I want to enjoy thief, but I can't

[DJOGamer PT]

The main issue I have with the original thief games (1,2) is the whole guards whacking thing. I understand, what thief wouldn't have a blackjack? But the idea of banging all the guards on the head in a level is just ridiculous!
"Why don't you just not bang them then?" You say...
Well, I tried doing that, but I couldn't really do that in the 1st mission of thief 2 wherein you have to escort some lady.

So I was wondering, how viable is the series if you don't whack any guards? Can you even complete them? Is it just that one escort mission?

The fuck you talking about? Thief is one of the very few shealth games that you can complete by truly ghosting all levels. Stop being a casual and git gud.

 

[Zombra]

I feel your pain deama. Thief doesn't do a great job at creating tension; you have to create it yourself. I'm good at "finding my own fun" in games, but it's nicer when the game is actually designed to be fun in the first place.

Thief tries to make you feel tense like "What if I get caught?", but then gives you an I WIN button to remove the very doods that might catch you. I approve of LARPers who choose not to push that button, but that doesn't make its inclusion good design.

 

[deama]

I feel your pain deama. Thief doesn't do a great job at creating tension; you have to create it yourself. I'm good at "finding my own fun" in games, but it's nicer when the game is actually designed to be fun in the first place.

Thief tries to make you feel tense like "What if I get caught?", but then gives you an I WIN button to remove the very doods that might catch you. I approve of LARPers who choose not to push that button, but that doesn't make its inclusion good design.

I'm not entirely sure what they could have done to "fix" this, I'd rather have it not be there, but that would create other problems such as the MC not being very smart for not actually using such a simple yet effective item. I think perhaps they should have just made it really hard to use? Like if a guard doesn't see or hear another guard that is supposed to be there, he'll be on perma high-alert, maybe let the body dropping on the ground from hitting them do a much loader noise(because of the metals or something). I'm kinda disappointed they didn't go that extra mile to make it truly THE stealth game.

This did get me thinking, perhaps there's a mod that implements that guard high-alert thing?

Great game but you'll still find that you have to knock guards out, at least you can interrogate them before doing so and they will light your ass up if you fail to knock them out. Chaos Theory does have a better soundtrack and use of music than Thief and it's lighting engine is superb.

Yes, sadly the knocking-out part is still there, but it's done much better than in thief.

 

[DeepOcean]

Once I started playing Thief, I became very annoyed that I could pile bodies and kill all the guards, I thought what was the point of stealth anyway if you could take all the guards and got mad with the game designers then realized that you could abuse alchemy to be a God at level 1 on Morrowind, that you could take the power armor in Navarro and be indestructible on Fallout 2 and the list of exploits got on and on... there are only three ways of dealing with designer flaws, a) wait until the perfect game happens and be a bitter asshole until then, b) mod the shit out of the game and c)accept it and just don't use the exploits.

Thief 1 and 2 offer alot of the method b and c to deal with butthurt, many player made missions will destroy your ass without lubricant if you are used to pile bodies on the main campaigns and if you don't wanna play custom content, just ignore the blackjack or just use it on extreme situations, it isn't that the game will become unplayable as a stealth game without it, Thief offers a robust stealth system with different fail states and never will punish you too hard for a mistake, on contrary to something like Dishonored 2, you won't be swarmed by the whole Ai team that magically know your position on the level because you were seen for 2 seconds, on the other side of a closed glass door, so don't worry, it won't be a painful experience, you just need to Git Gud on it.

About the larping accusation, a larper isn't someone that refuses to use an exploit or terribly unbalanced mechanic, this is to be reasonable, a LARPER is someone that will only fight with a rusty sword naked because his character is an honorable monk, this is a case of kill with fire.

 

[Zombra]

Thief tries to make you feel tense like "What if I get caught?", but then gives you an I WIN button to remove the very doods that might catch you. I approve of LARPers who choose not to push that button, but that doesn't make its inclusion good design.

I'm not entirely sure what they could have done to "fix" this, I'd rather have it not be there, but that would create other problems such as the MC not being very smart for not actually using such a simple yet effective item. I think perhaps they should have just made it really hard to use? Like if a guard doesn't see or hear another guard that is supposed to be there, he'll be on perma high-alert, maybe let the body dropping on the ground from hitting them do a much loader noise(because of the metals or something). I'm kinda disappointed they didn't go that extra mile to make it truly THE stealth game.

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game. It was (and is) a work of genius. We can complain about AI from back then and so forth but come on.

How to fix it? Yeah, better AI. Guards that communicate, check in with each other, have an actual schedule, etc. and most especially guards that don't just shrug and go back to their patrol 90 seconds after finding a dead body.

