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A good RPG cannot be short

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
And? He probably knows the game inside out, built his characters and party expertly and more. Look at the "blind" LPs where the player has no foreknowledge of the game. Even better, look at players who play it as their first CRPG or first RTWP game, etc.. That number will go way up.

I mean technically Morrowind can be beat in 5 minutes. Does that mean it's really a 5 minute game and not a 100+ hour one? :)

These aren't speed runs and there's no exploits or foreknowledge that allows you to avoid stuff in MotB like Morrowind.

I can run morrowind.exe on my Grandmother's laptop and her gametime would be to the end of her natural life. Does that make Morrowind a game that takes a lifetime to complete? Obviously we should assume a reasonable skilled person who is intent on finishing content (even if they do sidequests) rather than someone incompetent or who just idles around.

2 recorded LPs is much better evidence than people making up times post-facto. One is evidence, the other is just a guess, since no one is playing with a stopwatch. And these LPs are taking tons of time talking to the audience, you'd easily have the first one as sub 10 hours without that.

The best evidence is the fact that a bunch of angry fans didn't beat down Obsidian's door for releasing an expansion pack that ended up only being half the time they promised. A lot of people were livid with Black Isle because Heart of Winter was "only" 10-15 hours long. No way would they ever release an expansion pack that short ever again.

Now that I think about it, in 2007 MotB probably had an extra 5 hours worth of load times. I guess if you count that it adds up?
 

Deleted Member 16721

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Please.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=6517

  • Main Story
    17½ Hours
  • Main + Extras
    26 Hours
  • Completionist
    31 Hours
  • All Styles
    25½ Hours
Based on 21 entries. That's more evidence than one guy who probably completed the game several times and knows every minute detail of it going in beforehand.

I always felt like IWD was too short though. I spent 100 with BG and probably half that or less with IWD. Didn't finish the expansion stuff yet though, but it felt a lot shorter than BG.
 

DeepOcean

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I like good games, if they impress me, I'm all in, the length is a non issue, like both big and small games, there isn't an optimal maximum size but there is indeed a minimum size, to me, the minimum an RPG can go is on the 10 to 15hs mark, anything lower than that and there won't be enough time to do setup the world on a proper way and you will finish it before you even know what is going on.

I would prefer much more if PoE offered something like 10 quests at the level of Raedric's Hold than inundated me with trash mobs but that isn't to say this is an optimal choice because there is space for bigger games. Short RPGs tend to focus more on content and bigger RPGs focus more on simulating worlds, both are pretty fun approaches, I certainly wouldn't like 100% of RPGs going one way or the other.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
Please.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=6517

  • Main Story
    17½ Hours
  • Main + Extras
    26 Hours
  • Completionist
    31 Hours
  • All Styles
    25½ Hours
Based on 21 entries. That's more evidence than one guy who probably completed the game several times and knows every minute detail of it going in beforehand.

I always felt like IWD was too short though. I spent 100 with BG and probably half that or less with IWD. Didn't finish the expansion stuff yet though, but it felt a lot shorter than BG.

Again, do you actually think there are 14 hours difference between main quests and main quests + all side content in MotB? That should make these numbers automatically suspect.

It's a small sample size of self-reported numbers conjured up after the fact vs. 2 actual timed playthroughs. And once again, LPers always spend tons of time talking about irrelevant bullshit. If they can do main quest + some side quests in well under 15 hours, anything that says a game should be at 26-31 hours should be viewed with suspicion. I'll give you a few extra hours players might spend backtracking through areas for stuff or talking to NPCs to see if they have new dialog, but even then we're at 20 max.
 
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Roguey

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It's a small sample size of self-reported numbers conjured up after the fact vs. 2 actual timed playthroughs. And once again, LPers always spend tons of time talking about irrelevant bullshit. If they can do main quest + some side quests in well under 15 hours, anything that says a game should be at 26-31 hours should be viewed with suspicion. I'll give you a few extra hours players might spend backtracking through areas for stuff or talking to NPCs to see if they have new dialog, but even then we're at 20 max.
If that's how you want to play it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cNHAdJxmuE&list=PL2mVwWymK5NNAuayyjd2ok8abUN-7NSp7
30 videos, each one is an hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h01P9A_hodA&list=PL95B93404A73CBB13
63 videos, each one is 20-30 minutes.

How long it takes to complete a RPG varies a lot, considering all the optional-and-mandatory reading/inventory/shopping/level-up decisions involved.
 
Joined
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Messages
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We were talking about how much time it takes to get through content, not how much time can be spent twiddling thumbs (which, as I've mentioned, LPs tend to do). I flat out stated that there are people who are slow and they'll skew any average (since there's a potential infinite amount of time to waste, yet a hard minimum of how much quicker than average a player can be). The fact that there exists people who can take 40 hours to finish a game that has max 20 hours of content does not make it a game that has 20-40 hours of content, it remains a game that is 10-20 hours.

