Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
Trent is right. Full party control is what made nwn2 bad.

Yep, I've been playing with a story and the more I think of it, it would just better to make a pregenerated character, it is really, really hard to generate a driving motivation for a blank state, you really risk getting a passive character that is just an errand boy and do what the other characters tell him to do, what I really don't like.
There are several advices i can give you for a blank slate that simply work. But the most important factor is that motivations must come from outside factors so that any character, no matter background (within reason) could share.
A valuable family heirloom has been stolen, wether you want it for sentimental purposes, because its expensive as fuck, because you want to get back at the thief, because an elder of the family ordered you to, etc. Is up to the player, the goal is the same regardless.
You are an adventurer, thats the only thing certain about this blank slate, he has been hired to perform a job, something goes horribly wrong.
You are strken by a disease, find the cure!

After this you introduce characters that form a bond with the player acording to their interactions. after the first job is complete, said character, a friend, a romantic interest, a follower, a relative, a superior gets in trouble. Their conflict becomes the players conflict, or jumpstarts it.
Alternatively an enemy of the player tries to get back at him, the player must survive and then try to find a way to gain the upper hand.


After that its just a matter of taking past events and reference them to make it personal.

Its really easy to take a blank slate and turn the story into a personal one, but its never quick, you have to set up that shit. The payoff is always worth it tho.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,984
Pathfinder: Wrath
It also depends on the setting. If you live in a world/culture where you have to prove yourself as an adult by going on an adventure, there is no conceivable way you would refuse or not care. It's like a person from the Middle-Ages refusing to go to church or not caring, it's not possible, the worldview doesn't permit it. And all kinds of "authentic" (i.e. folk) traditions can work.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
It is, the moment you set out to make a party based game the focus of everything else goes from a single character to a full party.
Many elements like the controls, the UI, the presentation, need to change to fit full party control gameplay. Not to mention that characters were designed so that they would be handled exclusively by one player, theres can be a lot of micro involved in handling just one, those elements would need to be simplified.

Finally, no one asked for it, no one cares. Nwn1 succeeded and became a thing because of its own design philosophy, why would you change them 16 years later on a rerelease? Now thatd be stupid beyond belief.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
It is, the moment you set out to make a party based game the focus of everything else goes from a single character to a full party.
Many elements like the controls, the UI, the presentation, need to change to fit full party control gameplay. Not to mention that characters were designed so that they would be handled exclusively by one player, theres can be a lot of micro involved in handling just one, those elements would need to be simplified.

Finally, no one asked for it, no one cares. Nwn1 succeeded and became a thing because of its own design philosophy, why would you change them 16 years later on a rerelease? Now thatd be stupid beyond belief.

1. They're refactoring the UI, anyway.
2. MotB and PS:T employ full party control yet have better PC role-playing than any NWN module.
3. Micro-management is more annoying with dumb companion AI than it is with full party control. In its catering, nothing would need to be simplified as evidenced by NWN2.
4. Full party control was called for from day 1, it's never not been called for, and it won't ever stop being called for until it's employed.
5. The initial vision of NWN was flawed and narrow. NWN is not just a multiplayer game. Thankfully, it evolved far beyond what BioWare foresaw, to the point that with each patch/expansion BioWare scrambled to improve companion control with clumsy hacks and trickery; in the end, only managing a caricature of the tried-and-true.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
1. They're refactoring the UI, anyway.
Not the only element that would need change, not even close to the most important either.

2. MotB and PS:T employ full party control yet have better PC role-playing than any NWN module.
The gameplay of both is cancer.

3. Micro-management is more annoying with dumb companion AI than it is with full party control.
Dumb companion AI means you dont have to care. And i didnt, was too busy microing my own character. Having to take care of a full party would fundamentally change the experience. And i firmly believe itd be for the worst too.

4. Full party control was called for from day 1, it's never not been called for, and it won't ever stop being called for until it's employed.
No where have it heard it mentioned but here, and it was by full party rpg fags. And i have played this game for close to a decade.

5. The initial vision of NWN was flawed and narrow. NWN is not just a multiplayer game.
NWN was always mainly meant to be multiplayer, and having the multiplayer experience and every fan of nwn that didnt ask for this suffer would be a stupid move.

