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Visual immersion in RPG UIs - should RPGs hide numbers?

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IHaveHugeNick

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Lmao at this thread. I know gamurs love to fantasize that gaming is extremely complicated and requires a superior intellect. But some of the jokers here acting as if picking a higher number between 14 and 13 is some advanced level math that only supremely refined and sophisticated mind can manage, now that's some next level of delusion. I hate to break it down to you, but a trained ape can do that. And if you find it challenging to perform a task that monkey can do in its sleep,, then you're probably an idiot.

I can't imagine a serious RPG where every bit of underlying numbers have been hidden from the player, and replaced with cool geometrical shapes. That'd remove half of the fun that comes from figuring things out.

But there's a difference between picking which one of two swords is better by comparing 3-4 relevant modifiers, and picking whether 98% hit chance is better than 99%. The first one requires analysis and thought, the second you can do automatically as long as you're above the age of 10, which apparently isn't all Codexers. And those sort of simpler numbers can definitely be hidden and replaced with some other system, because there really isn't any point of showing them in a first place.

And in terms of something like lockpicking I would actually prefer it, it makes opening the chests more of a gamble instead of a simple calculation, and takes a bit of a boredom out of what is usually a pretty boring part of gameplay. Nobody ever had a raging boner when opening a chest.
 

Sigourn

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And even in games like Underrail or Baldur's Gate you can still visualize or simplify some of the stats in the game. Do I really need to see that my 5 or 6 different saving throws are 6, 7, 7, 6, 9 ? A system like Useless, Terrible, Poor, Decent, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Incredible, Legendary would be better to look at. That's already kind of in Planescape if you hover over the character stat numbers (and, coincidentally, is one of the awesomest things I've seen on a D&D char sheet. Learning that my Intelligence of 25 basically put me among the most intelligent, Godlike beings in the entire multiverse, was much cooler than just seeing a 25. And some of the other stats off the top off my head this would work with as well. Thief skills, etc..

IMO the bad thing about the dicerolls in Baldur's Gate was that, if anything, they were useful to see what you needed to roll to hit an enemy. For that matter, I'd rather have a Fallout-like system: you hover your cursor over the enemy, and you get their Armor Class and a % chance of hit. Would be nice to also see the chance that enemy has to hit the current character you've selected. If you give me that, I've basically have no use for dicerolls in the console anymore.

I'm all in for stats and numbers on cRPGs. But if I can give the exact same gamepay to the player, I will try to make it so that he doesn't need to run math. Not everyone loves math, regardless of whether you are good at it or not. I'd rather have a % chance pop up as opposed to reading the console (hmmm, 12 roll wasn't enough to hit me... 15 roll wasn't either... oh oh there it goes, a 18 roll! Now just let me compare the dice roll to the AC of my Ranger and see what should the enemy roll to hit me).
 

Fenix

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Why is it better if you can't see them?

Because world becomes less abstract and math-based.
If you can see creature's or your own HP - which is pure abstraction - then explain how, like it was done in System Shock 2.
Really, don't need to turn game into Exel RPG, we have Eve Online for that.
 

FeelTheRads

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Yeah, I still can't see how that's better.

Less abstract? Wtf? A health-bar is far more abstract than numbers. There's nothing abstract about a number representing a value. That's what they fucking do. If the number is still behind the scenes, then using something else to represent that number is what makes it abstract.
Especially if the actual number behind that health-bar changes with level-up/items/etc. Then you'll have the same bar representing different amounts throughout the game. That's fucking abstract.

How does that help? Is this an immershun thing or what?
Seriously, seeing HP makes it an Excel RPG?

Again, I don't know if it's relevant in Elex, but seeing your or the enemy's hit-points is certainly important in many games. As in, being able to actually calculate the risk involved in doing an action instead of just guessing based on the length of a bar.
I could see a point for it that it makes it more risky and requires you to be more careful, but all I see from the defenders of the health-bar is: waah waaah excel, numbers are evil, let's replace them because no idea but lets just

Also, there's no need to turn every game into Kindergarden The RPG. We have most of the games doing that.
So, fuck you off with your retarded Excel comparisons. There's not enough Excel RPGs to complain that there are too many. On the other hand we're swimming in games that try to hide numbers, not for ANY other reason than to "streamline" and make it easy on the lowest common denominator. No game ever hid numbers with the intention to make it harder.
 
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Fenix

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A health-bar is far more abstract than numbers.

