Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[fantadomat]

fluent do you have some kind of fetish for long posts? You write tooooo much mate!

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

fluent do you have some kind of fetish for long posts? You write tooooo much mate!

My bad. Just stream of thought while I feel motivated enough to post it.

 

[Trashos]

You criticized him just when he wrote one of his better thought out posts in his history on the Codex.

 

[fantadomat]

You criticized him just when he wrote one of his better thought out posts in his history on the Codex.

Didn't read it,far too long. Most of his posts are essays. Nothing bad with it,just not my cup of tea.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

I don't want to post much more about this game until I beat it (I feel I'm close), but a few quick things.

I'm sad that it almost seems to be over. I want more. In general I think it's a modern classic and a worthy successor to Planescape (don't stop reading, hear me out), if a bit flawed in some ways. Believe it or not, I don't feel there's as much surprise in Tides as there was in Planescape. Having played Planescape a few months back, it seemed I was never sure what to expect at any moment. Being in The Bloom I feel like it's more formulaic now. There's less surprises overall than Planescape. A bit too much hand-holding for my tastes.

I would tone down the overall density of areas like Sagus Cliffs and the Bloom, to open up more exploration of other areas. Miel Avest should have been expanded more. In general, I would have preferred much larger areas. The maps feel small, and even though there's plenty of interaction, there's almost too much. Expand the maps by 300% or more. Spread out the interaction more. Add more generic NPCs to make it feel more alive to make the areas not seem empty with the added space. Right now it's too dense and gives the game a sort of cramped feeling. The Bloom is deep and vast, it should feel much bigger. Sagus Cliffs felt like a small settlement rather than a big city.

Next, the item interaction. I would like to have seen more mutually exclusive Oddity items. Perhaps tie some of the Oddities to the ending as well, or to a later place in the game, so if you decide to sell them for shins that would be a legit option to help you buy more useful gear. But if you challenged yourself to keep them until the end, maybe a little bit of something cool would happen. A endgame screen that shows you returning the Jalley to the fountain, or it jumping around you or something (goofy example, but you get the idea.) Or entering an area 20 hours later that has a pond of those starfish creatures and the one you're carrying wants to go home with them. Little things like that add more surprise, charm, interest and makes the overall game feel less formulaic.

I would also tone down the overall amount of Oddities by about 30-35%. Make the remaining ones have more interactions and odd surprises. And save some Oddity experiences for if your character is Specialized+ in Tidal Affinity or something, or some other skill. More mutual exclusion which means that several runs with the game would yield different Oddities and you wouldn't see most of the interactions in a single play (and I know there is likely some of that already, as I passed on plenty of Oddities via role-playing choices or failed Effort checks. I still ended up with a boatload of them, hoarded in my inventory, most seemingly useless.) More uniqueness with those on a gameplay level would be great, too, such as ones that confer more unique traits and traits or skills that could be hidden. Maybe the little pez dispenser guy in the Bloom could teach you the language of his people [lol] and it would have a small interaction or two later in the game in a hard-to-find spot. Surprises and most importantly SECRETS like that really take these types of RPGs to the next level.

What else. Combat. Needs to be a lot harder. Again, I'm hoarding Cyphers all game, barely using them and my characters are rocking the enemies that you do face. The Crises that are there are generally pretty great. I loved several of them. That idea certainly has a bunch of potential, too. For Cyphers, maybe tone down the sheer number of Cyphers in general and use that focus to improve Oddities, other equipment and the Crises themselves.

Merecasters. I love these. I would play an entire RPG that has the character development of Tides and more fleshed-out Merecasters as the exclusive gameplay, i.e. just "more" overall Mere gameplay, like a very in-depth RPG Choose Your Own Adventure book (which are underlooked games IMO. There's some cool ones out there right now.) So more beautiful art screens, more depth and just expand on that idea more. As they are in Tides, they are great, easily one of my favorite aspects of the game. It would be cool if they had more noticeable affect on the game, too. I know they can change memories of some characters, and perhaps I will have to play several more times to notice those differences more, but it seems like it could have had more impact on the game in general. Again, I haven't beaten it yet, but I did just see an interaction in The Bloom with several characters from previous Meres, and it was a wee bit underwhelming.

Anyway, what else. The reflections in The Labyrinth are a bit underwhelming. Almost pointless, but I can see why they added them to sort of break things up a little bit there and give you unexpected character boosts with those. Again, kind of formulaic feeling, though.

I loved what they did with The Necropolis. I like those sorts of weird curveballs that break up the gameplay to make it feel like, "Oh, something weird is happening in this area that feels totally different GAMEPLAY and EXPLORATION-wise from the rest of the game. Neat." And that sort of quote goes for every feature in games like this.

