they also die to flash bombs, mines and fire arrows
my fav strategy is running around to form a conga line of all the zombies in a level and then light 'em up
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I want to enjoy thief, but I can't
- Thread starter deama
- Start date
they also die to flash bombs, mines and fire arrows
my fav strategy is running around to form a conga line of all the zombies in a level and then light 'em up
Zombies get temporarily knocked out with the sword, and will stand up again if you disturb them (touching them, being very loud around them) but if you're half-decent at stealthing, taking down a zombie with your swords means he stays on the ground.
SCO
Arcane
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- Feb 3, 2009
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- 16,320
I'm going to call this a 'rpg syndrome'. Apparently you believe that because one of the gameplay modes is significantly harder than the other, not using the easier one 'breaks immersion'.
I guess you're one of those guys that obsesses about build balance in Blizzard games too? Get some self control man.
I guess you're one of those guys that obsesses about build balance in Blizzard games too? Get some self control man.
newtmonkey
Arcane
The mark of a good stealth game (one of the marks) is that it gives you options, some of which are easier, some of which are harder. What I enjoyed most of Thief is that, I could start out wanting to completely ghost the game, but if I screwed up, instead of being immediate game over, I had options to handle the situation. From then on, maybe I could recover and finish the level pure stealth, or maybe not. Or maybe I could fail.
Thief would be an objectively worse game if it was designed to force you to ghost or fail. A great stealth game lets you fuck up and still, if you are skilled/lucky, complete the mission. And then it is so good, that you want to either start the level over and perfect it, or maybe decide to replay it later and set your own conditions.
We are not talking about some turn-based game here where setting your own conditions is larping, Thief is a 100% action game (I mean, under my definition), so a huge part of that is increasing your skill at playing it, compared with the goal of a turn-based game (whether RPG or strategy), which is to figure out the system and break it.
Thief would be an objectively worse game if it was designed to force you to ghost or fail. A great stealth game lets you fuck up and still, if you are skilled/lucky, complete the mission. And then it is so good, that you want to either start the level over and perfect it, or maybe decide to replay it later and set your own conditions.
We are not talking about some turn-based game here where setting your own conditions is larping, Thief is a 100% action game (I mean, under my definition), so a huge part of that is increasing your skill at playing it, compared with the goal of a turn-based game (whether RPG or strategy), which is to figure out the system and break it.
Nooooo! why aren't the helmets on my guards working?! WTF IS EVEN THE POINT IN ME BUYING HELMETS??? WHY DID I EVEN BUY THEM???I'm going to call this a 'rpg syndrome'. Apparently you believe that because one of the gameplay modes is significantly harder than the other, not using the easier one 'breaks immersion'.
I guess you're one of those guys that obsesses about build balance in Blizzard games too? Get some self control man.
I just don't like having such an easy thing dangling around me all the time.
There are knockout-immune guards with heavy helmets in Thief 2 btw, they're supposed to be a special challenge to overcome since you can't rely on your trusty blackjack.
Tigranes
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
- Messages
- 10,350
Yeah, that's your problem. Like savescumming 800 times in front of a single chest with randomised loot then blaming the devs for not stopping you. You chose to play a game called Thief. Play like a thief, and you'll have fun.
No, I'd blame the devs for putting in randomised loot to encourage me to save scum.
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Funny thing I found in my last playthrough: if you attack them until they try to run away, and you let them run away without killing them, they won't try to attack you anymore even if they see you. I felt bad about every single one of those critters that I killed up to that point.
Tigranes
Arcane
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Blame whoever you want, the difference is I either have fun with my games or move on, you sit there either (1) playing in a moronic way like a monkey pressing buttons blaming somebody else for your shitty life, (2) being unable to appreciate masterpieces like Thief.
I'm not blaming anyone that doesn't poke me with a knife; I just want to know how viable the game is if I do decide to fully ghost it because from the first mission I got the impression that it's not very viable. I also wanted to know if there are any thief-like-copies that don't have any guard knockout features.
Tehdagah
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
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- 9,323
Why would he ghost when removing guards is more efficient?I'm going to call this a 'rpg syndrome'. Apparently you believe that because one of the gameplay modes is significantly harder than the other, not using the easier one 'breaks immersion'.
I guess you're one of those guys that obsesses about build balance in Blizzard games too? Get some self control man.
There are no Thief-like games. Except for The Dark Mod, where knocking out guards is much much harder.
Stop rating me dumb I am drunl it is Christmas and I cannot be held responsible fornoy knowing much about a game I have not played ffs
Gregz
Arcane
You have to neutralize patrol routes.
Why not use your bow? A shot to the head kills. I usually slaughter a dozen people in a given mission.
Tigranes
Arcane
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We told you like 80 times FFS that not only is Thief 1/2 viable to ghost, ghosting - or mixing it up with occasional rounds of blackjacking and mayhem - is the far superior way to play.
Of course you can slaughter everyone but I mean you could also eat a McDonalds hamburger with knife and fork if you really wanted to
Of course you can slaughter everyone but I mean you could also eat a McDonalds hamburger with knife and fork if you really wanted to
SCO
Arcane
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- 16,320
I already mentioned that Thief is very viable to ghosting - the fan community of Thief invented the term iirc.