Thankfully, it evolved far beyond what BioWare foresaw, to the point that with each patch/expansion BioWare scrambled to improve companion control with clumsy hacks and trickery; in the end, only managing a caricature of the tried-and-true.
A lot of things got improved with patches, this is an inane point to make. Even diablo 2, which was big at the time, allowed you to customize your companion to that degree. Companion inventory should have been there from the start.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
1. The UI already handles multiplayer groups. During the refactoring process, it won't be difficult to translate what's already there to single-player mode. Any half-decent coder with access to the source code could add it; even Obsidian managed to do it (whether or not you think it was any good, they did it, and it's better than dumb companion AI for a lot of people). If Beamdog refuse to implement it themselves but at least unhardcode its potential, you can bank on modders running through walls to make FPC happen.

2. MotB and PS:T were given as examples of FPC not precluding role-playing focus. If MotB combat is cancer, NWN companion AI is terminal cancer.

3. Believe what you want. Fact is the best role-playing and combat RPGs employ FPC. Giving the player access to companions and not giving them direct and full control of them was an outstandingly bad decision by BioWare, second only to RTwP implementation for Baldur's Gate.

4. Back in the day, people couldn't believe NWN didn't have FPC. You weren't around, obviously. On all public venues over the years, I've seen it consistently called for. I really don't care that you think it's just the 'Dex, because it wasn't, isn't and won't be just the 'Dex. Even now, people are calling for it on reddit, GoG and the Beamdog forums. It'll be called for on Steam, too.

Here, take a look at this and take a look at the top-rated comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/7mrrdm/would_you_be_more_interested_in_nwn_if_beamdog/

Those people are long-time Infinity Engine fans that have been around since Day 1. I know a few of them well.

5. Way to ignore what I said. While multiplayer, DMing and PWs might have been the initial out-of-touch-with-your-Infinity-fanbase pitch, it thankfully wasn't the only way NWN evolved. Besides HotU and certain PMP modules (which are not intended for MP), the hundreds of modules listed by me in Core - and referred to by Trent as "megalithic" - speak for themselves.

6. FPC should have been there from the start, not just afterthought trickery for companion inventory.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
1. The UI already handles multiplayer groups. During the refactoring process, it won't be difficult to translate what's already there to single-player mode. Any half-decent coder with access to the source code could add it
With a good enough coder you can do anything. But this is beamdog we are talking about, they fuck up things that not even a 1st year intern would.

even Obsidian managed to do it (whether or not you think it was any good, they did it, and it's better than dumb companion AI for a lot of people).
Obsidian killed the IP for i dont know how long, the game was bad. Can we stop using nwn 2 as an example of anything but a decent text editor for interactive dialogue?

If Beamdog refuse to implement it themselves but at least unhardcode its potential, you can bank on modders running through walls to make FPC happen.
clear.png

Not that it would matetr, most modules still arent and wouldnt be compatible with that crap, so its largely irrelevant.

2. MotB and PS:T were given as examples of FPC not precluding role-playing focus. If MotB combat is cancer, NWN companion AI is terminal cancer.
Nwn companion AI never bothered me because i never relied on a retarded companion in the first place.
MotB wasnt a personal story anyway, it was more focused on a character that was long dead and your companions that on the player. And PST was a visual novel.

3. Believe what you want. Fact is the best role-playing and combat RPGs employ FPC.
This is a horrible lie. Best roleplaying comes from fallout/AoD (meaning games that are clearly focused on the character and not the party), best combat comes from best mechanics, completely divorced from you controlling a single character or a group of characters.

Giving the player access to companions and not giving them direct and full control of them was an outstandingly bad decision by BioWare
Nope, it wasnt. You know how i know this? because nwn is still alive today while nwn2 only saving grace was that someone wrote something cool to read there.

second only to RTwP implementation for Baldur's Gate.
RTwP was best decision for baldurs gate. RTS was huge at the time and it allowed the game to be embraced by an audience that simply would have not been there for a turn based game. Everything else is your own personal bias.

