGs is childish writing. But heck JRPGs often feature stories that are a ton of fun regardless, or still have their profound moments, so fuck 'em. Everybody likes at least one of the following: Pixar, Disney, Anime or American day time Cartoons (or even so-called "adult" cartoons like American Dad which are still childish on some level), so the same childish love can apply here.
 
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Cross

Arcane
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Messages
2,983
*the one thing that probably is universal among JRPGs is childish writing. But heck JRPGs often feature stories that are a ton of fun regardless, or still have their profound moments, so fuck 'em. Everybody likes at least one of the following: Pixar, Disney, Anime or American day time Cartoons (or even so-called "adult" cartoons like American Dad which are still childish on some level), so the same childish love can apply here.
The biggest issue with writing in jRPG's isn't that it's juvenile, it's the massive disconnect between story and gameplay.

They're supposed to be these emotional coming of age stories, yet they're structured like some cross between dungeon crawlers and arcade games:
town -> dungeon -> boss fight with giant monster (rather than a personal antagonist) -> new town (or return to first town to restock) -> new dungeon -> new boss fight with giant monster (still impersonal) -> rinse and repeat until you reach the final boss fight which is, you guessed it, usually an impersonal monster who wants to destroy the world (not rule, but destroy) for some contrived reason (and if they're not already a monster, they will transform in one). You usually don't have any gameplay mechanics or agency outside of combat (which itself is usually a very abstract affair n jRPG's).

This is the very embodiment of 'show, don't tell': what the player does throughout the entire game is at odds with the story the game is trying to tell. And that's not even mentioning the numerous instances where jRPG's take control away from the player to have them do something that would never occur in gameplay, like when the heroes, that have no problem routinely defeating monsters the size of skyscrapers, are overpowered by one measly guard in a cutscene. Some disconnect between story and gameplay is always going to be unavoidable, but jRPG's seem to revel in having as much of it as possible. It's the same thing all those 'cinematic' triple-A games are guilty of.

This might not have been a big issue, if not for the fact that jRPG's are story-focused to the point of absurdity. Many of them feature several hours of cutscenes before the player is even allowed real control over their character. And at least when it comes to turn-based jRPG's, the gameplay mechanics are often quite dumbed down, like the clunky hybrid of real-time and turn-based that is the ATB system. For some reason someone at Square thought it was a brilliant idea to design a turn-based system where you're punished for thinking over your turns (which means mashing the attack button as soon as possible is often the superior strategy), thus completely defeating the point of using a turn-based system.

By contrast, in pretty much any old-school cRPG the player's actions are what make up the story: mastering all eight virtues of the Avatar, finding the water chip that saves your Vault and locating the Super Mutant bases, constructing a portal key to travel to Ravel and absorbing your previous incarnations, etc. Despite being much thinner in plotting and not as painstakingly crafted, this approach ironically leads to much more memorable video game stories.
 
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Ash

Arcane
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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
The biggest issue with writing in jRPG's isn't that it's juvenile, it's the massive disconnect between story and gameplay.

They're supposed to be these emotional coming of age stories, yet they're structured like some cross between dungeon crawlers and arcade games:
town -> dungeon -> boss fight with giant monster (rather than a personal antagonist) -> new town (or return to first town to restock) -> new dungeon -> new boss fight with giant monster (still impersonal) -> rinse and repeat until you reach the final boss fight which is, you guessed it, usually an impersonal monster who wants to destroy the world (not rule, but destroy) for some contrived reason (and if they're not already a monster, they will transform in one). You usually don't have any gameplay mechanics or agency outside of combat (which itself is usually a very abstract affair n jRPG's).

That's not universal to all JRPGs though.

This might not have been a big issue, if not for the fact that jRPG's are story-focused to the point of absurdity

Not universal, either.


By contrast, in pretty much any old-school cRPG the player's actions are what make up the story: mastering all eight virtues of the Avatar, finding the water chip that saves your Vault and locating the Super Mutant bases, constructing a portal key to travel to Ravel and absorbing your previous incarnations, etc. Despite being much thinner in plotting and not as painstakingly crafted, this approach ironically leads to much more memorable video game stories.