Even according to your Obsidian quote the game only offers 20-25 hours, and that's a marketing number with an incentive to be inflated a bit. Then there's this:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/n...-story-classes-and-enhancements/1100-6169920/

Kevin Saunders: George Ziets is Mask of the Betrayer's creative lead and the architect of our story and characters. The story is brilliant--I think it will be Obsidian's best yet. Mask of the Betrayer (NX1) is shorter than the NWN2 campaign (we're targeting 15 to 20 hours of gameplay), but it will definitely be an epic and memorable experience. I occupy the role of lead designer but fortunately didn't get in George's way too much.

If they targetted 15-20 hours but somehow made it 40, then I guess it's NWN2 all over again?
 
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Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Not sure why you'd try to argue this. People play games at different speeds. The examples I gave were based on 21 entries. I'd say that's a decent sample size and the best evidence we have so far.

The more knowledge you have of the game and the faster you play will skew it to lower numbers. But that's also an outlier.

You're trying to make game time an objective thing but it's not. The best you can do is take the average of as many gamers as you can find, and that is what I showed you.

The reason it can't be objective is because people read at different speeds for example. There are too many factors in play to just say "this game has 10 hours of content, period." It varies.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
How long it takes to complete a RPG varies a lot, considering all the optional-and-mandatory reading/inventory/shopping/level-up decisions involved.

Sho' does. Also what I mentioned is a big factor - your knowledge of the game. Someone playing Morrowind now for the first time would be utterly lost a lot of times, but if you played and beat the game 5 times then you already know everywhere to go, thus eliminating a lot of hours of game that is "natural" to a new player with no foreknowledge of the game.
 
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Hours of content is a fairly static number for a game like MotB because there are no ways to skip areas, sequence break, or otherwise finish areas significantly faster (ignoring the possibility of literal speed running past encounters). Variability comes from sidequests and sidequest-like actions (fully exploring dialog trees). Stuff like back tracking or wandering around aimlessly can't reasonably be considered game content just because someone in the world is retarded enough to need to do it constantly.

Morrowind is obviously entirely different since it's a highly non-linear and open world. It in no way has a hard minimum the way MotB has, it's very easy to sequence break. But to put my argument another way, is vanilla Morrowind today a longer game than vanilla Morrowind 15 years ago? Because if you sampled the average consoletard who just got finished playing Skyrim with quest markers, they'd probably be completely lost and take hundreds more hours. Yet Morrowind the game is exactly the same length, it hasn't changed. Therefore we should conclude that outright poor execution doesn't make games longer. Content hours is defined by reasonably good execution for a first timer.
 

Roguey

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Hours of content is a fairly static number for a game like MotB because there are no ways to skip areas, sequence break, or otherwise finish areas significantly faster (ignoring the possibility of literal speed running past encounters). Variability comes from sidequests and sidequest-like actions (fully exploring dialog trees). Stuff like back tracking or wandering around aimlessly can't reasonably be considered game content just because someone in the world is retarded enough to need to do it constantly.
How long it takes to read and how long it takes to kill monsters is going to vary from player to player. Some people are going to read every last word, including all the flavor text on items, others are going to skip right through that and rely on skimming the quest journal to find out what to do. Some people are going to create characters and make tactical decisions that result in creatures dying in seconds, others are going to do moderately well or even struggle for minutes.
 
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How long it takes to read and how long it takes to kill monsters is going to vary from player to player. Some people are going to read every last word, including all the flavor text on items, others are going to skip right through that and rely on skimming the quest journal to find out what to do. Some people are going to create characters and make tactical decisions that result in creatures dying in seconds, others are going to do moderately well or even struggle for minutes.

And some players will be 8 year olds playing their first D&D game with a reading WPM of 5. Do we consider their playtimes in figuring how long the game is?

The Obsidian statement you gave said a range of 20-25. That's an average 22.5 +/- ~10%. Clearly Obsidian had in mind a much narrower range than what you think. I said 10-15 and conceded that 10-20 would be a fair number as well. I think that's reasonable, given what Obsidian said was in a marketing statement meant to entice players and that my 10 hour mark wasn't for finishing all sidequest content. Certainly if they thought they could claim 25-30 hours they would have done so, so the fact that they did not means the game can't possibly be considered that long.
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I'm reappearing in this thread only because I've realized that a challenger has appeared to contend with "What is an RPG?".

And that is: "How does one determine the true length of an RPG?". The original contention, which was that short RPGs can't be great RPGs, doesn't even matter anymore. We have a new fundamental unanswerable of the great RPG aether on our hands, here.

Since I'm clearly the discoverer of this critically important unanswerable, all royalties are payable to my savings account.
 

bminorkey

Guest
undertale

fight me

I don't understand why it would be considered a good RPG. Explain, because I don't see it.

