Visual immersion in RPG UIs - should RPGs hide numbers?

[Deleted Member 16721]

I actually think a system that is still number-based yet shows you visual representations in a guimorphic (I think that's the term, using lore-friendly and immersive elements for the UI) way can be better and more interesting in a UI. I think modern games focus way too much on efficiency, showing you a bunch of numbers that have no immersive value and make the game seem like a spreadsheet.

Example, compare Diablo 3 vs. Arcanum. Arcanum has the guimorphic UI, it ain't as perfectly efficient as D3's but you feel it more. It looks like it matches the environment and the steampunk game world. In classic RPGs journals are books (Morrowind) that look like real books, and even the background textures and colors match the game lore (Baldur's Gate's stone/weathered look, etc..) Compare that to D3 or Skyrim and modern games don't even try to do that anymore, you get these boring white text on black backgrounds with no flavor or immersiveness at all. That is because they prioritize information and efficiency much too highly and sacrifice visual representation and immersion to do that.

I want to see descriptions with a worded range. In Lords of Xulima, I love seeing enemy's strength before fighting them range from Very Easy, Easy, to Difficult, Very Difficult, Titanic, Impossible, etc.. It's more interesting than seeing "Power Level = 374.5" or something. Same with weaponry and skills in RPGs. I'd like to see the basic damage and attributes, but the choice to have a lore-friendly, more interesting visual representation would be great. Baldur's Gate for example, show me the Saving Throws on a parchment with hand-drawn triangle charts showing how good the saving throws are. Look at this example, top right corner in the Tendencies chart:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dbB1QayT7gc/maxresdefault.jpg

It's not that great of an example but in an RPG character sheet with proper graphics and implementation it would be better to look at than simple numbers.

At the very least, have a range of word representations, Terrible, Poor, Good, Very Good, Great, Legendary, etc.. And if you hover over them you can have lore-friendly descriptions (Legendary. Your skills match the finest specimens in the known multiverse, you are basically a God among mortals, etc.. - see PS:T:EE for examples of that on the character sheet.) Rather than just simple numbers, this is more immersive and interesting to look at. Yet an option for a simple toggle to show exact numbers would be fine too (you don't want to get rid of the numbers in any way behind the scenes, and the basic, very important numbers would be shown on gear, etc.. You still want to know a helmet increases AC + 1 or a weapon does 2d4 damage, etc..) But for the character sheet and overall UI, improvements can be made, and a balance can be struck as well.

Obfuscating some numbers can be a positive thing as long as the game doesn't dumb down or remove them behind the scenes (and maybe gives the option to toggle exact numbers on/off. Or even have a separate clickable sheet to see all the advanced numbers.) People think I'm crazy when I say in ELEX I like how the game doesn't tell you exact details in every skill description. It lets you figure them out yourself, and also makes it so you don't sweat the minute details of them as well and not turn it into Spreadsheet: The RPG. Trust they will work is the idea and the implementation should match. In a real CRPG you would want to know more specifics, but I think it's boring as heck to look at a UI like Diablo 3's which just looks like a math textbook with no immersion whatsoever. One could argue D3 is going for that approach to begin with, but still, there is such a thing as too much information and information not being presented in an interesting way. The character sheet in BG:EE is hard to look at.

I want more UI's like Arcanum's. Or Baldur's Gate with improvements. Morrowind's journal with improvements. The quest log in Skyrim looks like a settings menu that doesn't even have any tie to the game itself. Where did the creativity go?? I think developers are so afraid that their players might get confused or won't know exactly where to go or what to do that they feel they have to guide every aspect and make it super simple for anyone to understand. Great strategy to make billions, terrible strategy to making interesting, memorable CRPGs.

 

[Sigourn]

fluent I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what Tim was trying to do. It was less about "making it visually interesting" (you mention Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Morrowind; one could also add Fallout and Icewind Dale, with its clearly Nordic inspiration) and more "visually understandable". After playing some of the classics it is true that UI's like Skyrim feel sterile and not representative of the game itself (personally I think Dark Souls' has a lot of charm).

 

[Fenix]

People think I'm crazy when I say in ELEX I like how the game doesn't tell you exact details in every skill description. It lets you figure them out yourself, and also makes it so you don't sweat the minute details of them as well and not turn it into Spreadsheet: The RPG.

Why? I feel exactly the same about Elex and its "less numbers more muh immershun".
Agreed with the rest.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

fluent I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what Tim was trying to do. It was less about "making it visually interesting" (you mention Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Morrowind; one could also add Fallout and Icewind Dale, with its clearly Nordic inspiration) and more "visually understandable". After playing some of the classics it is true that UI's like Skyrim feel sterile and not representative of the game itself (personally I think Dark Souls' has a lot of charm).