Anyway, if you want to dip your toes into that kind of gameplay, thief is actually superior to most other alternatives because its stealth system is sophisticated enough to permit various degrees of failure. You can do it flawlessly and slow by memorizing patrol routes and sense radius, you can go recklessly and alert AI once or twice to sounds but not be seen, you can lead on AI outside of their patrols with distractions or just your steps, you can escape AI by making routes with rope arrows, you can finally let yourself be seen and alert all of the map in a cascading fashion by being a benny hill stereotype, you can blackjack most enemies, or you can kill absolutely everyone.
Any other game i know that has a stealth system (expecially rpgs) are much harder to ghost since the devs don't bother with degrees of failure and use a hard char stealth skill instead of player skill. You either have the stat and when seen, can be seen across the map (and sometimes even escaping is dubious, by design so combat triggers don't fuck up consistency), or they're actual stealth games with more stringent gameplay or tolerances - see The Dark Mod.
Thief is basically training wheels. Good training wheels but so.
If you're having trouble with ghosting Thief, The Dark Mod will utterly destroy you. If you can't handle simple guard types having slightly different senses, Hitman and its story-relevant disguises and behavior will annoy you. If you can't handle being seen and be able to escape - Deus Ex 'ghosting' where there are no shadows and if you're seen once, that's it, combat scenario until everyone involved is dead - is going to be utterly infuriating.
This later lazy design is very common in third-person or even isometric rpgs, where stealth is more of a faction and quest design thing than something most gamers try constantly. Ironically, a stealth game is almost always easier to ghost than a game that checklists 'stealth' off a list of features. I'm not complaining though, several rpgs i like use that design and still make stealth valuable by allowing it to do things that are not possible otherwise (Geneforge 5) or give extra reward (several quests in Bloodlines).
Anyway, if you want to dip your toes into that kind of gameplay, thief is actually superior to most other alternatives because its stealth system is sophisticated enough to permit various degrees of failure. You can do it flawlessly and slow by memorizing patrol routes and sense radius, you can go recklessly and alert AI once or twice to sounds but not be seen, you can lead on AI outside of their patrols with distractions or just your steps, you can escape AI by making routes with rope arrows, you can finally let yourself be seen and alert all of the map in a cascading fashion by being a benny hill stereotype, you can blackjack most enemies, or you can kill absolutely everyone.
Any other game i know that has a stealth system (expecially rpgs) are much harder to ghost since the devs don't bother with degrees of failure and use a hard char stealth skill instead of player skill. You either have the stat and when seen, can be seen across the map (and sometimes even escaping is dubious, by design so combat triggers don't fuck up consistency), or they're actual stealth games with more stringent gameplay or tolerances - see The Dark Mod.
Thief is basically training wheels. Good training wheels but so.
If you're having trouble with ghosting Thief, The Dark Mod will utterly destroy you. If you can't handle simple guard types having slightly different senses, Hitman and its story-relevant disguises and behavior will annoy you. If you can't handle being seen and be able to escape - Deus Ex 'ghosting' where there are no shadows and if you're seen once, that's it, combat scenario until everyone involved is dead - is going to be utterly infuriating.
This later lazy design is very common in third-person or even isometric rpgs, where stealth is more of a faction and quest design thing than something most gamers try constantly. Ironically, a stealth game is almost always easier to ghost than a game that checklists 'stealth' off a list of features. I'm not complaining though, several rpgs i like use that design and still make stealth valuable by allowing it to do things that are not possible otherwise (Geneforge 5) or give extra reward (several quests in Bloodlines).
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fantadomat
Arcane
Yeah his impossible to take out on hardest difficulty, he have a gas immunity and only way to take him out is by killing him. One of the most thrilling missions was the one in the police station. You were able to knock out only a few of the enemy and that put you on edge.
IIRC, he doesn't have gas immunity and can be knocked out with gas arrows even on expert.
Yep, helmet guards can be KO'd by gas arrows - which are a limited resource so you have to be careful in choosing who to use it on.
fantadomat
Arcane
Ohhh you mean helmed guards,i though about that guy with the scafander on the submarine mission,he was immune to gas.
Arrowgrab
Arbiter
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2016
- Messages
- 604
Just want to add that I happened to replay that mission yesterday and what yo said is only true for Scrub difficulty. Prestigious Expert difficulty (and maybe even Hard, not sure) gives you no blackjack opportunities at all.
fantadomat
Arcane
On hard you had only two blackjacks from what i remember. And you are correct for the expert difficulty. Thief 1 and 2 does have the best difficulty scaling in any game. Don't know why would anyone play on lower difficulty and miss half the objectives. Thief 3 is a good game but sadly the difficulty was mainstreamed and there is no fucking reason to play on highest difficulty.
sullynathan
Arcane
Great game but you'll still find that you have to knock guards out, at least you can interrogate them before doing so and they will light your ass up if you fail to knock them out. Chaos Theory does have a better soundtrack and use of music than Thief and it's lighting engine is superb.
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