About the larping accusation, a larper isn't someone that refuses to use an exploit or terribly unbalanced mechanic, this is to be reasonable, a LARPER is someone that will only fight with a rusty sword naked because his character is an honorable monk, this is a case of kill with fire.

Meh. Either way, you're adjusting your behavior for reasons the game itself doesn't recognize or mechanically encourage. You're LARPing as "a character who doesn't have horribly unbalanced powers" ... because he actually does, you're just not using them because that's not the game you want to play / story you want to tell.

 

[deama]

Great game but you'll still find that you have to knock guards out, at least you can interrogate them before doing so and they will light your ass up if you fail to knock them out. Chaos Theory does have a better soundtrack and use of music than Thief and it's lighting engine is superb.

Once I started playing Thief, I became very annoyed that I could pile bodies and kill all the guards, I thought what was the point of stealth anyway if you could take all the guards and got mad with the game designers then realized that you could abuse alchemy to be a God at level 1 on Morrowind, that you could take the power armor in Navarro and be indestructible on Fallout 2 and the list of exploits got on and on... there are only three ways of dealing with designer flaws, a) wait until the perfect game happens and be a bitter asshole until then, b) mod the shit out of the game and c)accept it and just don't use the exploits.

If you come in fresh into Morrowind or Fallout, you wouldn't have the required knowledge to exploit the game to such a degree, thereby your beginning playthrough wouldn't be tainted in the beginning at least. In Morrowind/Fallout, or even other examples like Arcanum with it's fire axe thing or even Dark souls' drake sword; they require knowledge or voluntary heavy spoiler on the part of the player. Thief on the other hand hands you a blackjack and shows you how much power you have right at the beginning.

Thief tries to make you feel tense like "What if I get caught?", but then gives you an I WIN button to remove the very doods that might catch you. I approve of LARPers who choose not to push that button, but that doesn't make its inclusion good design.

I'm not entirely sure what they could have done to "fix" this, I'd rather have it not be there, but that would create other problems such as the MC not being very smart for not actually using such a simple yet effective item. I think perhaps they should have just made it really hard to use? Like if a guard doesn't see or hear another guard that is supposed to be there, he'll be on perma high-alert, maybe let the body dropping on the ground from hitting them do a much loader noise(because of the metals or something). I'm kinda disappointed they didn't go that extra mile to make it truly THE stealth game.

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game. It was (and is) a work of genius. We can complain about AI from back then and so forth but come on.

How to fix it? Yeah, better AI. Guards that communicate, check in with each other, have an actual schedule, etc. and most especially guards that don't just shrug and go back to their patrol 90 seconds after finding a dead body.

Yes, of course it was THE stealth game, but just pushing it that bit more could have secured it another decade or two on its throne. I suppose you can say that about any game, but the blackjack thing I feel was a big part of the game, they could have at least done a bit more to flesh it out.

 

[DeepOcean]

other examples like Arcanum with it's fire axe thing.

You sir really didn't use the level 1 harm spell did you?

 

[DeepOcean]

because that's not the game you want to play / story you want to tell.

Well, Thief IS a game I want to play, I just didn't like blackjack abuse but all the other elements for a good stealth game were there, robust stealth system, sprawling levels, absolute incredible atmosphere and really good worldbuilding and even the main protagonist is really good, how many stealth games offer this?

It isn't the case of I playing shit like Oblivion and pretending the writing is good, that the characters weren't Down Syndrome potato head rejects, that the art design isn't fucking awful and that every single quest of the game wasn't dumb down and that the roleplaying wasn't excluded and that it didn't play like a third rate action game. Thief is a good game,I don't need excuses to like it.

 

[deama]

other examples like Arcanum with it's fire axe thing.

You sir really didn't use the level 1 harm spell did you?

I think I found out about it when I was reading some post or something about magic vs tech for my 2nd playthrough.

 

[Zombra]

It isn't the case of playing and pretending

That's exactly what it is. You're pretending that the design is in line with the experience you want to have - you enjoy it despite the mechanics.

Thief is a good game,I don't need excuses to like it.

Of course not. I hope you don't think I'm characterizing LARPing as bad, because it isn't. But on the Codex, if you're playing by your own magical rules because it's more fun than "playing to win", you're LARPing. Get comfortable with yourself or you've got a tough road ahead.

 

[Darth Roxor]

imho we should just ban everyone who insults Thief

we don't need this kind of degeneracy around here

 

[Darth Roxor]

also try blackjacking haunts, wraiths, big helmet guards, big bots, zombies and fire elementals, then return to this thread

idiots

 

[Fronzel Neekburm]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

try blackjacking big bots

Works pretty well TBH. Once you hit them, they will usually play a short recoil animation, which gives you just enough time for another swing with the blackjack. Clubbing them to death is surprisingly easy.