No, I understand that. I just used it as an opportunity to go on a rant about something I've been thinking about for awhile now. Being visually understandable is part of the idea for me, too. One could argue that that comes along with the ideas I presented, going hand in hand with being visually interesting as well. The screenshot I posted with the graph is an example of "visually understandable" (it's also a geometrical figure, that shows quickly and easy in a visual way what the "numbers" behind the scene are doing. Just imagine something similar on an RPG character sheet, which is what Tim is talking about I think, but also done in an immersive and lore-friendly way, i.e. a hand-written parchment page with geometrical graphs, rather than a cold, digital display that looks like a spreadsheet or doesn't match the vibe of the game.)

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

People think I'm crazy when I say in ELEX I like how the game doesn't tell you exact details in every skill description. It lets you figure them out yourself, and also makes it so you don't sweat the minute details of them as well and not turn it into Spreadsheet: The RPG.

Why? I feel exactly the same about Elex and its "less numbers more muh immershun".
Agreed with the rest.

So you are saying you agree with me that it's a *good* thing in ELEX, right? Just making sure.

Using Diablo 3 as the extreme opposite example, that game to me just felt ridiculous with the numbers and math. I also think old-school RPGs and RPGs in general are better with small numbers. I love in D&D 2nd Edition where damage ranges are 1-8, or a single point or two of THAC0 makes a significant difference, or at least feels like it does. Same with Armor Class, HP, etc.. When you get into 3725.25 DPS and stuff like that, it just gets into some weird "other" area of gaming. Like an e-sport or some RPG Math Sim, or whatever Diablo 3 would be considered now, with people doing extensively critical analysis of small numbers to make "perfect" builds and stuff like that.

I'd rather RPGs that reward you for good builds, but also don't get into that type of math, or at least don't blatantly show it at every turn, instead using the ideas Tim mentioned and what I posted about. Visually interesting, more immersive UIs that fit the game much better, are creative and still easy to understand and fun to play with.

 

[Fenix]

So you are saying you agree with me that it's a *good* thing in ELEX, right?

Absolutely right. On steam forum I have read many posts about how "they took away out numbers of HP heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!" and that was just ridiculos.
Why they need them at all? How it will make them better at game? What this knowledge will give them? I got no single answer on these questions lol.

 

[Lhynn]

RPGs that obscure mechanics and numbers are superior. The player should have to explore the game for the information to find out what works. It also forces developers to design with common sense in mind.

 

[ciox]

It also forces you to trust developers on the descriptions they use, I've encountered enough awful discrepancies between claimed effects and real effects that it leaves me kinda mixed on the issue, text surface description with optional number-based description that's actually hooked into the game's variables for accuracy would be nice.

 

[Trashos]

ITT people who can't into math. I need the numbers and I get pissed when I don't have them (until I find them online, that is). How am I supposed to know who to shoot when, if I don't know how many shots they take to die?

Not showing exact numbers is a fun way of letting you know that they haven't really designed anything properly.

 

[Lhynn]

It also forces you to trust developers.

Nope. this is so false you should probably just off yourself.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

ITT people who can't into math. I need the numbers and I get pissed when I don't have them (until I find them online, that is). How am I supposed to know who to shoot when, if I don't know how many shots they take to die?

Not showing exact numbers is a fun way of letting you know that they haven't really designed anything properly.

It has nothing to do with design if the numbers are still working behind the scenes. It's about withholding (pointless) certain math information for more immersion and less Math: The RPG, Obsessive Compulsive of the Year Edition.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

It also forces you to trust developers.

Nope. this is so false you should probably just off yourself.

It does though. In ELEX I trust if I invest in Animal Trophies I will get cool trophies for each level I invest. I don't need to see text telling me exactly which ones I'll receive, or what percentage I'll receive them, or how much they are worth, etc.. If you keep going then developers could just be adding all that information for every skill. You'll be seeing 3 page descriptions per skill that give you detailed analytics on your gold-to-carry-weight ratio pertaining to the strength of your character when their reputation is high enough with charisma modifiers to sell the trophies for an advanced profit after befriending the merchant in town.

Do we really want that? (In b4 you all say you do.)

 

[Lhynn]

ITT people who can't into math.

Anyone with a brain can pick whats best at a glance if you have all the info at your diposal. Whats interesting is figuring out the game, if it comes figured out for you, then its extremely boring. Unless it features a great deal of complexity, like games based on 3.5.

It does though.

Nope, in black desert for example you are given minimal information and this makes players actually get more invested in investigating the game, what may look good or be harder to get doesnt need to be better. Even in diablo 1 a lot of factors were unknown. In NeoScavenger you can actually trust the developer most of the time, and discovering the world is an amazing experience.

Hiding all the numbers is almost always a net positive.

 

[Trashos]

Unless it features a great deal of complexity

Now you are talking my language.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

ITT people who can't into math.

Anyone with a brain can pick whats best at a glance if you have all the info at your diposal. Whats interesting is figuring out the game, if it comes figured out for you, then its extremely boring. Unless it features a great deal of complexity, like games based on 3.5.

It does though.

