Squeenix Final Fantasy XII remaster

[Delterius]

TBH, while I can see an advantage in the customizeable AIs I still played Dragon Age and FFXII with very minimal gambit use. I don't see much of point otherwise.

 

[Hobo Elf]

FFXII doesn't even allow you to perform the most basic and common type of action that you can do in any PC RTwP game.

Such as?

You simply can't adequately micromanage a party and respond to threats efficiently. This is despite the fact that the party size in FFXII is only three characters while the party size in say, the Infinity Engine games is double that + potentially a bunch of summons.

You could, but it might get tedious vs trash mobs, which is why the Gambit systems allows you to set parameters for the AI to do everything you want it to do. It's as automated as you allow it, which is great. You can create just the amount of micro you want to have, or none if you want to just grind on auto pilot, if that's your fancy. VS most of the optional boss fights you pretty much have to take control unless you are working with meta data in case you know what kind of gambits to setup to counter the threats.

How can a game that automates that process and largely takes it out of your hands be the best RTwP game ever?

As I said before, the game is as automated as you want it to be. You can have no automation, you can have full automation, and you can have an entire spectrum of everything in between. It's up to the players preferences.

To say nothing of the fact that a game that relies so stronly an AI scripting is essentially a game where the primary challenge consists of the artificial intelligence fighting against...itself.

There's no universal AI switch for FF12 that you flip on and off and let the game play it for you. For the AI to be successful you need to know the ins and outs of the game and enemy encounters and set it up for success, and you constantly have to change the AI scripting. You have to custom tailor the AI always for individual boss fights, especially the harder optional ones such as the mid to high level hunts and Espers, otherwise it'll just shit itself. A shit player isn't going to win the game unless they know how they are scripting the AI, unless they read a guide.

All of this is optional, of course. The game doesn't force you to use gambits. At all.

 

[Cross]

FFXII doesn't even allow you to perform the most basic and common type of action that you can do in any PC RTwP game.

Such as?

Infinity Engine scenario: An enemy mage is casting a spell and you believe it's an AoE spell. Your characters are cluttered together, so you order them to move to different spots so they don't all get hit by the incoming AoE.

You cannot do this in FFXII because to move a character, you have to take control of them and even then, you can't order them to move to a specific spot, you have to directly move them in real-time for the duration of the distance as you would in an action-RPG.

As I said, even something as incredibly basic as ordering a character to move to a certain spot or ordering multiple characters to move or attack, is impossible to do in FFXII. You might argue it's a great RPG (I disagree, but let's not digress), but as a game with RTwP combat it's incredibly lacking.

 

[Hyperion]

FFXII doesn't even allow you to perform the most basic and common type of action that you can do in any PC RTwP game.

Such as?

Infinity Engine scenario: An enemy mage is casting a spell and you believe it's an AoE spell. Your characters are cluttered together, so you order them to move to different spots so they don't all get hit by the incoming AoE.

You cannot do this in FFXII because to move a character, you have to take control of them and even then, you can't order them to move to a specific spot, you have to directly move them in real-time for the duration of the distance as you would in an action-RPG.

As I said, even something as incredibly basic as ordering a character to move to a certain spot or ordering multiple characters to move or attack, is impossible to do in FFXII. You might argue it's a great RPG (I disagree, but let's not digress), but as an RTwP game it's incredibly lacking.

Spells have to have a target in FFXII. Once you see the red targeting line, you switch to that person and move them away from the other 2. Or, you use Decoy on the person you want to be the target of all damage and position them properly ahead of time so this is never an issue.

 

[Cross]

Spells have to have a target in FFXII.

They have to have a target because the abilities and spells were obviously designed around the control and interface limitations I pointed out. This is hardly a positive thing, and it only reinforces my point.

Once you see the red targeting line, you switch to that person and move them away from the other 2. Or, you use Decoy on the person you want to be the target of all damage and position them properly ahead of time so this is never an issue.

Sounds like aggro managing a tank in an MMO.