I hear the zombies respawn and that some levels are based only around that.

Patently false.

I don't remember any respawning.

There is one exception: Thief Gold added this motherfucker to two levels:

He's unkillable and once he's been weakened enough, he'll drop a fire arrow, run away, despawn and respawn where you first encountered him. He was added to those two missions since the player had to light some torches in these levels and the designers didn't want the player to run out of fire arrows. The addition of a gimmicky, unkillable foe is one of the reasons I consider Thief Gold to be inferior to vanilla Thief. But there are only two of these guys in the entire game, so it's no big deal.

I am missing out.

Yes, you are.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Works pretty well TBH. Once you hit them, they will usually play a short recoil animation, which gives you just enough time for another swing with the blackjack. Clubbing them to death is surprisingly easy.

i know

but it takes a while and the resulting BONK BONK BONK will lure half the level guard corps to you

 

[Zombra]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

Friendly advice, those nostalgia goggles are gonna leave permanent marks if you don't take them off once in a while.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

Friendly advice, those nostalgia goggles are gonna leave permanent marks if you don't take them off once in a while.

fuck off

 

[TripJack]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

Friendly advice, those nostalgia goggles are gonna leave permanent marks if you don't take them off once in a while.

name a better one faggot

 

[Zombra]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

Friendly advice, those nostalgia goggles are gonna leave permanent marks if you don't take them off once in a while.

name a better one faggot

Offhand? Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun. A few of the Hitman games spring to mind as well.

 

[fantadomat]

Well .... in 1998 it was THE stealth game.

It still is THE stealth game. No better one exists. Fact.

Friendly advice, those nostalgia goggles are gonna leave permanent marks if you don't take them off once in a while.

name a better one faggot

Offhand? Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun. A few of the Hitman games spring to mind as well.

 

[Gregz]

You don't have to play Thief like a sperglord in order to enjoy it, that's why it's a great game. There's many different ways to play it, any of which can be satisfying.

Most shit games these days are the opposite, there's only one 'right' way to play it, and you're punished if you play it 'wrong'. Stares at DX:HR.

 

[Roguey]

Most shit games these days are the opposite, there's only one 'right' way to play it, and you're punished if you play it 'wrong'. Stares at DX:HR.

I replayed DX:HR running 'n gunning 'n ignoring hacking and made it through just fine, not caring one whit about all the xp I was missing.

 

[Jazz_]

Play it in supreme ghost mode like that dude on youtube, you need to reload even if a guard just hears your footsteps, now that's hardcore.

 

[Tigranes]

I am totally fine with using a bit of house rules and pretending, in order to enjoy a fundamentally excellent video game.

If you aren't I'm not sure why you're (1) wasting your time playing, (2) playing *games*.

 

[Icewater]

Disclaimer: I love Thief.

Once I started playing Thief, I became very annoyed that I could pile bodies and kill all the guards, I thought what was the point of stealth anyway if you could take all the guards and got mad with the game designers then realized that you could abuse alchemy to be a God at level 1 on Morrowind, that you could take the power armor in Navarro and be indestructible on Fallout 2 and the list of exploits got on and on...

Your two examples are both very clearly exploits, and [especially in the case of Navarro] require metagame knowledge that you won't have at that point unless you've either played the game before or read a guide. Being able to knock everyone out and run around unopposed is the obvious conclusion of the blackjack being unlimited. Blatant exploits vs. basic game mechanics aren't really comparable.

there are only three ways of dealing with designer flaws, a) wait until the perfect game happens and be a bitter asshole until then, b) mod the shit out of the game and c)accept it and just don't use the exploits.

As above, using the blackjack for its intended purpose isn't an exploit. Wanting games to not require "LARPing" to provide challenge might be a high-ish standard, but it's not an unreasonable one, and it's definitely not perfection.

I replayed DX:HR running 'n gunning 'n ignoring hacking and made it through just fine, not caring one whit about all the xp I was missing.

Maybe he was referring to stealth? Most items are geared toward taking down enemies, either lethally or not, and if you don't do that and instead choose to ghost then the overwhelming majority of them become boring to find because they'll be useless to you. A lot of the skills you can unlock have the same problem.

 

[Suburban Sasquatch]

That's because you have no soul. Seriously, it is hard to imagine not enjoying the shit out of Thief, though it is probably a bit different coming into it in 2017 and not back when it came out and being a young guy with time on his hands as was probably typical.

It's OK to jack a few guys. Personally my rule is to keep things moving as much as possible and not let it become too analytical of an affair. That way you have to think on your feet and it does not get boring.