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A simple solution that would make Bethesda games inherently better

anvi

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Hollywood is going through the same thing but it isn't because of lack of creativity. There are great people out there in the world, writing great stories, trying to sell them as screenplays. They don't get bought. Hollywood is exactly the same as the games industry in that it costs huge amounts of money to make something, nobody wants to risk it on something that is untried and tested, or too intelligent for the masses. Why spend $200m on some epic adventure movie when you can just give $150 to some digital arts company to poop out another thing about giant robots that will be number 1 for an entire summer.
 
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Hollywood is going through the same thing but it isn't because of lack of creativity. There are great people out there in the world, writing great stories, trying to sell them as screenplays. They don't get bought. Hollywood is exactly the same as the games industry in that it costs huge amounts of money to make something, nobody wants to risk it on something that is untried and tested, or too intelligent for the masses. Why spend $200m on some epic adventure movie when you can just give $150 to some digital arts company to poop out another thing about giant robots that will be number 1 for an entire summer.

The games industry is even weirder than Hollywood. Their product cost are substantially less than what movies are when it comes to blockbuster titles. There's like what, been only one video game ever that ran into the products cost of a big budget movie? Most blockbuster games seem to cost less than mid-range movies. If the numbers for GTA V & Destiny I'm seeing are right their development budgets are in the range of smaller modern Marvel movies, and that seems to be the most expensive a game that isnt an MMO gets.


You see that Dead Space 2 story from a while back about how they spent $60 million on it, and the 4 million copies sold wasn't seen as enough? So it sold something like over $200 million. In the world of movies making over $200 million on a $60 million production wouldn't be seen as a failure. And if it wasn't seen as hitting the numbers they wanted, what a movie studio wouldn't do is up the budget for the sequel in the hopes that making a horror movie even bigger would make them the money they're after.
 
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Brayko

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We need to start implementing community hands on development of games and movies. Kickstarter is not enough because it's still being developed by a handful of people however it is evolutionary and useful for raising consciousness amongst the gaming community.
 
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Hands-on community development for movies and games sounds fucking horrible. Having every idiot that throws in some money pitching their stupid ideas while you're trying to make whatever it is you're making sounds like a nightmare. And at what stage do you kill people's stupid ideas in such a process? How many completely terrible ideas get real money pumped into them before it's seen they don't work and need to be cut? Worse still is that such bad ideas don't get cut. Seems like a good way to dump a lot of money into something that would take a long time to get done and probably wouldn't be good in the end.
 
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Brayko

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Don't knock it until you've tried it. Not really a fan of cult worship of developers so why not rely on the community to weed out shitty ideas and coalesce around the good ones?
 

mogwaimon

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We need to start implementing community hands on development of games and movies. Kickstarter is not enough because it's still being developed by a handful of people however it is evolutionary and useful for raising consciousness amongst the gaming community.

How is that any different from just developing your own games or filming your own movies? Even if it's a matter of being able to create within an established IP, there are many fangames for just such a purpose.

That's not even getting into the quagmire that crowd-based profit-sharing would be, since that would be the only real difference I would think.
 
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Of course you disagree, it's your idea. But the saying isn't: Too many cooks makes the greatest broth you've ever tasted in your whole life.

You ever hear about all the stupid ideas the Massive Chalice Kickstarter community was throwing out for that game during development? It was hilarious.
 
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Brayko

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I guess people really are ass backwards and have absolutely no faith democratizing the general means of production. Like people who flocked to Hitler (Kickstarter) thinking he was some kind of good alternative to big bad Capitalism (Bethesda) when in fact he was all along just a more retarded version of capitalism than the big bad and people ended up spending far more than they received all on false promises.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The real cause of Bethesda's decline was the success that Morrowind faced, which made them unable to critically look at their design decisions and instead go down the path of increasing simplification. The success that their subsequent games enjoyed only reinforced this tendency.

Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
 

Reapa

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The real cause of Bethesda's decline was the success that Morrowind faced, which made them unable to critically look at their design decisions and instead go down the path of increasing simplification. The success that their subsequent games enjoyed only reinforced this tendency.

Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
yes, 8 attributes are just as complex as 0. especially when they only partially affect skills. it's like they don't even change the game play in any way. you can carry just as much stuff and hit just as hard with 10 str as with 100, that's why i don't even bother leveling up in morrowind.
ffs, Mastermind
 
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Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
That's generally the sort of thing that people mean when they say a video game is complex. But it's not just that Morrowind has attributes and many skills and Skyrim doesn't, it's many things compounded, for example Morrowind had no level scaling, more spells, custom spellmaking, no quest markers, no essential NPCs, no regenerating mana, more armor and weapon types, most of these things by themselves don't add much complexity, I guess, but when you put them all together...
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The real cause of Bethesda's decline was the success that Morrowind faced, which made them unable to critically look at their design decisions and instead go down the path of increasing simplification. The success that their subsequent games enjoyed only reinforced this tendency.

Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
yes, 8 attributes are just as complex as 0. especially when they only partially affect skills. it's like they don't even change the game play in any way. you can carry just as much stuff and hit just as hard with 10 str as with 100, that's why i don't even bother leveling up in morrowind.
ffs, Mastermind

Skyrim has 3 attributes, not 0, and it's easy to cherrypick two specific examples and claim one is more complex when in fact both how hard you hit and encumberance still exist in skyrim, they are just covered by different things. for example base damage in morrowind comes p much only from strength and the base weapon whereas in skyrim it also comes from perks, potions, smithing, etc.

Then you have the skills themselves where you'll be hard pressed to argue a skill in morrowind has the same level of complexity as the perk tree of each skill in skyrim. The only areas in which morrowind clearly has more complexity than skyrim are enchanting and spellmaking, which admittedly are sizable areas and place it firmly above but not significantly more complex than skyrim.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
That's generally the sort of thing that people mean when they say a video game is complex. But it's not just that Morrowind has attributes and many skills and Skyrim doesn't, it's many things compounded, for example Morrowind had no level scaling, more spells, custom spellmaking, no quest markers, no essential NPCs, no regenerating mana, more armor and weapon types, most of these things by themselves don't add much complexity, I guess, but when you put them all together...

some of those things don't add complexity at all, and there are also many things skyrim has that morrowind does not. i think morrowind wins on the balance due to enchant/spellmaking but not by much
 
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there are also many things skyrim has that morrowind does not.
Sometimes less is more.

Edit
Example: In Skyrim you have many, many more quests available for you at any time, in comparison to Morrowind, where there are fewer quests and you will discover that many factions/quests will be locked for you for a long time (or forever) as a result of your actions, so you will be playing fewer quests on average in Morrowind. But because of that, you will feel like you're making important choices when you create a character, join a faction or solve a multiple-solution quest. Besides, the quests in Morrowind have more complex individual stages (gameplay-wise) instead of the checkpoint chasing pioneered by racing games and more recently by Oblivion, or randomly generated content a la Daggerfall. In this case less is indeed more (in my opinion).
 
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Cael

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Daggerfall was big, yes there was fast travel, but you just traveled instantly which brakes the immersion.
Why they just didn't have map travel like in Fallout? Have the possibility of 'fast travel' by traveling on overland map and you would be brought back to the world on combat encounter....... and if someone would want he still can travel all the way by foot (mount makes a lot more sense for traveling big distances)
It's been over 20 years and I can't believe no one from Bethesda has thought of this (maybe they just didn't want it as the worlds later built were nothing like the size of Daggerfall)

It's a way better system of fast travel, because you just don't magicaly appear in other place, but you see your characters moving across the world, which helps the immersion, it just worked so well in Fallout, I can't believe no other games apart from jrpgs does it.
You have never played Arena, the original Elder Scrolls, I take it?

They DID have a map based fast travel mechanic. They deliberately got rid of it in subsequent incarnations of the game.
 

Reapa

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The real cause of Bethesda's decline was the success that Morrowind faced, which made them unable to critically look at their design decisions and instead go down the path of increasing simplification. The success that their subsequent games enjoyed only reinforced this tendency.

Morrowind isn't significantly more complex than Skyrim. It just gives the illusion that it is because of the attributes and the larger number of skills but the skills themselves are very shallow, often just a number that affects one or two actions. Same with daggerfall.
yes, 8 attributes are just as complex as 0. especially when they only partially affect skills. it's like they don't even change the game play in any way. you can carry just as much stuff and hit just as hard with 10 str as with 100, that's why i don't even bother leveling up in morrowind.
ffs, Mastermind

Skyrim has 3 attributes, not 0, and it's easy to cherrypick two specific examples and claim one is more complex when in fact both how hard you hit and encumberance still exist in skyrim, they are just covered by different things. for example base damage in morrowind comes p much only from strength and the base weapon whereas in skyrim it also comes from perks, potions, smithing, etc.