You don't understand right? Health bar is a simple representation of your overall health condition, and it's abstractive too.
While NUMBERS are evem MORE abstractive, and when you playing game that heavy on math, it overshadow everything else, and while it looks natural for isometric turn-based games, for 3D it's bad.
And even roguelikes can benefit from that.
 

ciox

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So hardcore number-based RPGs all need lifebars to be cool like modern games Bioshock, meanwhile the interface of the latest popular normie 3d first person shooter looks like:

LLTHjI8.jpg


With clear numbers for your upgradeable health and armor, and obviously for ammo.
 

Fenix

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Are you retarded? I make a specific note about it.

Also, to avoid misunderstanding.
I believe that сertain games, like said ToME4 e.g. require math.
But some games can benefit greatly from hiding excessive math from player, and for the first hand it is a 3D games like Elex.
Also, I know that e.g. Elona have some of its math hidden, and while Elona is heavy on math and it's not a big part of math that hidden, it sertainly feels good when you have hidden stats that not clearly explained.
 

wyes gull

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There's nothing wrong with games that use numbers making the player aware of it. There is however something dreadfully wrong with having those numbers pop up all over the place ruining the fucking scenery. Fallout 1/2 already invented the wheel; stop trying to redesign it and stick that shit in a box in a corner where it belongs. When I'm looking at the game world I want to see the game world, not floating health bars, not the character's names and not some fucking size 60 red Verdana telling me I did X amount of damage. GET FUCKED AND GO IN THE CORNER. :argh:

Decent GUIs are hard to find. This shit is everywhere now, even in action games. I'd love to buy the guy that designed the one in Far Cry 2 a beer so I could commiserate in good company.
 

Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Rather than numbers vs no numbers I think the more important factor is how the game conveys the marginal effect of selected action.
It doesn't matter if the description says +3 or slightly more if the player has no idea what it does in practice. This feels particularly infuriating when you have to do a irreversible choice blindly. One solution to this could be adding some sort of demo mode on levelup screens or character creation.

Fallout 1 & 2 had a good character creation system because it conveyed the stat changes very clearly. S.P.E.C.I.A.L had a very small range so you could add and subtract points and see what it did on one screen.
 

ciox

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Are you retarded? I make a specific note about it.

Also, to avoid misunderstanding.
I believe that сertain games, like said ToME4 e.g. require math.
But some games can benefit greatly from hiding excessive math from player, and for the first hand it is a 3D games like Elex.
Also, I know that e.g. Elona have some of its math hidden, and while Elona is heavy on math and it's not a big part of math that hidden, it sertainly feels good when you have hidden stats that not clearly explained.

Big deal, the point is basic FPS games haven't budged in giving you number-based info, including the visible health points you were shitting your pants about 5 seconds ago, why should average RPGs give it up where that info is even more pertinent?
Even in Half-Life you can notice that an alien slave attack does 30 damage and that ducking out of cover first when you have less health than that might be a bad idea, let alone in a game that's more like an RPG and lets you pause/etc.
 

FeelTheRads

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A health-bar is far more abstract than numbers.

You don't understand right? Health bar is a simple representation of your overall health condition, and it's abstractive too.
While NUMBERS are evem MORE abstractive, and when you playing game that heavy on math, it overshadow everything else, and while it looks natural for isometric turn-based games, for 3D it's bad.
And even roguelikes can benefit from that.

Right... so it's about immersion. Because I don't think you understand what abstract means.
I repeat, if your condition is stored in the game code by a numeric value then a health bar to represent that can't be less abstract than a number.
From an "immersive" point of view... dunno, maybe, but I don't see much difference between a bar going down and a number going down. When you get hit in real life you see neither a bar nor a number going down. They both represent the same thing, in the same way: a value that goes either up or down.
To be actually immersive or realistic or whatever you want you need to have a different way of calculating the "life" or "condition" of a player that's not just an amount. Just changing how it's displayed doesn't really do much.

Though I am somewhat partial to hiding the HP of enemies, and I think displaying chances of success for dialogue lines is just retarded so eh, I agree with you in some places, I guess.
 
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Trashos

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But some of the jokers here acting as if picking a higher number between 14 and 13 is some advanced level math that only supremely refined and sophisticated mind can manage, now that's some next level of delusion. I hate to break it down to you, but a trained ape can do that. And if you find it challenging to perform a task that monkey can do in its sleep,, then you're probably an idiot.

You 'll be surprised how many people don't understand that taking a skill from 5 to 6 (out of 10) is not the same as taking it from 8 to 9, even in the simple case that the scale 1-10 is used linearly (ie, without abrupt proficiency jumps at certain numbers). The %-shift is not the same in the 2 cases.

Still, not the point.