4. Back in the day, people couldn't believe NWN didn't have FPC.
Back in the day people couldnt believe you could play modules made by your DM with your friends. Then they couldnt believe there where persistent worlds where they could play with different people, then they couldnt believe it was so easy to make their own modules.
Absolutely no one gave a flying fuck about full party controls other than a couple autists.

You weren't around, obviously. On all public venues over the years, I've seen it consistently called for. I really don't care that you think it's just the 'Dex, because it wasn't, isn't and won't be just the 'Dex. Even now, people are calling for it on reddit, GoG and the Beamdog forums. It'll be called for on Steam, too.

Here, take a look at this and take a look at the top-rated comment:
Oh shit, 23 upvotes? alright you won the argument.
You really have no grasp of how many it would take for it to be even a meaningful sample, do you?

Those people are long-time Infinity Engine fans that have been around since Day 1. I know a few of them well.
Alright, so IE fans would have liked full party controls? color me surprised.

5. Way to ignore what I said. While multiplayer, DMing and PWs might have been the initial out-of-touch-with-your-Infinity-fanbase pitch, it thankfully wasn't the only way NWN evolved.
It evolved in the direction it could evolve. We had modules where you commanded armies.

Besides HotU and certain PMP modules (which are not intended for MP), the hundreds of modules listed by me in Core - and referred to by Trent as "megalithic" - speak for themselves.
I have no idea what this is meant to represent. That people used the aurora to make their own modules?

6. FPC should have been there from the start, not just afterthought trickery for companion inventory.
If it was there game would have failed. Theres too much microing from one character to ask for an entire party. And the control scheme which is fairly easy to use with a single character would be a nightmare with a party, especially considering the game was designed to be played without pause. UI cant reconcile this.
Also most people just want to larp their own character, not an entire group. Go play nwn2 if you are so desperate for full party control. The mere existence of nwn2 proves my point beyond any shadow of a doubt, you insisting on beamdog going the extra mile following a failure is p. funny tho.

Anyway, this entire argument is meaningless. You do not alter the gameplay of a classic fundamentally then try to sell it.
I can see it now, citizen kane with lens flares and slow motion, in 3D!
 

mogwaimon

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
Now hold on a minute, I don't see where Lilura is arguing for full party control to be implemented in existing official campaigns. How would implementing a framework for full party control under the hood for the game that isn't some patchwork hack sully the purity of such gems as the NWN OC? It's not like adding some engine support for it will invalidate or break other modules, it will just allow for new modules to incorporate a party in a simpler way. Maybe some of these module creators actually wanted to implement a full party for the player but designed around the engine limitations rather than hack something together?

I don't get it. Many of you shit on Beamdog for releasing their "Enhanced Editions" without doing anything that can't already be done with mods, now that they are actually taking suggestions from the community to implement instead of shitting out yet another low-effort re-release it's suddenly sacrilege? I can understand if it was a normal game that relied on its own merits, but when we're talking about NWN we're talking about an RPG toolset, basically. Custom content is 90% of the reason to play the game.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Yes, NWN is a toolset, I don't see why adding more support for modding is a bad thing.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
We all know the end result would be beamdogs particular brand of shitty and unusable, and represent a huge resource investment that would make no one happy.
Also itd be horrible for gameplay regardless.

The excuse of "optional" does not fly, we all know game development is about compromises, and wed probably suffer the consequences of implementing this shit first hand.
 

Semper

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
747
MCA Project: Eternity
3. Believe what you want. Fact is the best role-playing and combat RPGs employ FPC. Giving the player access to companions and not giving them direct and full control of them was an outstandingly bad decision by BioWare, second only to RTwP implementation for Baldur's Gate.
not two years ago she stood up for the "other side", bashing the multi-headed hydra in favor of roleplaying immersion...
If I want full party control I just play ToEE, Jagged Alliance 2 or the Infinity Engine games. [...] I think there are advantages to controlling one character rather than a "multi-headed monster": a potential for sharper role-playing focus.
what happened? you putting so much hope into beamdog's nwn:ee that changing your preferences just popped up?

@fpc for nwn: simply won't happen. replacing the renderer plus puppet mode were the two big changes obsidian introduced for the sequel. iirc those features did cost a lot of resources, and seem really inappropriate for beamdog's rather sloppy business of making a quick buck. besides, controlling a party will result in the same nagging about the camera nwn2 suffered from.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Ooh, it's almost like this scrubby lil' stalker is trying to pin me on something.

