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Which RPGs are the best for beginners?

Falksi

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Morrowind had you going around trying to figure out what is happening, whether a prophecy is really about you, convincing varying factions to aid/confirm you, finding out that you are the only one who can stop an awakening god that not even the 3 other living gods can stop and more.

Oblivion has you playing courier boy for a bunch of monks hiding in a fort.

Insert dragons instead of awakening god and you have Skyrim.

Look, I agree that Morrowind is better than Oblivion or Skyrim, but that’s not saying much and they’re still really similar. It’s like the same house with different wallpaper.

Several key things which makes Morrowind different:

1) Structure & predictablity - Skyrim & Oblivion have very much self-contained cut-paste dungeons. Skyrim's were all setup very similar, and you usually ended up back at the start; Obvlivion's all stuck out like a sore thumb as dungeons by the numbers. Morrowind's hand crafted approach on the other handmeant every dungeon you entered - even ones which were similar - felt different, because you just couldn't predict what was coming next.

2) Environments & Enemies - Skyrim & Oblivion again gave us very cookie cutter enemies & landscapes. Morrowind never, NEVER stopped amazing me. A building made from a crab shell, a village of giant mushrooms, just how deep does this Dwemner ruin go etc. Again, because it wasn't cookie cutter, you constantly had a sense of discovery and you never knew what environment or enemy you would encounter next (OK, so you did know about Cliff Racers, but those aside)

3) Quests - All the quests felt very natural & part of the world. In fact they didn't really feel like quests. Yes you went off to help the Blades, but finding your bozz as an old Skooma addict & deciding where to go from there really did make you feel as if you were just living your life in another world, not just running around collecting achievements & ticking off quests.

4) Magic - levitate, breathe under water, boots of blinding speed etc. Again it all felt organic, and very much part of the world. Skyrim & Oblivion reduced that to cliche gaming mechanics designed for console-tards
 

Cael

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Insert dragons instead of awakening god and you have Skyrim.

Look, I agree that Morrowind is better than Oblivion or Skyrim, but that’s not saying much and they’re still really similar. It’s like the same house with different wallpaper.
To be honest, I never played Skyrim (hence why I didn't mention it in my post). I took one look at Oblivion and walked away from the franchise.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Falksi:

I feel like we played two different games. I found the dungeons very repetitive and boring. Way too much of the game was a classic Bethesda walking simulator (in fact, Morrowind invented it). There were tons of fetch quests. NPCs, with a few exceptions, were soporific and had no character. Very few real role playing opportunities.

This guy did a really good comparison of Morrowind vs Gothic and I think he expresses things better than I do:

http://thenocturnalrambler.blogspot.com/2015/02/morrowind-sucks-aka-morrowind-is.html?m=1
 

fantadomat

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Falksi:

I feel like we played two different games. I found the dungeons very repetitive and boring. Way too much of the game was a classic Bethesda walking simulator (in fact, Morrowind invented it). There were tons of fetch quests. NPCs, with a few exceptions, were soporific and had no character. Very few real role playing opportunities.

This guy did a really good comparison of Morrowind vs Gothic and I think he expresses things better than I do:

http://thenocturnalrambler.blogspot.com/2015/02/morrowind-sucks-aka-morrowind-is.html?m=1
That is why you play thief/assassin. Elder Scroll game are really good at roleplaying as a thief. After all there is set amount of time you can replay the thief trilogy.
 

Cael

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That is why you play thief/assassin. Elder Scroll game are really good at roleplaying as a thief. After all there is set amount of time you can replay the thief trilogy.
Because of the way the game is structured, there is no reason not to play thief/mage. There isn't really anything else you can play unless you want to artificially gimp yourself.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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It’s like the same house with different wallpaper.

And without level-scaling, an intelligent compass and not set in bland english/norwegian countryside. Which in terms of house analogies, means the walls, plumbing and electricity are gone.
If Morrowind's a house, Oblivion is a shack and Skyrim's a bin.
And Daggerfall is a palace.
/thread
 

Kyl Von Kull

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It’s like the same house with different wallpaper.

And without level-scaling, an intelligent compass and not set in bland english/norwegian countryside. Which in terms of house analogies, means the walls, plumbing and electricity are gone.
If Morrowind's a house, Oblivion is a shack and Skyrim's a bin.
And Daggerfall is a palace.
/thread

The look of the setting is the wallpaper—that’s about as clear as a metaphor can be. Morrowind didn’t dumb down the UI for casuals, and sure quest GPS systems suck, but again we’re talking cosmetics (Oblivion and Skyrim would still suck if Bethesda had killed the compass and included more original looking environments). As for the lack of level scaling in Morrowind, that would move me more if the combat wasn’t so terrible (something that would be more forgivable if Gothic hadn’t gotten the ARPG formula right a year earlier).

