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Which game made you give up on Bioware?

The game that made me quit Bioware forever was...


  • Total voters
    596

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Weapon Finesse is fine. High Dex for armor class and +hit ensures that you get your sneak attacks in and if it is too dangerous for melee you are still an reasonably effective ranged fighter. A paltry +1 or +2 damage won't be much of an issue in the face of north of 10d6 sneak attack damage.

Also having high dex and wis is fine if you want to make the monk tanky/evasive. You still get plenty of damage through the unarmed attacks upgrades, quivering palm, etc.
Sneak attacks are useless unless you have a flanker, which means both you and your NPC are in close combat. Plus much of HotU is immune to sneak attacks, from golems to undeads to a frakking demi-lich. That is why a crit fighter is pretty much disadvantaged in the game. It is even WORSE in NWN2, but let's not go there.

The problem with high Dex is that it isn't the advantage it used to be, what with armour restricting your max dex bonus. You generally end up with +9 (excluding armour enhancement bonuses) total combination of Dex and armour bonus. You can wear Bracers of Armour, but in reality, you are better off buffing AC using other means and wear armour for the other abilities. My aforementioned RDD had saves in the teens to low twenties, and AC in the 40s (+1 Dex, +13 armour, +4 perma Haste, +5 def, +4 RDD, +5 natural armour, +2 tumble) by level 20 (and in the OC, not even HotU yet). Add to that the crazy stuff in HotU (particularly the Haste enchantment on the weapon that frees up the boot slot for Boots of the Sun Soul... Use Magical Devices - the reason for Bard instead of Sorcerer for RDD), and that I can swap in a shield instead of dual wielding my longswords, yeah, mid-50s easy if you really want to push it.

Can a Monk match that? Yes. Tumble is the key here. Max it and get 1 AC per 5 ranks. By level 17, you have +4 AC from tumble. Then layer on the other stuff. Dex is good, but not really all that necessary, given how the bonuses stack in NWN (it shouldn't but there you go). I was steamed when they nerfed that in NWN2 :D I don't generally play with a Dex higher than 14 unless I want TWF, then it is 15. No more.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Weapon Finesse is fine. High Dex for armor class and +hit ensures that you get your sneak attacks in and if it is too dangerous for melee you are still an reasonably effective ranged fighter. A paltry +1 or +2 damage won't be much of an issue in the face of north of 10d6 sneak attack damage.

Also having high dex and wis is fine if you want to make the monk tanky/evasive. You still get plenty of damage through the unarmed attacks upgrades, quivering palm, etc.
Sneak attacks are useless unless you have a flanker, which means both you and your NPC are in close combat. Plus much of HotU is immune to sneak attacks, from golems to undeads to a frakking demi-lich. That is why a crit fighter is pretty much disadvantaged in the game. It is even WORSE in NWN2, but let's not go there.

The problem with high Dex is that it isn't the advantage it used to be, what with armour restricting your max dex bonus. You generally end up with +9 (excluding armour enhancement bonuses) total combination of Dex and armour bonus. You can wear Bracers of Armour, but in reality, you are better off buffing AC using other means and wear armour for the other abilities. My aforementioned RDD had saves in the teens to low twenties, and AC in the 40s (+1 Dex, +13 armour, +4 perma Haste, +5 def, +4 RDD, +5 natural armour, +2 tumble) by level 20 (and in the OC, not even HotU yet). Add to that the crazy stuff in HotU (particularly the Haste enchantment on the weapon that frees up the boot slot for Boots of the Sun Soul... Use Magical Devices - the reason for Bard instead of Sorcerer for RDD), and that I can swap in a shield instead of dual wielding my longswords, yeah, mid-50s easy if you really want to push it.

Can a Monk match that? Yes. Tumble is the key here. Max it and get 1 AC per 5 ranks. By level 17, you have +4 AC from tumble. Then layer on the other stuff. Dex is good, but not really all that necessary, given how the bonuses stack in NWN (it shouldn't but there you go). I was steamed when they nerfed that in NWN2 :D I don't generally play with a Dex higher than 14 unless I want TWF, then it is 15. No more.

Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
Honestly, the one thing that gets me about HotU is that you START at Clvl 15. Most PnP campaigns with characters that level or greater are absurd and consist of near-demigod characters running around doing near-demigod stuff, from what I gather. I realize that CRPG "power levels" and PnP "power levels" don't always see eye-to-eye but damn. And then you go into a PW with level 40 characters running around doing insane shit. (Level 40 sorcs and wizards are scary fuckers.)
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
Patron
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
8,450
Location
Smyrna - Scalanouva
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Agree on that part, we mostly quit campaigns at 10 th level if not before.
Unless everyone including the DM were high as fuck ;)
God damn I miss those good'ol days...
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Agree on that part, we mostly quit campaigns at 10 th level if not before.
Unless everyone including the DM were high as fuck ;)
God damn I miss those good'ol days...

I think it is just more demanding to make a good high level campaign. Many just deterioate into fight and beat demi-god/devil after another. That is the problem if your group focuses too much on combat instead of actual RP.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.

How many L20 characters do you know who can hit an AC in the mid-50s on anything but a natural 20?
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.

How many L20 characters do you know who can hit an AC in the mid-50s on anything but a natural 20?