But there's a difference between picking which one of two swords is better by comparing 3-4 relevant modifiers, and picking whether 98% hit chance is better than 99%. The first one requires analysis and thought, the second you can do automatically as long as you're above the age of 10, which apparently isn't all Codexers. And those sort of simpler numbers can definitely be hidden and replaced with some other system, because there really isn't any point of showing them in a first place.

Right, the point is that the game should be sophisticated enough so that the numbers matter. Now, I am not claiming that everyone should be a math wizard in order to play an RPG. Ideally, let people who like numbers have numbers, and let people who prefer fuzzy logic use fuzzy logic.
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My idea on this issue is that whatever you do, convenience vs numbers is a false dichotomy.

Even in games that go all in, like in ToEE above, usability is a thing, and the very complete hyperlink system pointing to definitions that the game has proves that point. Another example is tome4 with it's equipment and loot tooltips that show the relationship of each and every stat to what you have equipped (and it's not only -5 +5 either).

Just think about your accessibility before doing the implementation. No one wants to subtract and multiply things in their head during a game.

As for 'can it be more immersive or not'. On a rpg? Well, there are things like 'wounded portraits' already (PS:T, M&M, several others), and that stuff works better than hiding numbers for me. Now, if we're talking about a 3d game like Bloodlines, it makes sense because you want that immediacy and UI invisibility. Doesn't mean the system has to be simple, but i don't mind systems being opaque if there is plenty to keep me engaged in the game to learn them anyway (Hitman for example, everyone and anyone would bitch about a notoriety meter or some such indicator, but people looking at you a little harder is acceptable).
 
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IHaveHugeNick

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But there's a difference between picking which one of two swords is better by comparing 3-4 relevant modifiers, and picking whether 98% hit chance is better than 99%. The first one requires analysis and thought, the second you can do automatically as long as you're above the age of 10, which apparently isn't all Codexers. And those sort of simpler numbers can definitely be hidden and replaced with some other system, because there really isn't any point of showing them in a first place.

Right, the point is that the game should be sophisticated enough so that the numbers matter. Now, I am not claiming that everyone should be a math wizard in order to play an RPG. Ideally, let people who like numbers have numbers, and let people who prefer fuzzy logic use fuzzy logic.

The numbers always matter, because the code runs on numbers. Nobody ever wrote a line of code saying IF ScaryOrc113 is "Almost Dead" THEN start a bleeding amination.

Whether player can see all the underlying calculations or not has no impact on whether numbers are relevant to gameplay.

RPG at its core is a dice roll based genre and dice is a game of chance. It's a matter creating world that feels dangerous, unpredictable and hostile. If you can precisely calculate an impact of every action you'll ever take, and map out optimal course of action from the tutorial area until the final boss drops dead, then it's barely even a video game anymore, it's MS Excel The RPG.
 

Trashos

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Just think about your accessibility before doing the implementation. No one wants to subtract and multiply things in their head during a game.

I do. And RPGs are a genre that traditionally attracts a lot of nerds. You can hide the numbers to make it more accessible, but then do not expect certain people to be happy.

The numbers always matter, because the code runs on numbers. Nobody ever wrote a line of code saying IF ScaryOrc113 is "Almost Dead" THEN start a bleeding amination.

Whether player can see all the underlying calculations or not has no impact on whether numbers are relevant to gameplay.

RPG at its core is a dice roll based genre and dice is a game of chance. It's a matter creating world that feels dangerous, unpredictable and hostile. If you can precisely calculate an impact of every action you'll ever take, and map out optimal course of action from the tutorial area until the final boss drops dead, then it's barely even a video game anymore, it's MS Excel The RPG.

Yes, but it only practically matters when the game is tough enough, and well-designed in general. What's the point of raising my accuracy from 67% to 75%, if 40% is enough to get me through the game with minimum reloads.
(And it's only really fun when I have to compare different possibilities (with their own calculations) and assign to them different weigh factors to make a decision. RPGs are perfect for nerdy fun like that.)

I won't get into the RNG vs Determinsim debate here, we have the other thread for that. Just note that when I praise deterministic systems, I do not mean that RNG systems should go extinct. I would just like to have some deterministic systems to play with as well.
 

gestalt11

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I don't think of my overall health condition as a series of 3 colors, so the implied premise of this argument (said in many ways over the years) has always been complete bunk.

When someone punch me in the gut I don't feel yellow or "somewhat hurt" or any other stupid vague bullshit. I feel a very specific sensation and I know to a very good degree precisely what this means. As someone who has done a lot of grappling (years of wrestling and jiu jitsu) I have been injured a number of time. I am currently nursing two tendon injuries (which take a fucking long time to heal up) and believe me I can fairly accurately deduce the current state/nature of them by doing various actions to test them out (I reccomend taking a minute or two to let shock wear off anytime you suspect something may be injured even for minor injuries or ones that you are not sure about but the impact was shocking) .

