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Which game made you give up on Bioware?

The game that made me quit Bioware forever was...


  • Total voters
    596

The Dutch Ghost

Arbiter
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
681
Mass Effect 3 though looking back I should probably have quit after Mass Effect 1 (even though I like parts of Mass Effect 2)
I like some of the world building that was done in it and it would have been nice if the side missions-exploration part had been done better and improved upon in ME2 instead of cutting it out completely.
But I recently replayed Mass Effect 1 again (and tried ME2) again only to realize even more than before how bland and boring the characters and their dialogue are and that the main storyline is in general really badly set up or worked out (there is no good build up towards the whole "Every 50.000 years all major galactic civilizations are destroyed and harvested by self aware machines) as it is quickly revealed a couple of hours in the start of the game.
And we all know how that storyline was continued in ME2 and 3.

I probably should also not have played KOTOR but if I hadn't I would not have understood a lot of the background of KOTOR2.

I never ever want to touch one of their games again.
 

Lagole Gon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
7,279
Location
Retaken Potato
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
There's a funny thing from DA2 that bothers me to this day.

Boats.

latest

They do have boats in Canada, right?
 
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Tito Anic

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
Magalan
Basically played and beat all Bioware games till Jade Empire... but Mass Effect was the final nail in the coffin.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
1,386
You know how some people think "if you can't enjoy XYZ game then there's something wrong with your RPG credentials", normally, round here, that will be Fallout or PS:T or Gothic or whatever, well, one of mine is Hoards of the Underdark. I am honestly at a complete loss as to why someone who loves RPGs can't enjoy that game.
Because, prior to Bioware's RTwP antics, some people played good implementations of AD&D mechanics in the form of Goldbox, Darksun and ToEE. It's difficult to enjoy mutton when you've just eaten steak. Hoards of the Underdark has it's virtues, but it's a poor implementation of the AD&D systems.
 

mbv123

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2017
Messages
917
Location
Lettland
Only Bioware games that I enjoyed were KOTOR I and ME 1. Dragon Age is so boring and generic that I just don't care about it. ME turned to shit when it abandoned all the cool sci-fi shit and atmosphere so you can play date sim in space and fix everyone's daddy issues.
 
Self-Ejected

CptMace

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,278
Location
Die große Nation
Play Mass Effect. Not quite an rpg, but the story was quite good. Learn that you can import save in Mass Effect 2. Get excited.
Realize the import doesn't matter. Siding with the alliance or the council at the end of 1 has no consequence. Story gets way worse. Give up definitely with da2.
Although my trust was already eroded by how DAO was nothing like BG yet was marketed as its successor.
 

Gimble

Educated
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Messages
106
If you are looking for a "bioware style" game, then try Shadowrun: Dragonfall. Frankly, it is better than any game created by Bioware, except perhaps BG/2 (only when modded with SCS though).
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You know how some people think "if you can't enjoy XYZ game then there's something wrong with your RPG credentials", normally, round here, that will be Fallout or PS:T or Gothic or whatever, well, one of mine is Hoards of the Underdark. I am honestly at a complete loss as to why someone who loves RPGs can't enjoy that game.
Because, prior to Bioware's RTwP antics, some people played good implementations of AD&D mechanics in the form of Goldbox, Darksun and ToEE. It's difficult to enjoy mutton when you've just eaten steak. Hoards of the Underdark has it's virtues, but it's a poor implementation of the AD&D systems.
That is because it isn't AD&D. HotU is DnD 3.5, which is a completely different beast to AD&D, especially when compared to the Goldbox games, which were really AD&D (i.e., what is now known as 1st Ed). BG was 2nd Ed, I believe, with BG2 adding in the optional kits system of 2nd.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
HotU starts off a little rough and uneven in terms of quality, so it doesn't surprise me when people don't give HotU a fair shake (especially if one wants to actually get through Undrentide - I couldn't, I skipped straight to HotU after losing interest with it), but as you said it is very close to top of the RPG pile.
The OC for me was pretty magical, being one of the first major D&D games playable in co-op and although I petered out on the campaign itself, I consider NWN a great RPG (even just the OC), thanks to the moddability and community content. It's sad we don't really have a replacement for this game yet - even NWN2 failed to replace it, although it has its own merits.
Undrentide is basically a series of vignettes only vaguely held together by the overarching quest. In many ways, it was like the OC, albeit with better controls and the developers are finally showing a better mastery of their own engine.