Then you have the skills themselves where you'll be hard pressed to argue a skill in morrowind has the same level of complexity as the perk tree of each skill in skyrim. The only areas in which morrowind clearly has more complexity than skyrim are enchanting and spellmaking, which admittedly are sizable areas and place it firmly above but not significantly more complex than skyrim.

you're confusing health, stamina and mana with attributes like strength, agility, speed, intelligence, willpower, personality, luck and endurance like some kind of retard. you're supposed to be a bethestard not a full retard and at least know something about bethesda games.
morrowind also had health, stamina and mana. i was clearly talking about attributes, not health, mana and stamina bars. and before you start arguing the stamina bar also raises max carry weight, realize it doesn't do anything else besides that. and the other 2 are just bars. there are no skills that require any values of these bars. i'm surprised you didn't also count armor value and max carry weight as attributes with your idiotic approach.

i don't think you're giving the spell making and enchanting enough credit. the fact that they can affect attributes does make the game a lot more complex than skyrim. they also add quite a bit of decision making when you have to weight what you'd rather carry around with you. an enchanted breastplate that increases your strength for faster running and harder hitting or speed for faster running and faster hitting or personality for easier persuasion/taunt or luck to be harder to hit, get better random loot like better scrolls and soul gems... and all this in addition to the standard enchants or even a whole list of spells that didn't even make it to skyrim like night eye, levitate, chameleon, spell absorbtion... instead of telling you what you can enchant on which piece of equipment morrowind gave you the choice and a max capacity. skyrim tells you what to enchant on which piece of equipment like it was hard to chose with all the available effects like more dmg, more regen, more resistance. and forget about active and passive enchants. skyrim only has passives. because anything else would blow people's minds.
do i need to compare spell making with no spell making? nah, i'm just gonna hope a few of your brain cells still communicate with each other enough to draw a difference between anything and nothing. i will however emphasize that without any attributes, skyrim has no way of increasing spell damage. there's base spell damage and other than some unique gear which came with a dlc, that's it.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
you're confusing health, stamina and mana with attributes like strength, agility, speed, intelligence, willpower, personality, luck and endurance like some kind of retard. you're supposed to be a bethestard not a full retard and at least know something about bethesda games.

No, I'm not. You seem to not even understand the basics of what constitutes an attribute... like a retard. You have a vague intuitive understanding, like you probably know "strength" is an attribute when you see it, but you don't see the actual point of the attributes (which is to shape your character build).

morrowind also had health, stamina and mana. i was clearly talking about attributes, not health, mana and stamina bars. and before you start arguing the stamina bar also raises max carry weight, realize it doesn't do anything else besides that. and the other 2 are just bars. there are no skills that require any values of these bars. i'm surprised you didn't also count armor value and max carry weight as attributes with your idiotic approach.

Yes, morrowind had health, stamina and mana but they were not raised directly like in Skyrim and in fact you would eventually max all of them (except health, depending on how bad you fail at understanding morrowind's dumbshit leveling system). They are different in skyrim not just (or even primarily because) stamina raises endurance but because they, along with the perks, help shape your character's focus.

i don't think you're giving the spell making and enchanting enough credit.

I'm giving them more credit than the character system (where skyrim's is both more complex and better designed), i think that's more than enough. expecially since morrowind pretty much forces you to dual as a mage of some sort to actually access that complexity. if you don't want to touch the magic aspect your character is considerably dumber and more shallow, both in terms of stats and what you can actually do in the world. In fact the only complexity a pure morrowind warrior/thief has is... the use of already enchanted items you can find.

nah, i'm just gonna hope a few of your brain cells still communicate with each other enough to draw a difference between anything and nothing. i will however emphasize that without any attributes, skyrim has no way of increasing spell damage. there's base spell damage and other than some unique gear which came with a dlc, that's it.

Listen you little shit, I've put thousands of hours into morrowind, no way a little cunt like you gets to talk like this to me, especially when you're fucking clueless. You are in fact wrong on both counts, Skyrim still has attributes in the background and you CAN increase spell damage in vanilla skyrim, no unique dlc gear required.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Fortify_Destruction_(Skyrim)

Spoilers: the attribute system for morrowind is still in skyrim, it's just in the background (like the spellmaking). The same system is used in Skyrim, Toddler just removed fun shit like spellmaking, presumably to cater to people of your low intellectual capacity.

Get on your fucking knees, apologize for the way you talked to me, go actually learn how both games work and then you'll have a knowledge base suitable for actually debating either game with someone of my vastly superior knowledge and intellect.

edit: come to think of it how DID you increase spell damage in morrowind? Other than setting the base damage skills and attributes in morrowind had no effect on its damage. you could lower resistances into the negative, but that has dick to do with attributes. it's actually only skyrim that lets you boost base spell damage via alchemy
 
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Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
there are also many things skyrim has that morrowind does not.
Sometimes less is more.