You are not going to come up with anything MORE immersive than numbers, all the attempts at it have been stupid ass bullshit that is every bit as non-immersive and typically works worse from a functional standpoint.

This is and always has been some dumbass mathophobes attempt at a different UI because they have some irrational dislike of numbers or an irrational like for words or colors. They all are woefully in accurate. They same is true for skills levels. Numbers or words are woefully in accurate. You think having a black belt, lets people know what you are really good at and what you are just OK at? Well it doesn't and even in a disicipline like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which is something like 8-10 years for a black belt, that black belt should have a good knowledge of most moves but they will be considerably better at their bread and butter moves.

The fact of the matter is that behind the scenes it all boils down to numbers anyway and any represnetation is going to orders of magnitude removed from the way what ever it represents is experienced in real life that since this is a visual medium that claiming one is more immersive than the other is just a really good way to reveal your own biases and nothing more.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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Sheeit. I gotta hold the record for "most new threads made by moderators when I actually posted in some other thread" on the Codex. :D

Anyway, for an easy example of a more "immersive" number-hiding thing, I would rather see something simple like:

For Saving Throws in BG, descriptions from Useless to Legendary. Then if you hover over them, you can see the exact numbers. That is information that while important, is not utterly crucial that you know at all times that you have a 6 in Save vs. Wand and a 7 in Save vs. Breath.

For UIs in general, I just think they need to look more interesting and game-specific. A journal for quests should look like a journal (Morrowind), but have advanced features for you to search it, make notations of your own, etc.. An inventory UI should have some flavor related to the game lore, and in an RPG should look like some RPG-thing (weathered parchment, whatever.)

Skyrim is an example of how to do a terribly unimmersive UI. Ironically, the Perk Chart is a step in the right direction, not perfect, but at least shows they almost tried to make an interesting RPG UI related to the game lore. Your UI should look less like a spreadsheet or white-on-black with boring visuals and look more like something from the actual lore of the game world you are playing in.

Finally, ELEX in terms of health bar. I use health bars over portraits in BG and I like ELEX's health bar. There is no need to know if I have 725/800 HP when a visual representation will work. It's more immersive, but also, you can make the health indicators lore-specific as well. ELEX didn't really do that, but the health bar in ELEX could easily have been some mechanical-looking thing from the Adjutor (ELEX's Pip-Boy.) Maybe the Adjutor could have a holographic indicator showing you how healthy you currently are, or some such thing. Even descriptive text would be cool IMO, as it could tell you "Emergency! Seek immediate medical attention!" or whatever. Diablo had health "bars" that looked like potion bottles, and it was pretty fitting and cool at the time (for mana especially.)

I'd like to see skill numbers start to have the same descriptive text as my saving throws example eventually. Does it matter if I have a 52 in Pick Locks, vs. a 68? Sure, a few extra chests might open, but what do those numbers actually tell me? Descriptive text saying your Pick Locks skill is "Good" would accomplish the same and be nicer to look at. And if you hover over Good, you can see the exact number in a pop-up tip, but also a description that says "You are able to pick enough locks that you'd give a halfling rogue a good run for their money" or something, again related to the game lore. See Planescape: Torment for a great example of that (character sheet scores for STR, INT, etc. have descriptions that tell you just how impressive your skills are getting, with 25 actually being Godlike, with interesting descriptions, etc..)

Those things go a long way. Besides that they really aren't done as much today for some reason (a separate topic.)
 

d1nolore

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I think there's a balance there. For awhile there things were moving towards generic GUI's, list inventories, equipment seen as a number. I think this is because the boom of casual gaming, ad MMO's where you just cycle quickbar box clicking combos, and consoletards. Things seem to be moving the other way though as developers have realised there's a strong market of RPG fans.

Any game that has a DPS number should be buried in the desert with that ET game. Or restricted to console. :eek:
 

Ash

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No. Even in RPGs that intended to be relatively immersive, stats should still be displayed in the character sheet (which is relatively non-intrusive). The precise information they provide is relevant to strategy, character information, combat feedback etc. Games that intend to be immersive still need to find compromise with gameplay, otherwise you get a shit game.

for non-RPGs, stats are less relevant to gameplay so you can get away with even entirely HUD-less games that still feature acceptable gameplay, like say Call of Cthulhu DCotE, but for RPGs it's just not possible unless you don't mind a very simple or overly vague RPG.
 

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