Example, Planescape, when Morte gets kidnapped. It's like, wow. Didn't see that coming! There's all sorts of just weird, non-formulaic surprises in that game. You could get mazed by The Lady of Pain for saying or doing the "wrong" things. My complaint in Planescape was also similar, though. I would have liked to have seen more secret portals, i.e. doors, from The City of Doors. Maybe you were holding some unknown-at-the-time-to-be-a-key item, you walk in some area and oh, it reacts! Opens a portal to some secret area. Stuff like that these games benefit just so much from. Sort of unscripted, rewarding of exploration type things. Unscripted is important, so that it doesn't feel like a quest guided you there, but rather your own choices just made something interest react and happen in the world. But Planescape overall seemed to have more surprises like that. Gameplay elements that stood out from the rest of the game (stats being increased to Godlike levels, which was unexpected. There was lots of those surprises.)

I dunno. I know I'm picking on a lot of things here, but I do love the game. Maybe not quite as much as Planescape yet, but it's up there. I feel like the sequel, given a bit more budget and time cooking (fat chance of that now, I guess, but eh) would be really something. I feel like areas of Tides are undercooked, sadly, but I understand. Making a game like this must have been very difficult. I do love these reactive, interactive type of RPGs even if they are very text-heavy (never would mind that if the writing is fine), and hope to see more like them in the future.

I may jump over to Arcanum next, or Fallout 2 and play more of those. Or another Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines run.

Any suggestions for what to play next?

If you can't start a new play on Tides of Numenera I would recommend Arcanum.
I really enjoyed T:ToN and mainly because of reactivity and the fact that story is not 100h long, so you can start anew character to see different outcomes. Achievements are also a good guide for the player to see everything in the game.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

If you can't start a new play on Tides of Numenera I would recommend Arcanum.
I really enjoyed T:ToN and mainly because of reactivity and the fact that story is not 100h long, so you can start anew character to see different outcomes. Achievements are also a good guide for the player to see everything in the game.

I'll probably go with Arcanum, or maybe another run of PS:T. Or perhaps the whole BG trilogy including Siege of Dragonspear, which I haven't played yet (heard it's got pretty good combat actually.)

And you say it's not 100 hours, but I'm at 75 now according to Steam. :D It's way more than I expected, that's for sure.

 

[Grotesque]

(don't stop reading, hear me out)

How can someone take you seriously when ou have these

under your name?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

(don't stop reading, hear me out)

How can someone take you seriously when ou have these

under your name?

True. They should be removed immediately. Moderators!

 

[Jaesun]

Moderators can't add or remove peoples tags.

 

[fantadomat]

Moderators can't add or remove peoples tags.

To whom i have to go to get a new red tag?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Just finished it at around 80 hours or so. Great game. Might just say screw it and start another run with different characters.

Can someone briefly tell me if the game is as complex as I think it is, in that multiple playthroughs are going to yield at least somewhat interesting differences like in Planescape or VtM:B? Be honest, too, and save the Codeginess (Codex + edginess) for another post.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

Just finished it at around 80 hours or so. Great game. Might just say screw it and start another run with different characters.

[...] and save the Codeginess (Codex + edginess) [...]

 

[fantadomat]

Just finished it at around 80 hours or so. Great game. Might just say screw it and start another run with different characters.

Can someone briefly tell me if the game is as complex as I think it is, in that multiple playthroughs are going to yield at least somewhat interesting differences like in Planescape or VtM:B? Be honest, too, and save the Codeginess (Codex + edginess) for another post.

You really like it?! And you were not drunk as cossack during this 80 hours?!

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Just finished it at around 80 hours or so. Great game. Might just say screw it and start another run with different characters.

Can someone briefly tell me if the game is as complex as I think it is, in that multiple playthroughs are going to yield at least somewhat interesting differences like in Planescape or VtM:B? Be honest, too, and save the Codeginess (Codex + edginess) for another post.

You really like it?! And you were not drunk as cossack during this 80 hours?!

I can't divulge that information. But yes I liked it. Loved it even. Flaws and all (of which there are quite a few.) Sucks to think there probably won't be a sequel because improvements can be made. Lots of promise in those systems IMO.

I'm just wondering if I should do a second run now, or play something else. Curious if I'd see a lot of differences in the second run.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

There won't be big differences in other plays but you can have different outcomes and lines of text based on different choices. For example you can try becoming the new memovira or changing God.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[One Stoned Bastard]

I had already forgotten everything about this game including the title. Not exactly the most memorable game I've played. Well, I do remember the levels themselves or at least their design rather vividly now that I think about it.

 

[KevinV12000]

I set this game aside after taking it for an initial spin and being very turned off by the writing. After a long time on the shelf, I returned to it late last week as an illness kept me home for a long stretch. I resolved to set my issues with the writing aside and move forward. Glad I did. Here is my take after about 20 hours in:

-- The setting is an interesting change from the usual, though the city should have more normal citizens going about their business. It seems like every character on the screen is in the middle of an immense existential crisis instead of, you know, popping out for a little shopping. Sigil had lots of normal folks going about. The effect can be daunting if every character on the screen is an immense amount of interaction.

