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What is the appeal of Might and Magic VI?

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,640
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
-If you experience the MM6/7 combat as a dull slog, I guess it's just not the game for you. But being able to bypass what makes of 50% of the game is not what I'd call better designed.

I agree that 'bypassing combat' is a silly thing to tout. All M&M games are designed for you to systematically exterminate every living thing from top to bottom, and that's how I play them.

One thing people tend to forget is I don't rate this game in a vacuum, I rate it in terms of how I received it when it came out. Going from XEEN to M&M6 was a colossal disappointment. Party size reduced from 6 to 4, classes reduced from 10 to 6, races removed. The skill system doesn't even come close to making up for it. The XEEN games moved and played blazing fast, M&M6 feels like being stuck in mud. That's decline.

I still think the balance is garbage. Most RPGs have a nice feeling of progression throughout the game, but M&M6 plateaus off long before the endgame. Weapon upgrades are pretty linear and don't provide enough damage increase to keep up with mob HP bloat, and neither do skills. By the end of the game you really can't go toe-to-toe with ANY group of monsters, especially when they are spamming one-shot kill effects as rapid as you can attack. I believe they made the endgame enemies so hard to encourage use of the laser guns, which do solve most of the scaling problems. But there is a really long gap between getting the best melee weapons and finding the guns, and it includes some absolutely grueling dungeons. The spells have the same problem, in that most of them don't scale for shit. Healing spells become all but worthless part way through the game, unless you love the tedium of casting heal spells 50 times after every single fight. Yes, fly and meteor shower are great, but they only work outside.

M&M7 fixed all of this mostly with the Grandmaster skill level, which provides the necessary scaling bump to take on the top-tier enemies, usually by "doubling previous bonuses." The fact that they had to double the numbers to bring weapons and spells in line with the enemies alone should prove M&M6 just doesn't provide enough scaling potential for high level combat. That along with better items overall with more damage numbers on high tier items makes the progression curve far smoother and less frustrating than before. It does have the effect of making the guns less awesome at the end, but freeing the player from having to always rely on one weapon type at the endgame regardless of party comp is only a good thing.

M&M6 was a new engine with new systems so its understandable they didn't fully test the math. I suppose in the world of internet dick-waving competitions you can argue it's superior for the higher challenge level alone, but in comparison to the previous games the massive increase in difficulty--mostly through extreme tedium--was quite a shock.

I do agree that M&M7 probably made the skills too restrictive with some skills being all but mandatory despite being available to only a few specific classes. You either need a thief, or if you're going Dark you can get away with a monk, but lacking those two classes means you'll have real problems opening any chests. Most players are familiar with the concept of dumping a party member just for trap disarming and lock picking, but that dates back to wizardry games with the 6-man roster. On a 4-man team it does feel pretty restrictive to have to have a thief. Luckily the M&M7 thief is a combat badass so it's not like you're suffering for it, but it does reduce the overall depth of party choices. I still think this is preferable to every class being pretty much the same in M&M6 with the only meaningful choice being whether you want them to have mage or cleric spells.
 
Last edited:

gunman

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,050
Never understood the praise of M&M6. It's very rough, imbalanced, overly grindy, and scales horrendously at high levels. The later dungeons are a massive chore.

It's the BG1 to the BG2 of M&M7:

-More classes
-Actual race choices
-Skills/spells scale properly
-Better items
-Class choices matter
-Spells more balanced by classes
-Better game progression/combat balance
-Light/dark choice replay value
-Vastly less of a dull slog

And Arcomage!

:thumbsup:

The first thing I do when I enter a new town is head straight to the inn to win that game
 

Gimble

Educated
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Messages
106
On a 4-man team it does feel pretty restrictive to have to have a thief.

A no thief run is possible in MM7, it just forces you to figure out a different way to deal with traps - hire npc with disarm skill, buff up with preservation and regeneration and tank the damage... all until you get telekinesis.

The combat bypass is a roleplaying feature more than anything else. If role playing a light party, you don't want to needlessly kill certain kinds of enemies. IIRC, there is at least one situation where combat does not grant XP, with corridors filled with higher level enemies that are better to avoid rather than exterminate. Just an added bonus to be able to simply use it to save time from many unfulfilling fights that you are 100% guaranteed to win.
 