Same house, different decorations.

I liked Daggerfall when it was new, but I wonder if my continued affection for it is the same kind of early adolescent nostalgia that has so many people calling a soulless snoozefest like Morrowind a work of genius.
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
For what it's worth, I disliked Morrowind as well as Oblivion and Skyrim.
Back when it came out I tried 2-3 times to get past the first village but I found the gameplay so bad what with the awkward FPS controls, combat and so on that I always quitted after a while.
I imagine the less handholding nature of it is what is praised in the codex
 

wyes gull

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The look of the setting is the wallpaper
I don't think Morrowind's setting can be so easily discounted. Comparing Oblivion or Skyrim to it isn't so much comparing apples to oranges, rather comparing apples to seafood- its setting and world design being so alien is integral to the game's success with so many people. Wallpaper (which is vaguely used where I'm from but anyway) being such a unimportant part of a house really diminishes what is -I would imagine- one of, if not the most important reason Morrowind still has fans.

Regardless, this isn't about the metaphor, it's about how tackling those 3 issues would go a long way to fixing both sequels. Would it be enough? Unlike you, I'd say it would be for them not to suck. They'd still be mediocre and there'd still be plenty broken in them, mind, but that would be enough to the sustain the illusion of the "Bethesda game world", which is what makes them "work". (And it's not like there isn't a legion of autistic modders at its beck and call to fix whatever issues remain.)

I liked Daggerfall when it was new, but I wonder if my continued affection for it is the same kind of early adolescent nostalgia that has so many people calling a soulless snoozefest like Morrowind a work of genius.
It's been my opinion for some time that Bethesda's been making the same game over and over and making more and more concessions each time. For money; for mainstream success; for time constraints; whatever the reason. In practical terms, what matters to you as a player is how well the illusion holds up. If it's your first Beth game, it's a time of wonder and wander. Wander "wherever you please"; wonder at the scope of such an undertaking, from the flora and fauna, to the number of npcs, of houses, of spells and magic disciplines, of items and weapons. This should last you your whole playthrough. Then you play the next game and you spend most of your time thinking "where has this gone?", "why was that changed for the worse?", "why is this so dull and repetitive?", substantially shortening your enjoyment and the length of time you're willing to dedicate to it. Essentially, you're finding out what all of the above tosh is in service to. And the answer is nothing. Then, god forbid, you play a 3rd game. Good luck making it past 2 hours. That was Skyrim for me. (TBF, my 3rd was Fallout 3 which lasted about 5 or 6 hours; it -was- Fallout, if in name only and I would be damned if I wouldn't play it enough to know how to properly shit on it). Diminishing returns, each and every time.

So does the entry point matter? Probably not. As you can probably figure out, whereas yours was DF, mine was MW. I'd still like to imagine somewhere down the line, when Bethesda's games have devolved into Visual Novels (that everyone still calls RPGs), there'll still be a 60 year old somewhere who still swears by MW's setting. But hey, I wouldn't recommend it as a beginner's RPG either.
 

Machocruz

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That is why you play thief/assassin. Elder Scroll game are really good at roleplaying as a thief. After all there is set amount of time you can replay the thief trilogy.
Because of the way the game is structured, there is no reason not to play thief/mage. There isn't really anything else you can play unless you want to artificially gimp yourself.
I found this only true of Morrowind, out of it, Oblivion, and Skyrim. And this is because of the way items were handled. In Morrowind, every item in a shop could be found somewhere on premises, so there was stuff worth stealing. In the other two it was just plain, low level trash that were physically in the shop, the good stuff only materialized when you paid for it. Then there was the situation with item scaling and uniques The lack of the former and greater prevalence of the latter in MW means you can find good stuff tucked away in buildings and out in the world somewhere through exploration, which is not so in the other two. This was all part of the magic of MW to me and part of the overarching reason it was the more interesting game: there was a much stronger sense of mystery and discovery since your first time playing you didn't know what you could find or run into in any part of the world, and there was a larger amount of stuff to find. You couldn't immediately see the margins of the experience like you could in the other two, which showed their entire hands after about 10 hours if not sooner and ran out of mysteries and discoveries. Going into a shop in MW was like being a (non poverty stricken) kid waking up on Christmas morning.The poor item game was the number 1 thing that made Oblivion just a massive decline. I mean imagine if not only it had that itemization, but add to that the NPC scheduling and better sneaking mechanics, it would have taken the series' rogue game to the next level. Of course there are other issues, like buildings no longer having second floor entrances, no more guards in stores, etc. but the itemization was the achilles heel. No plotting to raid Vivec vaults, no risk/reward going into a dungeon with higher level enemies and using your wits to find a way to the loot.