Stories that make better use of the advantages of the medium, are more of a player-authored experience, but not necessarily better stories outright always, as a rule; not universal.
Your wording, man.

clunky hybrid of real-time and turn-based that is the ATB system. For some reason someone at Square thought it was a brilliant idea to design a turn-based system where you're punished for thinking over your turns (which means mashing the attack button as soon as possible is often the superior strategy), thus completely defeating the point of using a turn-based system.

? Never heard of the "Wait" feature? It's optionally present in every FF ATB game I've played. Time pauses when making your selection, giving you all the time you want. It is pretty much mandatory though, as without attack spam is absolutely what it encourages otherwise. You can either instantly attack or you can clunkily scroll through menus looking for the intended item/spell. Just awful to play with Wait disabled unless you have the selection menus meticulously organised and memorised, which nobody should be expected to do. With wait enabled however the ATB system is fine and still has some unique merit.
 
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Ash

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Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,226
>casual
>plays the games with hardcore mode rom hacks

"Wait" mode is simply more in tune with the whole combat system, for reasons already mentioned. I'm usually very interested in something that increases difficulty, as long as the execution is actually gud.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
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Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
In FF12, wait is inarguably the best mode because things come at you so quickly, the game is more tightly tuned at high levels, and is balanced around having some Gambits (but is obviously beatable with none, if inconvenient) for some automation. In earlier entries, I disagree and think the games are balanced around Active.

As long as you can think and move somewhat quickly and can predict enemy moves a turn in advance you are never at a disadvantage in the 2D FF's while Active is on. If you do get overwhelmed, you can always hit the Start button and think over your next move while it's paused. This is more difficult in FF12 because I think it's the only FF to date that has a totally black screen while paused.

I am certainly biased, however, as my older brother would call me a pussy if ever I played on Wait, leaving me no option but to always use Active.
 

Ash

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As long as you can think and move somewhat quickly and can predict enemy moves a turn in advance you are never at a disadvantage in the 2D FF's while Active is on.

upwards of 10 (?*) pages/columns with four rows each filled with magic to scroll through. Bear in mind across the game you're moving magic around a lot between characters, as well as refining and drawing new magic which messes with the current arrangement, so nothing is guaranteed to ever stay in a fixed position (relevant to players locating of the particular spell in battle, memorising it). So therefore you have a continually altering large list of spells, even when using auto-arrangement. This can take a lot of time to scroll through, while attack is instantaneous..it's doable in vanilla as a means to increase challenge even though it encourages STR-focused characters and player opting to attack (which is already a problem as it is vanilla with "wait" on), but if you try that shit in any one of the hardcore hacks I've been playing, you're fucked. Hard. Even if you be an autist and meticulously optimise the lists manually for battle periodically. you just can't play FF8 Requiem in active mode for instance, but maybe I'm jus casual.

I do appreciate the idea of active though, to make it a game of skillful quick thinking, but sadly it just heavily encourages spamming of attack and STR characters.

Also, it's not all bad: even with "wait" on the time pausing only applies in the sub-menus anyways, you still have to be fast in the root menu, which is cool and makes sense in relation to how combat as a whole works, unlike active.

FF8 and FF12 are probably the most extreme examples of this problem, but it applies to every one of the games in the series I enjoy, which all have long ass dynamic magic and item lists to scroll through.

*I think the max number of magic pages was reduced to 8 in the mod I recently played so I'm not sure how many there is vanilla, but I think it was ten.

Edit: oh, you said 2D. Meh I can see the exact same problems that apply here also applying to FF6 and FF5.
 
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Hyperion

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to make it a game of skillful quick thinking, but sadly it just heavily encourages spamming of attack and STR characters.
I've been playing all of the non-FF12's on Active so long I can't do Wait anymore because of the action bar stoppages during spells. It brings boss battles to a crawling halt, and adds another layer of difficulty to the fight by making powerful spells with lengthy animations have an actual downside. This is a big concern in FF6 where spells like Ice 3 and Pearl have the exact same incantation time as a Level 1 spell, but have obscene animation times that you can use to your advantage / disadvantage on Active. Furthermore, I can't possibly imagine the sluggishness of fighting battle after battle with Mog dual wielding Pearl Lances and having to wait through a double cast of that shit (multiply this by about 36 for FF7 with that Neo Bahamut shit, and FF8's button mashing GF garbage). The *only* time Attack spam would ever be "more efficient" than casting a spell is if you have 2 or more characters' bars queued up at the same time and need to minimize scroll time. But, when you consider animation times of spells it becomes mostly insignificant because of the inevitable action queue that builds up. I'll give you a point that Active completely shits on Cyan's SwdTech, and manages to make it absolutely worthless. But, SwdTech already sucks to start. I've always felt if you can't pick out Edgar's Drill, or input BumRush in a quick time (since they're the best characters in the game) that's all on you.