Nope, in black desert for example you are given minimal information and this makes players actually get more invested in investigating the game, what may look good or be harder to get doesnt need to be better. Even in diablo 1 a lot of factors were unknown. In NeoScavenger you can actually trust the developer most of the time, and discovering the world is an amazing experience.

Hiding all the numbers is almost always a net positive.

Uh, are we agreeing? I think I misread what you posted.

Hiding numbers in ELEX = great. I don't care to know if I have exactly 253 HP. A health bar is fine.

And I'm all about complexity, but in ways that I consider interesting for my tastes. I.e., I love D&D complexity, 2nd to 3rd Edition, but I dislike Diablo 3's complexity, which feels too gamey and artificial to me. Sure, Saving Throws are gamey mechanics too, but it just "feels" better than seeing just a bunch of weird calculations that just go overboard (DPS in the thousands with decimals, etc..)

 

[ciox]

It also forces you to trust developers.

Nope. this is so false you should probably just off yourself.

Right, my experience has been that the developers will use text only descriptions to try to sell you on the effectiveness of some ability or other, but they do this automatically as every ability needs to look attractive even if it's weak, ultimately you need some maths to judge if an ability that "significantly increases" this or that is something strong enough to pick. Otherwise you're stuck with the radiation shield from SS2 that costs a bunch of modules but only gives you about 15% resistance and threads asking if an ability even works at all or not if it doesn't have obvious effects.

Turns out that "slightly" is actually just 2-3%. Probably not your concept of "slightly".

 

[Fenix]

ITT people who can't into math.

Go fuck yourself, I won ToME4 all difficulties except last two - Madness and before it, forget how it's called, and that difficulty level before Madness was practically won, I just got bored with my super-insanely powerful Adventurer type based on Chronomancer.
Your claims are absurd, retard.


Also, to avoid misunderstanding.
I believe that сertain games, like said ToME4 e.g. require math.
But some games can benefit greatly from hiding excessive math from player, and for the first hand it is a 3D games like Elex.
Also, I know that e.g. Elona have some of its math hidden, and while Elona is heavy on math and it's not a big part of math that hidden, it sertainly feels good when you have hidden stats that not clearly explained.

 

[hpstg]

ELEX is hiding so much math you can't even see your hit points.

 

[Fenix]

WHY YOU FUCKING NEED THIS?

 

[ciox]

WHY YOU FUCKING NEED THIS?

You're autism-ing pretty bad.
We both play Underrail, would you really want that game to not have good number information given how based it is around damage, crafting and itemization? Come the fuck on. Just imagining all the stats, procs and crafting data in that game being collapsed into Good and Very Good is hilarious, and jerking around with that to make a build that's good enough for Hard or above is even moreso.

 

[Lhynn]

We both play Underrail, would you really want that game to not have good number information given how based it is around damage, crafting and itemization? Come the fuck on. Just imagining all the stats, procs and crafting data in that game being collapsed into Good and Very Good is hilarious, and jerking around with that to make a build that's good enough for Hard or above is even moreso.

Underrail was literally built to be a numbers game and very little else. Ergo this chat does not apply to it and a few other games that are like it.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And even in games like Underrail or Baldur's Gate you can still visualize or simplify some of the stats in the game. Do I really need to see that my 5 or 6 different saving throws are 6, 7, 7, 6, 9 ? A system like Useless, Terrible, Poor, Decent, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Incredible, Legendary would be better to look at. That's already kind of in Planescape if you hover over the character stat numbers (and, coincidentally, is one of the awesomest things I've seen on a D&D char sheet. Learning that my Intelligence of 25 basically put me among the most intelligent, Godlike beings in the entire multiverse, was much cooler than just seeing a 25. And some of the other stats off the top off my head this would work with as well. Thief skills, etc..

 

[FeelTheRads]

Anyone with a brain can pick whats best at a glance if you have all the info at your diposal. Whats interesting is figuring out the game, if it comes figured out for you, then its extremely boring. Unless it features a great deal of complexity, like games based on 3.5.

Well, you can't really have a very complex system where everything is tagged as "cool", "shit" and "better" and other such variations.

So, then what.. this should be used just to make simple systems more interesting?

Because certainly a complex, number-heavy game is harder to figure out. Unless you're particularly excited about finding out if "good" can beat "superior" or some such.

 

[Fenix]

You're autism-ing pretty bad.

And your autism causes earthquakes.
Hey! Want to hear a joke? Autist comes to a bar, and barmen just shoot him!
Because noone likes autists.

Enough with the jokes.

You, autists still doesn't answered even once why you need to see exact number of HP in Elex.
Not even once I say.
What will it change to better?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Why is it better if you can't see them?

All I heard, and RPG-expert fluent agrees, is that "you don't need them".
Well, then certainly it's a non-issue for you , so why so worked out if some people want to see them?

Edit:

I haven't played Elex, so I don't know how HP work there, but in games where you can increase your hit-points a lot during the game, it's pretty stupid to have no way to see the actual number.
Like say, having the same bar for 10 HP as for 100 HP.