-- That said, its numenera/Ninth World setting is intriguing and well thought out. In the beginning, I thought the Order of Truth was especially well-done, with good characters at their HQ and a good opening quest. Gamers love getting passed a barred door they've been wondering about for awhile--Wizardry used to do this a lot, like a gate you encounter in the first half hour not capable of being opened until tens of hours of game time later.

-- I love the levels plus tier character level up system. It's a great change from the usual. Modest level gains with big leaps in ability at the tiers really is satisfying, like you've worked to advance your guy. The skill system is well done, and I love the abilities. Having Lore in machinery has made a huge difference, as has Scan Thoughts.

-- Actual spells themselves, though, are bland. I loved PS:T's take on old DnD standards, and wish more had been done here to come up with interesting new spells. Cyphers, on the other hand, are great. Love them. They probably should be a bit more rare, however. Negative consequences from artifacts, also great, as you really have to think about using them. Makes Concentration a very valuable skill, reinforcing, again, a sense of accomplishment and advancement as a character.

-- The Last Castoff's look is just awful, even worse if she's a woman. I understand not having control over the appearance of the character given the concept--The Nameless One was done the same way--but if you're going to do that make the main character look a bit better than a gay Filipino busboy/just-escaped Chemo therapy librarian.

-- Writing and over all style...well, shit. "TRYHARD" is the modern term I'm coming up with to describe it. It's over-wrought, as if the dialogue was written by a college junior with a computerized thesaurus at hand. Had they toned it down a bit and been a bit more punchy in their writing they would have achieved their goal in more nuanced manner.

-- Combat is fun, contrary to my expectation. It's a bit unnerving to be able to move around so freely among enemies without consequence, but once I understood the system, it was enjoyable.

-- The obvious "consolization" of this game is unforgivable and really inXile's biggest failure on this front. This should be a PC-only game. The console-imposed limitations on size, the dumbing down of icons and inventory, etc. are all a consequence of that decision, and, guess what? Console players didn't like it anyway. It's like taking a good jazz band and telling them to do nothing but Justin Timberlake covers. You've pissed off the real fans and the pop fans still hate your guts, so why ruin it?

 

[Infinitron]

The rise of G Ziets Tumblr:

 

[Andhaira]

Tyranny on the other hand was cancer.

What do you think about Torment? I wanted it for the turnbased but the reviews and impressions left me really sour.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah it's a shame about the Bloom. It had promise. If they had made that the core of the game as well as the starting area and built outwards from that, it might've been a whole different ball game. (And gotten competent artists and sound designers to bring it to life ofc.)

 

[Roguey]

I skipped past http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-03-14-the-making-of-torment-tides-of-numenera the first time around because I didn't want to be spoiled, but reading through it recently, it's funny to see exactly how they lost all that money they wasted.

"The player still falls from the sky, lands in a junk heap, gets picked up by a guy called the Clock Maker, who sort of rebuilds you and nurses you back to health. You head up to an aldeia [a village], you meet some Aeon Priests who tell you about the Sorrow that's chasing you. You board The Catena, the one that crashed into the Bloom, and you take it and you crash it into the Bloom.

"You do some Bloom stuff and you climb up the mountain to Sagus Cliffs, and you do a whole bunch of Sagus Cliffs stuff. You travel from there along the shores of the sea. You hit the Valley of Dead Heroes, you go into a library, then you go into the Castoff compound and that's when the Sorrow comes in. And from there you take an airship up to the Oasis, and from the Oasis you head over to Ossiphagan, and from Ossiphagan you had to..."

It was bam, do a thing, bam, do another thing, bam, etc. Your motivation was always to go somewhere else, never explore, never get to know an area as with the city of Sigil in Planescape: Torment. "If we could make a 200-300-hour game it would be cool," Heine jokes. But they couldn't so it had to be trimmed.

"We went through seven or eight really major iterations," says McComb, "and each time the pace and experience and the delivery of everything we were trying to convey became much more focused and concise."

It's delightful how Pillars of Eternity just had the one draft with minor editing and Tides of Numenera went through eight, yet the outcome was more less the same when it comes to reception on the Codex. Perhaps what Ziets said about Dungeon Siege III also applies here.

So at that point, I started a long cycle of story revisions. Normally, the iteration process is where your story gets progressively stronger. But in this case, I remember feeling that we’d ended up with a weaker, more watered-down story than some of the earlier versions.