Edit
Example: In Skyrim you have many, many more quests available for you at any time, in comparison to Morrowind, where there are fewer quests and you will discover that many factions/quests will be locked for you for a long time (or forever) as a result of your actions, so you will be playing fewer quests on average in Morrowind. But because of that, you will feel like you're making important choices when you create a character, join a faction or solve a multiple-solution quest. Besides, the quests in Morrowind have more complex individual stages (gameplay-wise) instead of the checkpoint chasing pioneered by racing games and more recently by Oblivion, or randomly generated content a la Daggerfall. In this case less is indeed more (in my opinion).

I think this is grossly overstated. In morrowind you could only join 1/3 great houses, and if you took the "wrong" turn in the fighters guild quest line you could get locked out of the thieves guild. but morrowind had a ton of other factions and you could join and become leader of nearly all of them. Not that different from skyrim. objectives were harder to find in morrowind because there was no quest compass but the quests themselves were just seek and destroy or fetch quests. occasionally there would be a twist (like therana asking you to try out her skirt then attacking you for wearing it) but even those were pretty rare.
 

Machocruz

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My issue with post-Morrowind was always how they treated content, not so much complexity, although there is some overlap with the two. Number one being the way they chose to handle items. Good stuff to find and purloin as a thief in MW, not so in Oblivion where good merchant items don't exist in the physical space of the shop, and leveled items so you won't find anything good/better tucked away in the world. When I quickly realized this was the case, it utterly deflated any enjoyment I was prepared to have with the game. Their whole spell game is number two. Not just spellmaking, but the lack of spells that were awesome in MW. You have to be a special kind of retarded to design a fantasy game world in such a way that you have to excise levitation, as if there is anything more majestic you could be doing with magic in an open worldgame. Also the lack of teleportation spells. Nothing cool about being able to teleport, amirite?
 

Reapa

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you're confusing health, stamina and mana with attributes like strength, agility, speed, intelligence, willpower, personality, luck and endurance like some kind of retard. you're supposed to be a bethestard not a full retard and at least know something about bethesda games.

No, I'm not. You seem to not even understand the basics of what constitutes an attribute... like a retard. You have a vague intuitive understanding, like you probably know "strength" is an attribute when you see it, but you don't see the actual point of the attributes (which is to shape your character build).

morrowind also had health, stamina and mana. i was clearly talking about attributes, not health, mana and stamina bars. and before you start arguing the stamina bar also raises max carry weight, realize it doesn't do anything else besides that. and the other 2 are just bars. there are no skills that require any values of these bars. i'm surprised you didn't also count armor value and max carry weight as attributes with your idiotic approach.

Yes, morrowind had health, stamina and mana but they were not raised directly like in Skyrim and in fact you would eventually max all of them (except health, depending on how bad you fail at understanding morrowind's dumbshit leveling system). They are different in skyrim not just (or even primarily because) stamina raises endurance but because they, along with the perks, help shape your character's focus.

i don't think you're giving the spell making and enchanting enough credit.

I'm giving them more credit than the character system (where skyrim's is both more complex and better designed), i think that's more than enough. expecially since morrowind pretty much forces you to dual as a mage of some sort to actually access that complexity. if you don't want to touch the magic aspect your character is considerably dumber and more shallow, both in terms of stats and what you can actually do in the world. In fact the only complexity a pure morrowind warrior/thief has is... the use of already enchanted items you can find.

nah, i'm just gonna hope a few of your brain cells still communicate with each other enough to draw a difference between anything and nothing. i will however emphasize that without any attributes, skyrim has no way of increasing spell damage. there's base spell damage and other than some unique gear which came with a dlc, that's it.

Listen you little shit, I've put thousands of hours into morrowind, no way a little cunt like you gets to talk like this to me, especially when you're fucking clueless. You are in fact wrong on both counts, Skyrim still has attributes in the background and you CAN increase spell damage in vanilla skyrim, no unique dlc gear required.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Fortify_Destruction_(Skyrim)

Spoilers: the attribute system for morrowind is still in skyrim, it's just in the background (like the spellmaking). The same system is used in Skyrim, Toddler just removed fun shit like spellmaking, presumably to cater to people of your low intellectual capacity.