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fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
-If you experience the MM6/7 combat as a dull slog, I guess it's just not the game for you. But being able to bypass what makes of 50% of the game is not what I'd call better designed.

I agree that 'bypassing combat' is a silly thing to tout. All M&M games are designed for you to systematically exterminate every living thing from top to bottom, and that's how I play them.

One thing people tend to forget is I don't rate this game in a vacuum, I rate it in terms of how I received it when it came out. Going from XEEN to M&M6 was a colossal disappointment. Party size reduced from 6 to 4, classes reduced from 10 to 6, races removed. The skill system doesn't even come close to making up for it. The XEEN games moved and played blazing fast, M&M6 feels like being stuck in mud. That's decline.

I still think the balance is garbage. Most RPGs have a nice feeling of progression throughout the game, but M&M6 plateaus off long before the endgame. Weapon upgrades are pretty linear and don't provide enough damage increase to keep up with mob HP bloat, and neither do skills. By the end of the game you really can't go toe-to-toe with ANY group of monsters, especially when they are spamming one-shot kill effects as rapid as you can attack. I believe they made the endgame enemies so hard to encourage use of the laser guns, which do solve most of the scaling problems. But there is a really long gap between getting the best melee weapons and finding the guns, and it includes some absolutely grueling dungeons. The spells have the same problem, in that most of them don't scale for shit. Healing spells become all but worthless part way through the game, unless you love the tedium of casting heal spells 50 times after every single fight. Yes, fly and meteor shower are great, but they only work outside.

M&M7 fixed all of this mostly with the Grandmaster skill level, which provides the necessary scaling bump to take on the top-tier enemies, usually by "doubling previous bonuses." The fact that they had to double the numbers to bring weapons and spells in line with the enemies alone should prove M&M6 just doesn't provide enough scaling potential for high level combat. That along with better items overall with more damage numbers on high tier items makes the progression curve far smoother and less frustrating than before. It does have the effect of making the guns less awesome at the end, but freeing the player from having to always rely on one weapon type at the endgame regardless of party comp is only a good thing.

M&M6 was a new engine with new systems so its understandable they didn't fully test the math. I suppose in the world of internet dick-waving competitions you can argue it's superior for the higher challenge level alone, but in comparison to the previous games the massive increase in difficulty--mostly through extreme tedium--was quite a shock.

I do agree that M&M7 probably made the skills too restrictive with some skills being all but mandatory despite being available to only a few specific classes. You either need a thief, or if you're going Dark you can get away with a monk, but lacking those two classes means you'll have real problems opening any chests. Most players are familiar with the concept of dumping a party member just for trap disarming and lock picking, but that dates back to wizardry games with the 6-man roster. On a 4-man team it does feel pretty restrictive to have to have a thief. Luckily the M&M7 thief is a combat badass so it's not like you're suffering for it, but it does reduce the overall depth of party choices. I still think this is preferable to every class being pretty much the same in M&M6 with the only meaningful choice being whether you want them to have mage or cleric spells.
Soooo the game is shit because you suck at it?! Are you 12? MM6 have the most decimate spell system of all the MM games because everyone can be a master. Do you have any idea of what destruction can be done with three buffed mages and a health bank knight and fire blast as a quick spell in close range? You can wipe out the whole sand area and only resting a few times. Do you have any idea of what three mages in a dungeon with haste and sparks do??? Who the fuck will use blasters when you have magic? You can wipe the zod colony without resting. A good way to heal and restore mp without loosing buffs and time is to just lloyd's beacon to New Sorpigal and heal at the temple,then lloyd's beacon back to the dungeon.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
It was a boring game. One of the most disappointed M&M after M&M9 and 8.
052c2017ee54f77e29a099fb5ad14964a5defa-wide-thumbnail.jpg
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
All the old M&M games have shitty combat, you should avoid them. Codex can be very misleading because lots of people here are storyfags and like exploring virtual worlds in CGA.