 

[Hyperion]

Sounds like aggro managing a tank in an MMO.

No. You cast a spell called Decoy, and all enemies focus on that person for the duration of the spell, but has a chance to fail. And even if it were...so?

They have to have a target because the abilities and spells were obviously designed around the control and interface limitations I pointed out. This is hardly a positive thing, and it only reinforces my point.

Highly unnecessary for fights that matter. Late-game encounters are tightly tuned and what you're talking about is wasting time for the sake of argument, because you come in pretty much every JRPG thread to bitch about CRPG's vs. JRPGs.

 

[CryptRat]

I'm not sure I should join the debate since I don't care that much about this game but anyway, I spent hours on the game so why not. Take this only I my own opinions but I completely disagree with you guys here. I hate gambits just like I hate any AI control for party members. Why would I control only one character in an party-based RPG, or even in an RPG at all? I don't know if I consider gambits worse offenders than party members who act entirely by themselves or not, what's sure is that I hate both options with a passion.

You could, but it might get tedious vs trash mobs, which is why the Gambit systems allows you to set parameters for the AI to do everything you want it to do. It's as automated as you allow it, which is great. You can create just the amount of micro you want to have, or none if you want to just grind on auto pilot, if that's your fancy. VS most of the optional boss fights you pretty much have to take control unless you are working with meta data in case you know what kind of gambits to setup to counter the threats.

How can a game that automates that process and largely takes it out of your hands be the best RTwP game ever?

As I said before, the game is as automated as you want it to be. You can have no automation, you can have full automation, and you can have an entire spectrum of everything in between. It's up to the players preferences.[...]All of this is optional, of course. The game doesn't force you to use gambits. At all.

In my opinion these are unfair arguments, using gambits and trying to optimize how to use them is obviously how the game is meant to be played. So much that the game does not give you any alternative way to control a party in this game, which really pisses me off, if there was an option to play the game like classic FFs then we would have a different debate. You certainly don't have to control zero character, the game gives you the possibility to control one and that's what I do, but more than one, not really.

There's no universal AI switch for FF12 that you flip on and off and let the game play it for you. For the AI to be successful you need to know the ins and outs of the game and enemy encounters and set it up for success, and you constantly have to change the AI scripting. You have to custom tailor the AI always for individual boss fights, especially the harder optional ones such as the mid to high level hunts and Espers, otherwise it'll just shit itself. A shit player isn't going to win the game unless they know how they are scripting the AI, unless they read a guide.

That's half wrong, you can automatize every bad status change healing, HP healing when your characters are low HPs and that sort of things, which makes the game not fun at all. And once again it's the way the game is meant to be played, don't tell me just not to use them, I can also play the game blinfolded but I won't either, you're given only one way to control your party and this way os very not fun to me because it relies on finally automatizing every character but one and playing as only one character just in like all these modern, japanese as western, RPGs I'll never play.

I am not the biggest fan of RTwP, but presumably the thing it has going for it over other combat systems is the simultaneous conflict resolution, i.e. encounters where the key to victory is predicting and responding to the real-time flow of combat. How can a game that automates that process and largely takes it out of your hands be the best RTwP game ever?

Yes, I agree with the edgy newfag, the IE games as well as more generally characters doing basically/almost nothing except following you at most until you're asking them to (and with the game thought that way), possibly with the ability to queue actions on the go, are certainly lesser offenders in my opinion. I don't want more AI, I doesn't want any AI at all. Just experiment with turn-based systems just like Valkyria Chronicles or Resonance of fate if you really have to (hint : you don't) try and modernize things.

My 2 cents.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I'm not sure I should join the debate since I don't care that much about this game but anyway, I spent hours on the game so why not. Take this only I my own opinions but I completely disagree with you guys here. I hate gambits just like I hate any AI control for party members. Why would I control only one character in an party-based RPG, or even in an RPG at all? I don't know if I consider gambits worse offenders than party members who act entirely by themselves or not, what's sure is that I hate both options with a passion.