Otherwise, it's "We did eight takes and that was the best one "--Colin

Originally, you were going to meet the Changing God, and come face to face for a showdown. "You were going to finally meet him at the House of Empty Time," says McComb. "We salvaged that into something else. It was originally his home on an eyrie some place. And you and the First [Castoff] would both be transported there and you were essentially trying to get through his futuristic fortress as he's trying to [race] you back to where the Resonance Chamber crashed. There would have been a great big confrontation there. But again, it was wildly ambitious and way out of scope."

Back then The Specter was intended as something unrelated. "The Specter was originally going to be a memory virus," he says, "growing and taking shape in your head, and would eventually be born into the real world." But then someone said, "Well what if the Changing God actually didn't get driven out of your body?" And then came the question-slash-realisation, "Holy shit! What if The Specter is actually the Changing God?!'"

Originally the First Castoff was different too. She isn't actually the first Castoff at all. "She's definitely not," says McComb. "One of the original ideas for her is that she went around hunting down older Castoffs to eliminate them." Consider the Changing God is several thousand years old and the First Castoff is several hundred years old, and that the Changing God casts off a body every couple of decades, and there must have been many Castoffs by the time the so called First awoke.

What's more, the First Castoff was nearly someone else, someone close to you. Not Callistege, which was my guess, but Matkina, your Castoff assassin pal. "The original design for Matkina had Matkina as the First," reveals McComb, "because she was an assassin in the shadows and her name was derived from the Vietnamese word for 'mask', 'mat na'. We also discovered 'matkina' means 'mother's' in Slovak, and thought that was a cool extra layer of meaning."

Talking of meres, they were originally going to be fully realised scenes rather than picture book interactions, and the team used to refer to them as Quantum Leaps!

Beside Riastrad, Satsada and Oom there were companions who weren't as developed. In the original conception, The Specter was one, would you believe. There was a crippled beggar, too, who had a floating cart and collected numenera, the mysterious magical items of the world. The beggar went quite far through development, as first a companion then a major NPC, then a minor NPC, then "he sort of slid on out of the game", says McComb. "The problem with him was we looked at the party composition and we were like, 'Crap, we're overloaded on nanos.'"

The Oasis - The Oasis of M'ra Jolios to give it its full name - was to be a huge aquatic dome of a city in the middle of a desert, and the game's second major hub. It was a $4m stretch goal but it never made it in. Well actually that's not correct - it sort of did. Right at the end of the game you can visit a small part of the Oasis in a Fathom portal in your mind labyrinth. It's the Fathom you swim around in, as you would have the Oasis.

"See, the swimming was really cool but it was also a lot of trouble," says Heine. "If you watch carefully when you're in that scene, you'll notice that a lot of animations you have [normally], you suddenly don't have - which is not noticeable in that Fathom because it's a very short time and there's no combat in it.

"We were like, 'OK, well, we could build this up into a big city and make the game extra long at the cost of the Bloom and Sagus and all of this other stuff we have in, or we could streamline it and make what we have in here a lot better.' The Bloom, especially the Bloom Depths, would not have been what they are if we had kept the Oasis - it would have been a really tiny scene without a big battle."

Nevertheless, the Oasis went through a lot of design, says Heine, and had several areas and its own faction. Whether it will return is a trickier prospect. "I don't think the Oasis will come back as DLC, though some of us hope maybe we could do an expansion or something," he says. "Who knows? I wouldn't hold up my hopes."

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey As I've said, as much as people like hating on "con artist Fargo", it's hard to read this stuff as anything but an indictment of the project director - an experienced professional who should have known enough to prevent the game's development from careening out of control before it happened.

It was bam, do a thing, bam, do another thing, bam, etc. Your motivation was always to go somewhere else, never explore, never get to know an area as with the city of Sigil in Planescape: Torment. "If we could make a 200-300-hour game it would be cool," Heine jokes. But they couldn't so it had to be trimmed.

"We went through seven or eight really major iterations," says McComb, "and each time the pace and experience and the delivery of everything we were trying to convey became much more focused and concise."

I mean really, this is crazy. You made Mask of the Betrayer, how do you even allow a project to start off like this? Fuck.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Lmao what the fuck? This reads like they all just started every meeting snorting lines of cocaine arranged into swastikas on McCombs bald head, and then Saunders would stand on the table, pull out his cock and give Wolf of Wall Street style speech encouraging everyone to think outside of the box and throw around their wildest ideas.

Sriously, that shit is hilarious. This isn't a how you run a video game project , this is how you run an asylum.

 

[Nano]

Infinitron, I think you got your quotes a bit messed up there. That last bit is a quote from Ziets talking about Dungeon Siege 3: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/poll-obsidians-worst-rpg.113746/page-7#post-4997560

 

[Prime Junta]

There's something about T:ToN names that intensely irritates me. It's like they're random syllables, or maybe anagrams of something. Many of them even sound better backwards. Riastrad and Satsada for example.