M&M X Legacy is worth a play though. World is smaller than the other games, but at least it has decent combat.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
I played 6 7 8 and a bit of 9, I think the combat was terrible in all of them. It was just too fast, everything died in seconds, I could put a bow on all my characters and most stuff died with just a bow twang. Rarely got to use magic and even then it wasn't very satisfying. Basically like op described. V disappointing. I think MMX was 100 times better.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
13,999
Location
Platypus Planet
I can definitely see the appeal in MM6, and I try to get into it once every year, but I always get bored pretty fast. It just doesn't have that something that MM7 & 8 have that grab me in. The monster spam in MM6 is definitely a contributing factor for me getting fatigue with the game fast, even if I try to use cheese tactics like a party of mages with Ring of Fire. 8 might be my favorite game in the 6-7-8 trilogy. I love the oddball classes in it. Each class/race/whatever feels like it has a distinct personality, even though sometimes it leads to unfortunate situations like the Minotaur who is woefully crap, although none of these games are so hard that you'd ever be in any kind of no win scenario.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
I played 6 7 8 and a bit of 9, I think the combat was terrible in all of them. It was just too fast, everything died in seconds, I could put a bow on all my characters and most stuff died with just a bow twang. Rarely got to use magic and even then it wasn't very satisfying. Basically like op described. V disappointing. I think MMX was 100 times better.
Go and suck on a lollypop filled with razors faggot! Fucking oxygen wasters!
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
Eh, I liked MM6 because...
* It was fun
* Lots to do
* Lots of ways to play
* Lots of ways to mess up (killing citizens, experimenting with potions, getting surrounded)
* Just when you get comfortable with the game, they add the Light and the Dark. Then they made the evil characters seem to revel in being evil, making your standard RPG good play-through look pretty lame.
* You could really, really plan your party or you could just take the defaults
* Lots of random NPCs that actually did something for your party, that would compliment how you wanted to play
* Game long quests that were purely optional, but hard to walk away from (what, people ended the game only finding 14 obelisks?)
* Made you want to play deeper for water walk, teleport, fly, and some of the more powerful spells
* Made you want to play again. Made you take some notes (if you didn't want to knock on EVERY door).

IN the end, they took, the Might and Magic series in the right direction. They maintained the humor and rpg elements, while trying to bridge the gap to newer games. Had some actual choices that made everyone want to play the game at least twice. Most people played the game quite a bit more.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yeah i have played trough them both at least 20 times. Around Christmas i do decide to give it a nice play. Killing mobs is the half the fun of the game. It is like buying a FPS and whining that there is too much shooting in it.

I prefer tactical or at least thoughful combat and alternative solutions (if possible) over mindlessly killing mobs. Which is also why HOMM is a lot better if you actually care about combat.
OR Might and Magic X Legacy. Now that's a real gem!
 

ilitarist

Learned
Illiterate Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 17, 2016
Messages
857
I hope Haplo isn't ironic because it's true.

I've tried M&M around the time of release starting with M&M7 and it always felt lacking in gameplay, especially compared to sibling series Heroes of Might & Magic.

MMXL is good stuff.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I played 6 7 8 and a bit of 9, I think the combat was terrible in all of them. It was just too fast, everything died in seconds, I could put a bow on all my characters and most stuff died with just a bow twang. Rarely got to use magic and even then it wasn't very satisfying. Basically like op described. V disappointing. I think MMX was 100 times better.
Now you speak sense. You could try 3-5 sometime, they were much better then the 6-8 abominations. Much simpler tactics-wise then X, but the world was rich and colorful.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
Yeah i have played trough them both at least 20 times. Around Christmas i do decide to give it a nice play. Killing mobs is the half the fun of the game. It is like buying a FPS and whining that there is too much shooting in it.

I prefer tactical or at least thoughful combat and alternative solutions (if possible) over mindlessly killing mobs. Which is also why HOMM is a lot better if you actually care about combat.
OR Might and Magic X Legacy. Now that's a real gem!
Go and suck you mom's dick you retarded midget shit tosser! There should be a taste test at registration to stop shiteaters like you.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Appeal of MM VI? Not much to say here. Well, it's big. Someone mentioned it has nice music. That about sums it up.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
Appeal of MM VI? Not much to say here. Well, it's big. Someone mentioned it has nice music. That about sums it up.
Off to the sacrificing alter! I am sure that Tsantsa will be happy with your godless soul!
 

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