HotU really takes off when you get beamed down to the drow level. Undermountain was pretty much complete meh and the whole idea of something, especially drow, coming up through Undermountain was a stupid idea in the first place. Yeah, go take on a 500 year old psycho archmage on the level of Elminster (but who never bedded Mystra, so it was all him), who hates drow guts, in the seat of his power, and in a maze that he built using nothing but magic.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
You know how some people think "if you can't enjoy XYZ game then there's something wrong with your RPG credentials", normally, round here, that will be Fallout or PS:T or Gothic or whatever, well, one of mine is Hoards of the Underdark. I am honestly at a complete loss as to why someone who loves RPGs can't enjoy that game.
Because, prior to Bioware's RTwP antics, some people played good implementations of AD&D mechanics in the form of Goldbox, Darksun and ToEE. It's difficult to enjoy mutton when you've just eaten steak. Hoards of the Underdark has it's virtues, but it's a poor implementation of the AD&D systems.
That is because it isn't AD&D. HotU is DnD 3.5, which is a completely different beast to AD&D, especially when compared to the Goldbox games, which were really AD&D (i.e., what is now known as 1st Ed). BG was 2nd Ed, I believe, with BG2 adding in the optional kits system of 2nd.

To my knowledge HotU was a bastardized 3.0 pretty much just like SoU and OC and you only could get 3.5-ish with a hakpak.
HotU (and SoU, somewhat) were fun but suffered largely from the same damn shit most 3.x D&D suffers from (casters reign supreme, fighters get nothing but DevCrit to look forward to). I mean, if you really just want to break NWN and make it cry in the corner play a DC caster or Cleric/Fighter mix that spams shit like Harm with the boost to BAB making your touch attacks connect every fucking time.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You know how some people think "if you can't enjoy XYZ game then there's something wrong with your RPG credentials", normally, round here, that will be Fallout or PS:T or Gothic or whatever, well, one of mine is Hoards of the Underdark. I am honestly at a complete loss as to why someone who loves RPGs can't enjoy that game.
Because, prior to Bioware's RTwP antics, some people played good implementations of AD&D mechanics in the form of Goldbox, Darksun and ToEE. It's difficult to enjoy mutton when you've just eaten steak. Hoards of the Underdark has it's virtues, but it's a poor implementation of the AD&D systems.
That is because it isn't AD&D. HotU is DnD 3.5, which is a completely different beast to AD&D, especially when compared to the Goldbox games, which were really AD&D (i.e., what is now known as 1st Ed). BG was 2nd Ed, I believe, with BG2 adding in the optional kits system of 2nd.

To my knowledge HotU was a bastardized 3.0 pretty much just like SoU and OC and you only could get 3.5-ish with a hakpak.
HotU (and SoU, somewhat) were fun but suffered largely from the same damn shit most 3.x D&D suffers from (casters reign supreme, fighters get nothing but DevCrit to look forward to). I mean, if you really just want to break NWN and make it cry in the corner play a DC caster or Cleric/Fighter mix that spams shit like Harm with the boost to BAB making your touch attacks connect every fucking time.
Sorry. It was 3.0. You are correct. My bad. I was thinking of NWN2.

Actually, my first playthrough was a Human Fighter 17/Bard 1/RDD 10. I find casters to be tedious and not worth the time in NWN in general. It is far too easy to just rush the enemy and beat them to death. My second was a pure druid who went around with a dagger/scimitar and shield and beat everything to death. Doubly hilarious when I Wildshaped into a Fire Elemental and beat everything to death. Yeah, I don't do casters much in NWN games...

As a contrast, in tabletop 3.x, I play casters almost exclusively, mages in particular.