Get on your fucking knees, apologize for the way you talked to me, go actually learn how both games work and then you'll have a knowledge base suitable for actually debating either game with someone of my vastly superior knowledge and intellect.

edit: come to think of it how DID you increase spell damage in morrowind? Other than setting the base damage skills and attributes in morrowind had no effect on its damage. you could lower resistances into the negative, but that has dick to do with attributes. it's actually only skyrim that lets you boost base spell damage via alchemy
what constitutes an attribute is skill dependency on said attribute. if this wasn't yet postulated by anyone, i'm doing it now. the health bar is not an attribute no mater how you chose to look at it to make some idiotic argument about skyrim having more complex mechanics than morrowind. not to mention that 3 is still much lower than 8. can you into basic maths? or does basic number comparison challenge you mentally?
what's this esoteric bullshit about character shape? your mushrooms don't make good arguments.
game with magic forces you to use magic in order to experience the magic, news at 11.
again, the combination of attributes and skills that are based on them is of course more complex than skills alone.
what? you can raise spell damage with potions and that's your argument? in morrowind you could chose the spell damage you wanted to do in the spell maker. have you even played morrowind or are you some crazy cat lady who just likes to play pretend on the codex?
morrowind actually let you chose the magnitude of a spell and the area of effect and even the fucking duration and you had to make a decision based on how much mana you wanted to spend on casting the spell you were making. skyrim just gives you a spell with a base damage and that's it. clearly skyrim is more complex. god damn you're a fucking moron!
where the fuck do you get your delusions from? where is speed in skyrim? where is luck in skyrim? where is strength in skyrim? just saying they are there does not make it so. i need to see my character getting faster, hitting harder, getting more lucky to believe your bullshit. agility? how would morrowind's agility work in a game with no hit rolls???? do you even know what i'm talking about or are you hearing about these things for the first time in your life? you do know in skyrim they removed the random element of morrowind's combat, don't you? so how the fuck does skyrim have the same attributes morrowind had but hidden, you sick sun of a bitch?
 

Walty Warner

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My issue with post-Morrowind was always how they treated content, not so much complexity, although there is some overlap with the two. Number one being the way they chose to handle items. Good stuff to find and purloin as a thief in MW, not so in Oblivion where good merchant items don't exist in the physical space of the shop, and leveled items so you won't find anything good/better tucked away in the world. When I quickly realized this was the case, it utterly deflated any enjoyment I was prepared to have with the game. Their whole spell game is number two. Not just spellmaking, but the lack of spells that were awesome in MW. You have to be a special kind of retarded to design a fantasy game world in such a way that you have to excise levitation, as if there is anything more majestic you could be doing with magic in an open worldgame. Also the lack of teleportation spells. Nothing cool about being able to teleport, amirite?
They removed levitation because they wanted to make the cities more detailed. So they made them separate levels entirely. There are mods that merge the cities into the worldspace and one thing you'll notice is it introduces a lot of bugs (like objects and npcs disappearing) and has a big impact on framerate. By comparison in Morrowind cities were really small and apart from Vivec tended to have like 10 people in them wandering around. And they just walked back and forth in a set pattern as opposed to in Oblivion/Skyrim where they had a schedule and left their homes.

In terms of teleportation I'm fairly certain they cut it because they saw it as redundant due to the inclusion of fast travel.
 
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Daggerfall was big, yes there was fast travel, but you just traveled instantly which brakes the immersion.
Why they just didn't have map travel like in Fallout? Have the possibility of 'fast travel' by traveling on overland map and you would be brought back to the world on combat encounter....... and if someone would want he still can travel all the way by foot (mount makes a lot more sense for traveling big distances)
It's been over 20 years and I can't believe no one from Bethesda has thought of this (maybe they just didn't want it as the worlds later built were nothing like the size of Daggerfall)

It's a way better system of fast travel, because you just don't magicaly appear in other place, but you see your characters moving across the world, which helps the immersion, it just worked so well in Fallout, I can't believe no other games apart from jrpgs does it.
In Daggerfall you travelled long distance by bringing up the world map. You had to first be outside to use the world map--can't in a dungeon. You clicked somewher and then the travel window pops up. You had to select "on foot" or "by horse" or "by ship". Going on foot was slowest (hence riskiest). It costed money to stay at inns. Having a horse or ship reduced cost. The game simulated passage of time, so if you're sick, you might die or it might take longer. Additionally, you could be attacked by enemies while resting or while traveling on the world map. So really I always felt Daggerfall's travel was best because while it was instant it also tried to actually simulate it. That's what made it immersive for me. I liked the thousands of towns and NPCs. Even though they weren't realistic, it just felt more immersive to me than Morrowind. Morrowind also didn't attempt to simulate fast travel. It was only available in towns though--but the map is much smaller.

I don't tend to like fast travel JUST for convenience. That's a copout. They just want to skip it. For example, as a kid, I remmber liking Simon's Quest despite repetitive travel. I also liked Zelda.

Nostaliga (for years I couldn't remember its name):
 
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