You could, but it might get tedious vs trash mobs, which is why the Gambit systems allows you to set parameters for the AI to do everything you want it to do. It's as automated as you allow it, which is great. You can create just the amount of micro you want to have, or none if you want to just grind on auto pilot, if that's your fancy. VS most of the optional boss fights you pretty much have to take control unless you are working with meta data in case you know what kind of gambits to setup to counter the threats.

How can a game that automates that process and largely takes it out of your hands be the best RTwP game ever?

As I said before, the game is as automated as you want it to be. You can have no automation, you can have full automation, and you can have an entire spectrum of everything in between. It's up to the players preferences.[...]All of this is optional, of course. The game doesn't force you to use gambits. At all.

In my opinion these are unfair arguments, using gambits and trying to optimize how to use them is obviously how the game is meant to be played. So much that the game does not give you any alternative way to control a party in this game, which really pisses me off, if there was an option to play the game like classic FFs then we would have a different debate. You certainly don't have to control zero character, the game gives you the possibility to control one and that's what I do, but more than one, not really.

It's not an unfair argument, because it's true. Obviously Gambits are there to be used since they put in a lot of work into them, but that doesn't mean that the player has to use them or else they won't be able to progress through the game.

There's no universal AI switch for FF12 that you flip on and off and let the game play it for you. For the AI to be successful you need to know the ins and outs of the game and enemy encounters and set it up for success, and you constantly have to change the AI scripting. You have to custom tailor the AI always for individual boss fights, especially the harder optional ones such as the mid to high level hunts and Espers, otherwise it'll just shit itself. A shit player isn't going to win the game unless they know how they are scripting the AI, unless they read a guide.

That's half wrong, you can automatize every bad status change healing, HP healing when your characters are low HPs and that sort of things, which makes the game not fun at all. And once again it's the way the game is meant to be played, don't tell me just not to use them, I can also play the game blinfolded but I won't either, you're given only one way to control your party and this way os very not fun to me because it relies on finally automatizing every character but one and playing as only one character just in like all these modern, japanese as western, RPGs I'll never play.[/quote]

Mm no, you kinda missed the point. I said that turning the AI scripting on simply isn't auto winning the game. Yeah making a Gambit to cure bad ailments is easy to do, but it's a far cry from making the game easy mode. Plus if you're going to make a gambit for each ailment, since there is no universal ailment gambit, your character isn't going to do much of anything else but cure ailments, which isn't very useful. I could tell you not to use the gambits, but, as you said, the game isn't fun for you. Kind of a moot point since you wont enjoy the game with our without AI so it feels redundant to even bring this up.

I am not the biggest fan of RTwP, but presumably the thing it has going for it over other combat systems is the simultaneous conflict resolution, i.e. encounters where the key to victory is predicting and responding to the real-time flow of combat. How can a game that automates that process and largely takes it out of your hands be the best RTwP game ever?

Yes, I agree with the edgy newfag, the IE games as well as more generally characters doing basically/almost nothing except following you at most until you're asking them to (and with the game thought that way), possibly with the ability to queue actions on the go, are certainly lesser offenders in my opinion. I don't want more AI, I doesn't want any AI at all. Just experiment with turn-based systems just like Valkyria Chronicles or Resonance of fate if you really have to (hint : you don't) try and modernize things.

My 2 cents.

Main problem with IE games is that the encounter design is quite simple. The most complex it usually gets is with Mage duels, and those just come down to stripping the enemy Mage from their enchantments. In FF12 boss encounters can get a bit trickier than that, like having to cast Reflect on yourself and then cast healing spells that reflect off of you onto the enemy to damage them because that's the only way you can bypass their Reflect buff. Or fighting against Gilgamesh and desperately trying to tank him while trying to Steal the valuable Genji items off of him while avoiding death. These were exhilarating fights to do since I had to micro them by hand the first time when I was playing the game blind. And, to be honest, even when replaying the game, they're still fun even with Gambits. Which is fine if you don't like it, but if you are fine with them, FF12 does have the best AI scripting in a RTwP RPG that we have seen so far.