Alas for it (from the Argument write-up):

I've been known to assert this now and again but, at the end of the day, it's just bollocks.

I've argued that full party control and turn-based is where it's at long before you played your first RPG, Oblivion. But even I didn't, people can change their opinions. Also, the "multi-headed monster" was a tribute to Volourn.

Try harder next time.
 
Last edited:

Semper

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
747
MCA Project: Eternity
sry to burst your bubble but i stumbled into this thread by accident while looking for nwn2+formations. just read in an old blog entry about jasperre's mod and wanted to know if it ever saw the light of day. reading your post there and your radical change was amusing is all. especially considering phrases like:
Back in the day, people couldn't believe NWN didn't have FPC. You weren't around, obviously.
The initial vision of NWN was flawed and narrow.
Full party control was called for from day 1
sounds like you really try hard to get across the impression of yourself fighting the good fight since day one.

ps: not that it matters but my first crpg was roa:bod.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
We all know the end result would be beamdogs particular brand of shitty and unusable, and represent a huge resource investment that would make no one happy.
Also itd be horrible for gameplay regardless.

The excuse of "optional" does not fly, we all know game development is about compromises, and wed probably suffer the consequences of implementing this shit first hand.
Resource investment I really don't care, it is Beamdog's money, I don't feel I care much about their finances if they don't offer me a deal I find interesting. We will suffer the consequences how? NWN 1 is a long dead game and even a clunky system like NWN 2 party system would be better than what NWN 1 has for combat. You are talking as if NWN was a such a masterpiece that BeamDog could taint it when that isn't the case. Well, I don't give a fuck because NWN 1 is a utter decline game in comparison with anything that Bioware and Black Isle did before, the only thing worthy thing about it are the few really good modules for it. If it wasn't for the toolset and the modules for it, I would throw it on a pit and forget it existed.
 

Popiel

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 15, 2015
Messages
1,499
Location
Commonwealth
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Can you all please get the fuck out of here with your talk about Beamdog's new hot shit? It was such a nice place for module discussion before you retards came in.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
sry to burst your bubble

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I admitted in my own write-up to occasionally defending full party control omission on those grounds. There are examples of me being for and against FPC on public venues, web-wide; there is nothing wrong with that (mostly agenda-driven arguments with trolls; who cares).

If you choose to believe that a veteran of the Infinity Engine, ToEE, JA2, NWN2 etc. etc. has only been in favor of full party control up until just recently, then that is up to you, scrub.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Can you all please get the fuck out of here with your talk about Beamdog's new hot shit? It was such a nice place for module discussion before you retards came in.

Beamdog are modders according to 99% of the 'Dex.

I am going to rip your module a new asshole if ever you release it.
 

Popiel

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 15, 2015
Messages
1,499
Location
Commonwealth
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
One can feel this is literally the only place where you can act like this :lol: Why so hostile Lil' Lil? Getting triggered by an anonymous poster on the 'Dex? If you ask me, which you won't, you can either go back to writing about modules, because that seems to be the only thing you are at least decent at, or you can shut the fuck up. Tiresome.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
I was actually smiling a friendly smile when I typed that; you really don't know who you're dealing with, do you?

I'm Lilura who gets 70,000 hits per month on a blog that covers mods for a 15 year old game, and you are Popiel the shitposter who gets a couple of emoticons in the NWN thread on the 'Dex. Who is lil' in this sphere again?
 

Popiel

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 15, 2015
Messages
1,499
Location
Commonwealth
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Lil' Lil, I called you that not because of the size of your blog, my dear. I called you that because of how a small and petty human bean you are, and lo and behold - you rushed to prove my point yet again :salute: You indeed are reliable. You presume I do give a single fuck about buttons I receive or something silly like that, or even worse - that I care about how many people read your blog :lol: Just stop being so silly and go back to writing about modules m'lady.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
No need to get defensive, my chewtoy. I'll post on my blog later. For now, I'm having a lil' fun with you.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Aww, let me give you a tickle!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom