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ToEE with Temple+ Discussion

Cael

Arcane
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Nov 1, 2017
Messages
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Well I am fine with level 10 for the original content anyway since it is balanced for that. I would like to try out and see how the implementations of level 6-9 look like though. It will be fun to try out the PrC's too.
I might just go with a 8 man party that should keep experience low per character as well hopefully.
Those spells that already exist in-game were what was added to the spell level 6-9 lists. So if you have a scroll of Heal in the game, you can cast Heal as a L6 Cleric spell (L7 for Druids, IIRC). If there is no scroll or wand or some mob/NPC with the ability to cast a particular spell, it won't be in the game.

I definitely recall Chain Lightning and Heal are definitely in the game. You get a wand of the former and potions and scrolls of the latter. I am not sure of anything else, although I have this niggling memory of Destruction being in the game somewhere.
 

Sykar

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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Well I am fine with level 10 for the original content anyway since it is balanced for that. I would like to try out and see how the implementations of level 6-9 look like though. It will be fun to try out the PrC's too.
I might just go with a 8 man party that should keep experience low per character as well hopefully.
Those spells that already exist in-game were what was added to the spell level 6-9 lists. So if you have a scroll of Heal in the game, you can cast Heal as a L6 Cleric spell (L7 for Druids, IIRC). If there is no scroll or wand or some mob/NPC with the ability to cast a particular spell, it won't be in the game.

I definitely recall Chain Lightning and Heal are definitely in the game. You get a wand of the former and potions and scrolls of the latter. I am not sure of anything else, although I have this niggling memory of Destruction being in the game somewhere.

If my wizard goes up to level 13, or my Sorcerer to level 14, should he not get to choose two spells or one spell respectively from the level 7 spell list?
 

Cael

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If my wizard goes up to level 13, or my Sorcerer to level 14, should he not get to choose two spells or one spell respectively from the level 7 spell list?
Yes. But your choices is likely to be limited to maybe 4 spells. There is a list in the Co8 site/documentation, I think. I remember seeing it.
 

Sykar

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If my wizard goes up to level 13, or my Sorcerer to level 14, should he not get to choose two spells or one spell respectively from the level 7 spell list?
Yes. But your choices is likely to be limited to maybe 4 spells. There is a list in the Co8 site/documentation, I think. I remember seeing it.

Sure but that is fine anyway imho. I mean it is not like the original game was overflowing with scrolls, something I actually appreciate because finding a scroll is something notable, unlike in for example the BG series where most of the lower level spells are easily purchasable or can be found rather easily and in high numbers so they are nothing special and even among the higher level spells you would find a few with exceptions.
 

gunman

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Developer
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Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,050
One of the most annoying things in this game especially in ironman mode was how difficult was to select a move destination in a crowd of enemies. When you finally thought you have found a safe route by pixel hunting, when you click if you move the mouse by just 1 pixel makes you go straight through the middle of enemies triggering all AOO. I hoped Temple+ could find a solution to this, a confirmation for movement or something.
 

Sitra Achara

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Re. high level Spells
There should be more in Co8, like Polar Ray, Delayed Blast Fireball, Power Word X, Summon/Nature's ally etc. Not the full repertoire but certainly more than just the vanilla spells.

One of the most annoying things in this game especially in ironman mode was how difficult was to select a move destination in a crowd of enemies. When you finally thought you have found a safe route by pixel hunting, when you click if you move the mouse by just 1 pixel makes you go straight through the middle of enemies triggering all AOO. I hoped Temple+ could find a solution to this, a confirmation for movement or something.
Are you aware of alt click?
 

Sykar

Arcane
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Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Re. high level Spells
There should be more in Co8, like Polar Ray, Delayed Blast Fireball, Power Word X, Summon/Nature's ally etc. Not the full repertoire but certainly more than just the vanilla spells.

One of the most annoying things in this game especially in ironman mode was how difficult was to select a move destination in a crowd of enemies. When you finally thought you have found a safe route by pixel hunting, when you click if you move the mouse by just 1 pixel makes you go straight through the middle of enemies triggering all AOO. I hoped Temple+ could find a solution to this, a confirmation for movement or something.
Are you aware of alt click?

By the way a personal thanks on my part for your great mod.
 

gunman

Arcane
Developer
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Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,050
I don't have the game installed but I'll try when I'll install. But I remember something like this, and only preview doesn't help if when you click to execute the movement the path is changed if you moved the mouse by only one pixel. However, after if you set up the path you can confirm without having to click in the same point you want to move, then this is what I want.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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However, after if you set up the path you can confirm without having to click in the same point you want to move, then this is what I want.
Unfortunately it is not like this, you have to click on the same point again to validate the move, but it still helps a lot though. There are still too many occurrences of move "mistakes" for my liking too, like when some bugbear breathes and the extra-pixels it suddenly takes fuck-up you path, but AFAIK pixel hunting and screams of anger come with the territory when a game has many units in a limited space. It's frustrating as hell, but it doesn't happen too often in ToEE and the game is worth it.
 

Cael

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Nov 1, 2017
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20,287
However, after if you set up the path you can confirm without having to click in the same point you want to move, then this is what I want.
Unfortunately it is like this, but it still helps a lot though. There are still too many occurences of move "mistakes" for my liking, like when some bugbear breathes and the extra-pixels it takes fuck-up you path, but AFAIK pixel hunting and screams of anger come with the territory when a game has many units in a limited space. It's frustrating as hell, but it doesn't happen too often in ToEE and the game is worth it.
You know, it may actually be a step in the right direction to have a hex or square based grid a la Fallout for DnD style games instead of the push towards more NWN/BG style of play. That was what the system was built on. It would solve a lot of problems, both movement based and accidental friendly fire...
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Agreed, that's one of the reasons why I was really looking forward to "Chaos chronicles". Alas... :cry:
 

Cael

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ToEE is an underrated gem ignored in favor of its siblings NVN and Baldur's Gate.
ToEE was a way better RPG than NVN and BG IMO.
The problem was the bugs. ToEE as released was an unplayable mess because of the bugs. In terms of the combat UI and indicators, it was definitely far better than NWN. It's biggest problem was actually the 5-foot step being buried in the radial menu 3 layers deep. It seemed that the UI creators had no idea how 3.5 gameplay worked and the importance of the 5-foot step in that system.

As for being a better RPG, it is based on one of THE original DnD modules (together with that other gem, Tomb of Horrors).
 

Sykar

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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
ToEE is an underrated gem ignored in favor of its siblings NVN and Baldur's Gate.
ToEE was a way better RPG than NVN and BG IMO.
The problem was the bugs. ToEE as released was an unplayable mess because of the bugs. In terms of the combat UI and indicators, it was definitely far better than NWN. It's biggest problem was actually the 5-foot step being buried in the radial menu 3 layers deep. It seemed that the UI creators had no idea how 3.5 gameplay worked and the importance of the 5-foot step in that system.

As for being a better RPG, it is based on one of THE original DnD modules (together with that other gem, Tomb of Horrors).

I loved the game until my saves got corrupted. It has great atmosphere, it is reasonably close to the P&P version especially with point buy, or if you can limit yourself to roll only once though most cannot, and the diplomacy skills are used quite a bit unlike in most D&D games.
There was also little to no hand holding and you have to find out stuff on your own. Modern games gravitate more and more towards making it almost impossible to fail for you sadly. On and loads of followers to recruit though some are a little too greedy for my taste.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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the 5-foot step being buried in the radial menu 3 layers deep. It seemed that the UI creators had no idea how 3.5 gameplay worked and the importance of the 5-foot step in that system.

I never thought of that, but it's very true.
 

Cael

Arcane
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Nov 1, 2017
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I loved the game until my saves got corrupted. It has great atmosphere, it is reasonably close to the P&P version especially with point buy, or if you can limit yourself to roll only once though most cannot, and the diplomacy skills are used quite a bit unlike in most D&D games.
There was also little to no hand holding and you have to find out stuff on your own. Modern games gravitate more and more towards making it almost impossible to fail for you sadly. On and loads of followers to recruit though some are a little too greedy for my taste.
In 3.5, it is difficult to roll once and be done with it. The whole system, unfortunately, doesn't encourage it.

In ADnD, stats didn't mean too much. You practically needed 16+ to have an effect in most cases. So most people ended up with +0 in most things from stats.

In 3.5, every 2 points above 10 counts, and a lot of the early game is all about stats. If you didn't have a decent bonus in Strength, for example, you are really out of luck trying to hit anyone with a 14 Dex, scale armour and a heavy shield (AC 18, so 17+ to hit for a Str 10 L1 Fighter). The same guy in ADnD would have a Thac0 of 19, but the opponent would only have an AC of 5, so he would be hitting 14+. That is a huge difference.

To further illustrate the point: A fully tricked out Warforged Fighter in 3.5 can have an AC of 22 from level 1 (Adamantine Body (+8) feat plus Extreme Shield feat (replacing Tower Shield feat; +3) plus Dex of 12) with no penalties to his fighting ability. There is no way a Fighter with a Strength less than 14 is going to hit him on anything other than a 20.

Tying spellcasting to a stat in 3.5 also made having a high stat mandatory. You can't cast spells if your casting stat is too low, something that ADnD didn't really have until much higher spell levels.

I tend to stay away from the followers except Meleny. I would only take 2 of them for their equipment (the femi-Nazi and the drunkard). The problem with the followers is that none of them are spellcasters other than Meleny, and all of my guys are always spellcasters except for the rogue (who is usually a Rogue 4/Fighter x). I find straight fighters to be too boring. Usual party is 2 clerics, sorcerer, wizard, rogue/fighter plus Meleny.
 
Last edited:

Sykar

Arcane
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Dec 2, 2014
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Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I am fine with the point-buy system and I am fairly sure that the game is beatable with it. It will just be harder. I never had Meleny before, will check her out maybe. My TN party so far is a bard who acts as face and caster with 16 charisma 14 int and 14 dex, wizard with 17 Int and 14 Con/Wis, a NE rogue who will be my assassin prc with 19 dex, 12 con and 14 int. I am still pondering over getting cleric, favored soul or druid and not sure what to take as fifth, was thinking barbarian or ranger, might also go with a second divine caster since I already have two arcane casters with bard and wiz.

I do not take followers just to get items. I am not playing this game for power gaming, I leave that to IWD 2 which why I also refuse now and back then to use anything but point buy. That does not mean though that I will do random nilly willy stupid shit but pumping your chars full of 16s and 18s is just boring cheese.

I am actually tempted to redo some of the pregenerated chars since despite the claim that they were made with point buy they have far too high stats, like they were created with 28+ points.
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
However, after if you set up the path you can confirm without having to click in the same point you want to move, then this is what I want.
Unfortunately it is not like this, you have to click on the same point again to validate the move, but it still helps a lot though. There are still too many occurrences of move "mistakes" for my liking too, like when some bugbear breathes and the extra-pixels it suddenly takes fuck-up you path, but AFAIK pixel hunting and screams of anger come with the territory when a game has many units in a limited space. It's frustrating as hell, but it doesn't happen too often in ToEE and the game is worth it.
I think the confirm click snaps to the last waypoint if you hover near it.
The difficult part IIRC is when navigating near corpses or dense crowds, they'll often "steal" your cursor's targeting location. I think I could add support for a modifier to ignore them when picking target location (e.g. shift click).
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
I am fine with the point-buy system and I am fairly sure that the game is beatable with it. It will just be harder. I never had Meleny before, will check her out maybe. My TN party so far is a bard who acts as face and caster with 16 charisma 14 int and 14 dex, wizard with 17 Int and 14 Con/Wis, a NE rogue who will be my assassin prc with 19 dex, 12 con and 14 int. I am still pondering over getting cleric, favored soul or druid and not sure what to take as fifth, was thinking barbarian or ranger, might also go with a second divine caster since I already have two arcane casters with bard and wiz.

I do not take followers just to get items. I am not playing this game for power gaming, I leave that to IWD 2 which why I also refuse now and back then to use anything but point buy. That does not mean though that I will do random nilly willy stupid shit but pumping your chars full of 16s and 18s is just boring cheese.

I am actually tempted to redo some of the pregenerated chars since despite the claim that they were made with point buy they have far too high stats, like they were created with 28+ points.
I played ToEE without PrCs. There was none to be had.

I don't take followers for real. I just consider recruiting the femi-Nazi and having her eaten by the mutant mosquitoes to be doing the world a favour. As for the drunkard, he's a spy anyway, so he can go get eaten by a crayfish.

IWD2 already had point buy. They just used a different PB system (77 total stats adjusted for your racial modifiers, IIRC)
 

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