I do not know and frankly do not care because it is beside the point.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.

How many L20 characters do you know who can hit an AC in the mid-50s on anything but a natural 20?

I do not know and frankly do not care because it is beside the point.
Aww... But I was answering your question. Poor thing didn't like the answer, I take it, although the answer was sitting right there when I said that you can get absurd AC even without a massive Dex bonus.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.

How many L20 characters do you know who can hit an AC in the mid-50s on anything but a natural 20?

I do not know and frankly do not care because it is beside the point.
Aww... But I was answering your question. Poor thing didn't like the answer, I take it, although the answer was sitting right there when I said that you can get absurd AC even without a massive Dex bonus.

The biggest problem with getting high AC from a dex bonus is that levels of either Barbarian, Rogue or a PrC like Shadowdancer become necessary for Uncanny Dodge to avoid losing that AC bonus when flatfooted (and unless you watch your character's combat anims and such like a hawk there's a good chance you will have moments where you're FFd). Dex builds are thus pigeonholed into certain class combinations and Barbarian/Monk, as cool as it would be, is generally wildly impractical due to alignment changes being needed. Dexer monks need Rogue or Shadowdancer and Shadowdancer offers many redundant bonus feats for a monk. (Slippery Mind when by monk level 20 you're immune to mind spells? Yippee)
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Dex is its own category of AC gain so there is no "compensation" for it unless you can get AC high enough without it that you cannot be hit by anyone one anything but a natural 20.

Also this does not disprove my point. It is not like you will fail any campaign just because you went high dex/weapon finesse. The game is not that hard and for P&P it is completely meaningless unless you have a pure powergaming group, something I avoid like the plague.

How many L20 characters do you know who can hit an AC in the mid-50s on anything but a natural 20?

I do not know and frankly do not care because it is beside the point.
Aww... But I was answering your question. Poor thing didn't like the answer, I take it, although the answer was sitting right there when I said that you can get absurd AC even without a massive Dex bonus.

Are you really that dense? Or a fucking autist?
 

Atomkilla

Arcane
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
715
It wasn't a game, but a trailer of a game



THIS IS THE NEW SHIIIIIIIIT

Indeed


:despair:



Not trying to defend BioWare here, but aren't trailers responsibility of the publisher? So, EA would be responsible for this piece of shit.

I could be wrong tho


Edit:

I am reminded of this trailer.




I think it's older than "Violence". Seems like the game was early in development, given that pretty much none of the things shown in it are in the game IIRC.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Of course it was the publisher, but it's Biodoctors that eventually sold the whole shebang to EA and became the Sex Scene In A Can factory that we know today.

The violence trailer was also quite prominent in the bu ildup at the time.
 

Nutria

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
2,252
Location
한양
Strap Yourselves In
Those Dragon Age trailers were my first inkling that Bioware was going down the wrong path. They want to have a fantasy IP? Sure. I'm not really into fantasy, but I'll still like it, right? And then I see in the trailers that they're trying to be dark and edgy but incredibly generic and boring at the same time.
 

Atomkilla

Arcane
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
715
IIRC DA:O wasn't bad as a dark fantasy lore-wise. Flavor texts that you found throughout the world painted a different, more interesting picture than the world through which your character was going, which was a problem - especially when the antagonist faction is so bland and one-dimensional, with only few interesting elements. Nonetheless, some of the backstory and lore were pretty good, and some segments of the game also had a great vibe to it.
 

Santander02

Arcane
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
3,363
The thing is, DA:O was already quite a bit into development when Bioware was assimilated into the EA borg legion, so the suits couldn't fuck with it completely ("completely" being the key word here, the endless hordes of derpspawns almost made give up on the damn game) however that trailer perfectly encapsulates the direction Bio was going to go from that point on.
 

mbv123

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2017
Messages
917
Location
Lettland
Dragon Age Origins had one of the most boring lore's I ever had the displeasure of playing through in an RPG. It got to the point when I was just avoiding NPCs because I just couldn't be arsed to have another shitty lore dump character talk my ear off about mind numbingly tedious shit.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
NWN OC really buried em for me.
It did for me too until DA:O. Yes, the world was boring, but I enjoyed some RPG concepts in it. Different starts and their effects on gameplay, choices and consequences etc.

Then I skipped DA2, enjoyed ME except for 3, but DA:I finally put them to bed. I was prepared to give ME:A a go for old times sake, but the MMO and SJW influence got carried over from DA:I and I realized it was dead, jim.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,010
I wish it actually was this edgy and over the top most of the time. Instead it's just 90% bland and boring.

Yeah, that trailer is selling you giant battles, fights with giant monsters like Dragon's Dogma would actually have years later, and a combat system of some kind that has visually interesting animations. That trailer looks like something BioWare should have looked at and said, "Hey, can we let the player actually do all that shit?" especially with their shift to action gameplay with the second game.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
lol @ abandoning bioware over Dragon Age 2, a game where they actually did something original with the story structure and the action gameplay is top notch (unlike 99% of shitty RPGs who try to ape it). Especially compared with how painfully bland DAO was or how awful mass effect is, even by third person shooter standards (the whole genre as a whole probably has one, two good games in it at most). I forgot how awful the general tastes on this board were.
 
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