I'll submit Brogue (if that even counts) as my option, though we're still waiting on some definitions.

Look That Damn "Dog", I read your name, I can see the signs. This is how it all begins. I could point out that it has an interesting way of making its combat system interact with the game world, a lot of C&C and branching choices, rewards exploration, etc. But you'll be fixated on the fact that it has cutesy Homestuck-like graphics and appeals to tumblr furries. You'll start spinning your wheels about why everything I listed is in fact "bad RPG mechanics" and respond with some bullet point list telling me why my daddy made a mistake, because entertaining the idea that you and tumblr furries both agree about anything at all goes against the survival instinct of what limited testosterone you had left when you made the enlightened act of registering an account on this site.

But deep inside your Asperger's syndrome will tingle (and don't tell me you don't have Asperger's, it rubbed off on you the moment you entered this site) and you'll slowly but surely feel a need to question the narrative, just as your mother questioned your birth. That's how it all begins. First you might play Undertale. Then you might even like, or not dislike it. But it will leave an impression. You see, one lonely night you'll type "www.tumblr.com" into your browser window, maybe just take a peek. Of course, you'll immediately shut down your computer horrified by your actions. But the lingering doubts will remain. And every night you'll wake up, entering www.tumblr.com for just a little longer. You'll start reading blogs, maybe you find something you associate with. Soon enough you'll be writing your own tumblog. It will start innocently enough, arguing with the tumblr feminists and praising communism, like your uncle taught you when he took you into that closet. Then you'll expand your operation and start posting cat pictures. And dog pictures. And wolf pictures, oh look they are so cute.

You'll get a lot of likes (or "reblogs" as they are called). Your self esteem will soar for the first time since the boy you liked got a loogie on your desk back in 7th grade. You'll start getting into it, reblogging other people's stuff, "liking" their social justice poetry, and so on. Then the fanart phase starts. You start innocently at first, "oh hey guys just practicing my art here haha," and people will love it. Your following will grow. You'll start getting feedback and reblogs. And you'll notice that your fanart that garners the most positive feedback is the type that exhibits a slightly anthropomorphic style like kittens in coats or like a big lizard breathing fire. And you'll change your style to suit. Soon enough your cats will have glasses and two feet and your lizards will have opposable thumbs. You'll start shipping them together and researching anatomy, such as how do lizard dicks look like. That's when the transformation will be complete.

But that won't even be your final form, That Damn Dog. You'll remember your roots. You'll come back here and try and convert all your buddies. We have like 19 trannies here, did you know that, That Damn Dog? This is how they come to be. This is what's going to become of you. Would you like that? I didn't think so. But it's gonna happen. Don't try to stop it. I already did. I was too late. We were all too late.

Hopw roewur ne, That Damn Dog, may furry Jesus bless your soul.
 
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Sykar

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Name me one of the great RPGs which does not have padding due to excessive amount of trash combat. Imho I am fine with RPGs lasting 10-25 hours of the content is of high quality. I can overlook padding via trash combat if the rest is decent enough but it still annoys and bores me quite a bit if I have to suffer through it.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Since the thread turned into autism central I propose a new topic.

A good poster can never be Blaine. Dicsuss!!1
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
I don’t know why a theoretical RPG that could reasonably be ran through in around 45 minutes and whose reactive permutations would grant a few reasonably different playthroughs couldn’t be good.
 
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fantadomat

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Ok,anything beneath 20 hours can't be good rpg!

Also it is offensive that my glorious post wasn't put as the thread opener.....uhhhh jewish work.
 

Roguey

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The Obsidian statement you gave said a range of 20-25. That's an average 22.5 +/- ~10%. Clearly Obsidian had in mind a much narrower range than what you think. I said 10-15 and conceded that 10-20 would be a fair number as well. I think that's reasonable, given what Obsidian said was in a marketing statement meant to entice players and that my 10 hour mark wasn't for finishing all sidequest content. Certainly if they thought they could claim 25-30 hours they would have done so, so the fact that they did not means the game can't possibly be considered that long.

95258-neverwinter-nights-2-mask-of-the-betrayer-windows-back-cover.jpg


They would have been dinged for false advertising if that first statement weren't true. They're going to err on the side of being too cautious about game length, not oversell it. :M
 

Cael

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Isn't Fallout 2 a 30-min game, if you get right down to it? Beeline Navarro, then San Fran, then talk your way through the oil rig. Done and dusted.
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Isn't Fallout 2 a 30-min game, if you get right down to it? Beeline Navarro, then San Fran, then talk your way through the oil rig. Done and dusted.

It has content for 20-30 hours for one playthrough and the reactivity to at least double that. That is, if you don't rush (i.e. actually read the dialogs and keep a normal pace).
 

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