And I think it's a bit redundant to bring up TB games as being superior since that's not even on the table here. This is purely a discussion about RTwP. Obviously a TB game is more preferable in most cases, but for what FF12 is worth as a RTwP game, I think it's pretty good.

 

[Hyperion]

Obviously a TB game is more preferable in most cases, but for what FF12 is worth as a RTwP game, I think it's pretty good.

With the amount of buffs and debuffs you pretty much need to use (Bubble, Decoy, Protect, and Shell. Bravery, Faith, and Haste being amazing and QOL but not must-have) to survive the tough encounters in FF12, turn-based isn't even in the realm of possibility. Debuffs are obviously a little bit more forgiving because of the Nihopaloa + Remedy trick, but beating most hunts when they first become available without at least Blind is very, very difficult.

Also, Cuchulainn is a more exhilarating fight than 95% of all RPG's, turn-based included when you do it at an appropriate level. The drain is just ruthless.

 

[CryptRat]

I said that turning the AI scripting on simply isn't auto winning the game. Yeah making a Gambit to cure bad ailments is easy to do, but it's a far cry from making the game easy mode.

Yes, I may not like the combat system but for the record I don't consider that FF12 is particularly easy, it's certainly among the harder FFs if anything, and I understand that the higher challenge is something people like about the game.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Monocled posts. Bless you, sirs.

 

[LESS T_T]

Screenshot showing wide resolution and multi-monitor support:

 

[LESS T_T]

Out now.

 

[Abu Antar]

If only it didn't use Denuvo, I'd have bought for a decent price on GMG.

 

[Rahdulan]

Just like with FF15 - not at that price. But eventually, sure.

 

[Reinhardt]

Just like with FF15

Why someone would buy jrpg with full male cast?

 

[Felix]

The price is laughable.

 

[Morality Games]

The price is laughable.

A running theme with JRPGs on Steam.

 

[Haplo]

The price is laughable.

A running theme with JRPGs on Steam.

Some, like Nioh or Dark Souls, are fairly justified. Others... not so much.

Then again ports of some older games do come out pretty cheap, like 20 EUR starting price.

 

[Jacob]

It was pretty cheap back then when it was just Final Fantasy XIII and friends. It seems that with their popularity publishers feel justified to put a full price tag on Steam JRPGs, even for the rematers.

 

[aweigh]

Nioh and Dark Souls are not "JRPGs"...

 

[Haplo]

Well, they are made in Japan. And if I understand Codex politics, everything made in Japan goes to the jrpg forum.
Of course doesn't necessarily mean that they should be classified as such.
Oh and I forgot about Nier:Automata. That's also a good game, prolly worth the asking price.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Tip: Greenmangaming has the launch discount you'll find on Steam, plus an extra 22% off with voucher code TOPPICK22. I picked up the game for £21.83, not bad.

 

[moraes]

Well, they are made in Japan. And if I understand Codex politics, everything made in Japan goes to the jrpg forum.

Including DosBox, as per the Emulation Central sticky.

 

[tet666]

In my opinion these are unfair arguments, using gambits and trying to optimize how to use them is obviously how the game is meant to be played. So much that the game does not give you any alternative way to control a party in this game, which really pisses me off, if there was an option to play the game like classic FFs then we would have a different debate. You certainly don't have to control zero character, the game gives you the possibility to control one and that's what I do, but more than one, not really.

Wait what are you even talking about? That's blatantly false there is party control, you can just pause the game any time you want (if the game is in wait mode) and switch to any character in the menu and give him orders or queue them? How are you forced to play only 1 character? It plays exactly like the old ATB games this way. Don't tell me you didn't even know that...

I never even touched the gambits in my last play trough on the PS2 it's perfectly doable and fun if that's your thing like in this video (not mine):