Oh, and my first NWN2 OC playthrough was a Fighter/Bard/RDD wielding first one, then dual Greatswords. Had a lovely moment when the sword stalker gith yelled "For Zeearie!" and then got his torso caved in the first half-second of the fight. Critical hit with a greatsword wielded two-handed by a Strength focused RDD. That was for Amie... bitch!
 
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PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
Sorry. It was 3.0. You are correct. My bad. I was thinking of NWN2.

Actually, my first playthrough was a Human Fighter 17/Bard 1/RDD 10. I find casters to be tedious and not worth the time in NWN in general. It is far too easy to just rush the enemy and beat them to death.

As a contrast, in tabletop 3.x, I play casters almost exclusively, mages in particular.

Oh man. In HotU a Cleric/Fighter multiclass with high Str will absolutely clean house. DC caster Gnome Wizard centered around Phantasmal Killer and Weird is absolutely broken in spots, nothing has a prayer of making their saves most of the time and drop fucking dead. First character I took through was a Fighter/Rogue multiclass that I wanted to go into Weapon Master with. Got to the golem island and said "fuck this", rerolled as a Tempuran cleric (War and Strength domains since NWN1 doesn't have a proper Battleguard kit or anything) and wrecked faces.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
Oh man. In HotU a Cleric/Fighter multiclass with high Str will absolutely clean house. DC caster Gnome Wizard centered around Phantasmal Killer and Weird is absolutely broken in spots, nothing has a prayer of making their saves most of the time and drop fucking dead. First character I took through was a Fighter/Rogue multiclass that I wanted to go into Weapon Master with. Got to the golem island and said "fuck this", rerolled as a Tempuran cleric and wrecked faces.
Your problem was Rogue, which I presume that you were going the weapon finesse route. Big rookie mistake :D

Even in tabletop, weapon finesse is generally a bad idea. Monks, especially, fall into that trap, thinking that they need to maximise Dex and Wis in order to be useful. Nope! Str or bust. You don't have strength, you aren't doing damage. If you aren't doing damage, the rest of your party is going to have to carry you. It is even worse with Rogues as they are the single worst class to play in what amounts to a solo hack and slash campaign. Even their sneak attack doesn't work without someone helping you flank.

The problem isn't Fighter. The problem is Rogue :D
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
Oh man. In HotU a Cleric/Fighter multiclass with high Str will absolutely clean house. DC caster Gnome Wizard centered around Phantasmal Killer and Weird is absolutely broken in spots, nothing has a prayer of making their saves most of the time and drop fucking dead. First character I took through was a Fighter/Rogue multiclass that I wanted to go into Weapon Master with. Got to the golem island and said "fuck this", rerolled as a Tempuran cleric and wrecked faces.
Your problem was Rogue, which I presume that you were going the weapon finesse route. Big rookie mistake :D

Even in tabletop, weapon finesse is generally a bad idea. Monks, especially, fall into that trap, thinking that they need to maximise Dex and Wis in order to be useful. Nope! Str or bust. You don't have strength, you aren't doing damage. If you aren't doing damage, the rest of your party is going to have to carry you. It is even worse with Rogues as they are the single worst class to play in what amounts to a solo hack and slash campaign. Even their sneak attack doesn't work without someone helping you flank.

The problem isn't Fighter. The problem is Rogue :D

Pretty much, thought I was going to be a clever dexer with shortswords and repeatedly ran into brick fucking walls, particularly against anything sneak-attack immune. 13 str meant I wasn't COMPLETELY hosed at first but as it dragged on and I hit that island with the golems it just became downright unfun. Valen and Deekin were carrying my ass and that just isn't right.

Oh, and I basically NEVER made a will save.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
Pretty much, thought I was going to be a clever dexer with shortswords and repeatedly ran into brick fucking walls, particularly against anything sneak-attack immune. 13 str meant I wasn't COMPLETELY hosed at first but as it dragged on and I hit that island with the golems it just became downright unfun. Valen and Deekin were carrying my ass and that just isn't right.
You know who else is immune to sneak attacks? Big M himself :D :D :D