I would also argue that the FF4 hardtype and 3DS version are the hardest base FF's in the series, and the only time I've had an issue with Active is against Valvalis / Barbariccia because of Kain's shitty Jump + Petrify mechanics. Even then, it just serves to make you move faster, and be more attentive to status effects.

That video of the FF8 mod was a poor example, because it had nothing to do with getting fucked by Wait V. Active. It's simply a poorly optimized fight on that mod, and if it's beatable at all, is entirely based on RNG.

so nothing is guaranteed to ever stay in a fixed position
Has there ever been an ATB-based Final Fantasy that hasn't had the 'Memory' option for your Cursor?
 

Ash

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I've been playing all of the non-FF12's on Active so long I can't do Wait anymore because of the action bar stoppages during spells. It brings boss battles to a crawling halt, and adds another layer of difficulty to the fight by making powerful spells with lengthy animations have an actual downside. This is a big concern in FF6 where spells like Ice 3 and Pearl have the exact same incantation time as a Level 1 spell, but have obscene animation times that you can use to your advantage / disadvantage on Active. Furthermore, I can't possibly imagine the sluggishness of fighting battle after battle with Mog dual wielding Pearl Lances and having to wait through a double cast of that shit (multiply this by about 36 for FF7 with that Neo Bahamut shit, and FF8's button mashing GF garbage). The *only* time Attack spam would ever be "more efficient" than casting a spell is if you have 2 or more characters' bars queued up at the same time and need to minimize scroll time. But, when you consider animation times of spells it becomes mostly insignificant because of the inevitable action queue that builds up. I'll give you a point that Active completely shits on Cyan's SwdTech, and manages to make it absolutely worthless. But, SwdTech already sucks to start. I've always felt if you can't pick out Edgar's Drill, or input BumRush in a quick time (since they're the best characters in the game) that's all on you.

Acknowledged most of this quote.

I forgot about the wait during animations. I'd argue that it's the anims themselves that by far grind things to a halt, much more so than the gauges pausing during, then waiting to refill after. Even with battle speed set to slowest they don't take particularly long to fill. Exception for FF9 where the battle speed drives me a bit nuts as you can't alter it, nor manually optimise the speed stat much.
Also good point on spells with lengthy anims sometimes being advantageous with active enabled. There is an upside to having to scroll through damn list menus at a brisk pace (this is the thing that annoys me most with active).

Has there ever been an ATB-based Final Fantasy that hasn't had the 'Memory' option for your Cursor?

Memory only applies to the last action taken...not applicable in many cases.

Also the vid was merely to highlight the extreme difficulty of that mod. tbh though I did warn of the grindyness of requiem and did recommend it before, I'm not sure if I can recommend it in hindsight. It fixes a number of things, and does demand more strategy which is much appreciated, yet at the same time it encourages so much GF spam, emulator save state spam, makes things more grindy than they need to be, and late stage bosses are a joke in how much HP they have. I'd probably still say go ahead because the game is just too easy vanilla, and the mod absolutely does have its merits, just expect some ultra grindyness, and probably give up just before the end boss fight like I did (I didn't even bother attempting it. It takes TWO HOURS to beat. That's just boring grindyness). FF7 hardtype mod though, gud, near flawless shit. The FF9 hardcore mod made by the same dude that did requiem was also a lot better; much less insane.

One more thing, maybe it is possible to beat requiem in active, but you'd sure have to be a list-navigating GOD. Enemies really don't fuck around.

I guess I am non-hardcore FF player, lel. I definitely know a lot less of the ins and out of the games than some people anyways, yet casuals don't play hardcore hacks so I guess I'm hardcore leaning but not quite there. Not that I want to be either. I like the gameplay and story but I consider neither 10/10 in any (exception maybe for FF9's story, as a story aimed at adolescents), though the music and art is always top tier stufff.
 
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Urthor

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Time to find out that Squeenix's release is going to be unoptimised af
 

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