I need a rolling on the floor laughing smilie :D

Try RDD with dual longswords. You will never look back. He was smashing the Valsharess so hard that she only had time to repeatedly cast Heal on herself to prevent death and had no time to do anything else. It was hilarious. And then she ran out of spells :D
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
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inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
You know, I was expecting to view the poll results and see like 1000 votes for NWN and posts like "LUL BIOWHORE SUCK ALWAYS JAJAJA XAXAXA xD" but you guys proved me wrong :)

DA2 is, indeed, the correct answer. I remember being so hyped for that game I pre-ordered it.. Only to install, play for literally 20 minutes then uninstall forever. Never touched a bioware game since :/
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
You know who else is immune to sneak attacks? Big M himself :D :D :D

Outsiders aren't even supposed to be sneak-attack immune by default (except Rakshasa I think?) so that's a huge asspull on Bioware's behalf (though with the way the Meph fight went on my other characters, having Valen/Aribeth and Deekin engage him in a standing battle so someone else can flank is definitely not ideal anyway)
 

Correct_Carlo

Arcane
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
8,468
Location
Pronouns: He/Him/His
Dragon Age 2 was and still is the worst game that Bioware ever released. It was also a turning point for the studio, in that it was the first game that they developed fully after they were acquired by EA. It had all the hallmarks of a rushed cash in.

That said, I loved Mass Effects 1-3, so I didn't stop buying Bioware games after DA 2. I just started waiting until they were 10 dollars to play them.

I thought DA:I was a massive improvement over DA2 and is underrated on the Codex. If some obscure Polish studio developed it, I think it would have a cult following here. The problem with Codex and Bioware is that the codex will never be able to view their games objectively. People here want to hate their games and that hatred is ingrained in the culture here. So whether that hatred is warranted or not, people here will find reasons to hate every new game that they release.

Mass Effect Andromeda was just kind of dull, though. I couldn't get into it. There was lots of stuff to do, but no reason to care, so I never finished it (despite playing through the original Mass Effect series 3 times).
 
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Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Oh man. In HotU a Cleric/Fighter multiclass with high Str will absolutely clean house. DC caster Gnome Wizard centered around Phantasmal Killer and Weird is absolutely broken in spots, nothing has a prayer of making their saves most of the time and drop fucking dead. First character I took through was a Fighter/Rogue multiclass that I wanted to go into Weapon Master with. Got to the golem island and said "fuck this", rerolled as a Tempuran cleric and wrecked faces.
Your problem was Rogue, which I presume that you were going the weapon finesse route. Big rookie mistake :D

Even in tabletop, weapon finesse is generally a bad idea. Monks, especially, fall into that trap, thinking that they need to maximise Dex and Wis in order to be useful. Nope! Str or bust. You don't have strength, you aren't doing damage. If you aren't doing damage, the rest of your party is going to have to carry you. It is even worse with Rogues as they are the single worst class to play in what amounts to a solo hack and slash campaign. Even their sneak attack doesn't work without someone helping you flank.

The problem isn't Fighter. The problem is Rogue :D

Weapon Finesse is fine. High Dex for armor class and +hit ensures that you get your sneak attacks in and if it is too dangerous for melee you are still an reasonably effective ranged fighter. A paltry +1 or +2 damage won't be much of an issue in the face of north of 10d6 sneak attack damage.

Also having high dex and wis is fine if you want to make the monk tanky/evasive. You still get plenty of damage through the unarmed attacks upgrades, quivering palm, etc.
 

PrettyDeadman

Guest
Baldur's Gate 1-2, but then they reignited my interest with Dragon's Age series (especially 2 with its original formula and 3 with its vissceral action combat system).
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,294
You know who else is immune to sneak attacks? Big M himself :D :D :D

Outsiders aren't even supposed to be sneak-attack immune by default (except Rakshasa I think?) so that's a huge asspull on Bioware's behalf (though with the way the Meph fight went on my other characters, having Valen/Aribeth and Deekin engage him in a standing battle so someone else can flank is definitely not ideal anyway)
Depends on the outsider. Big M is basically a demi-god, who can grant spells to his clerics, so he will have a lot of basic immunities.

Raks are not immune to sneak attack. They are basically DR 15 to everything except magical piercing weapons in 3.5. I can't remember what their DR was in 3.0.
 

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