Also the poorer spell game also accompanies this lack of rogueish fun compared to MW. No more stealing or killing out in the open and teleporting away while the whole place tries to kill you - or conversely failing your cast and having that high level mage in the mob fuck you up. No more making a cheap ring of levitate to fly above the heads of higher level enemies to get that good magic weapon at the end of the dungeon. All lost, like spears in rain.
 

wyes gull

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Hell, I'd recommend Morrowind only in case of "Have you ever played a Bethesda game? No? Play Morrowind. It's the only one that lets you simulate a walk you can't simulate IRL.".
 

Falksi

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Falksi:

I feel like we played two different games. I found the dungeons very repetitive and boring. Way too much of the game was a classic Bethesda walking simulator (in fact, Morrowind invented it). There were tons of fetch quests. NPCs, with a few exceptions, were soporific and had no character. Very few real role playing opportunities.

This guy did a really good comparison of Morrowind vs Gothic and I think he expresses things better than I do:

http://thenocturnalrambler.blogspot.com/2015/02/morrowind-sucks-aka-morrowind-is.html?m=1

There were tons of fetch quets, but you usually knew they were gonna be that - e.g. "go get me X herbs". What there also is though is loads of mint quests which are not only fun in their own way, but more importantly which serve as bait to lead you on your own adventure. There's none of this "get quest, go place, loot, fast travel back, repeat". It's more a case of "head towards Balmora for the Blades quest, ooh I've stumbled across a dumgeon, let's have a look. Ah a note which tells me about X, maybe I'll head there. Holy shit I'm now under the sewers at Vivec and have discoverd a hidden shrine etc. " It's organic, it's natural & mysterious.

And along the way you're experiementing with spells, seeing animals & buildings you've never seen in any game before, discovering more about yourself and the Neverine etc. Again, it's about mystery & discovery.

I mean let's talk Fast Travel. Modern Devs are retarded cunts. Why? Because they are clueless as to why Fast Travel even exists. Fast Travel should NEVER even appear until the gamer has a sense of familiarity with his initial set of surroundings. The whole reason it was created was to allow the gamer to skip sections which they had seen before, and avoid repetition. But by including it from the off the fucktards which do that kill any chance the gamer has to build a slight rapport with his initial settings. Morrowinds Mark, Recall & Siltstriders did that perfectly and you actually felt as if you were travelling around a world. Oblivion & Skyrim however just make you feel as if you're bouncing round a cut-paste spreadsheet.

Morrowind is absolutely FAR better adventuring all round IMO. The "None Generic NPCs" mod makes a difference, but granted the NPCs do lack somewhat......for a 2017 game. But not for a 2002 game they don't.

If Bethesda have any sense, TES 6 will be set somewhere like Argonia, be far more alien & unpredictable than it's recent games, have much more flexible & craftable magic, only have fast travel as a "valued" mechanic, and be structured far more like Morrowind too.

Essentially take Morrowind's basics & ideals, freshen it up with new enemies & environments, add mordern combat & C&C dialogue, and away you go.

No, I'm under no illusions that we'll get that, and I know we'll likely get Skyrim Creed: The Mild Hunt Effect
 

Bruma Hobo

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I already played Baldur's Gate, IWD and PS:T.

So, which games a begginer in the genre should play now? Fallout, Deus EX, Arcanum, Age of Decadence, Morrowind...?

Tks in advance for the eventual tips.

Get the Master System version of Ultima IV, which is the game that hooked me into this genre (before that I was only familiar with Diablo, MMOs and some JRPGs, and I didn't like them). Combat is extremely easy (and boring), it's mostly an excellent explorationfag game with creative non-combat mechanics and a great plot.

I consider Expeditions: Conquistador an excellent modern introductory RPG, especially for those who are repelled by generic fantasy tropes. I have yet to play Expeditions: Viking since it doesn't look nearly as good.

Wizardry 8 started my lust for blobbers, and Knights of the Chalice did the same for tacticool combatfag games. There certainly are easier games out there but they're usually not as engaging, Lands of Lore for example can be too simplistic for its own good.

And of course there is the original Fallout, perhaps the best late 90s RPG.
 

Atlet

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Ok, I guess the natural choice should be the fallout games (1+2).

Should I play Fallout Tactics and NV?

Edit: I was considering playing morrowind, ultima VII and Divine Divinity. I will play them later.
 

Abh

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Actually do play Divine Divinity soon. It's an easy place to start and a very good game. I'd recommend you find a spoiler free guide(not walkthrough) that tells you how to avoid breaking quests though.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

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Ok, I guess the natural choice should be the fallout games (1+2).

Should I play Fallout Tactics and NV?

I wouldn't bother. Jagged Alliance 2 shits on Tactics and New Vegas is tainted by the Bethesda engine.

Fallout, Fallout 2 and Arcanum are the best pure RPGs and Jagged Alliance 2 is the best tactical game. You can safely write off those who disagree, as scrubs.
 

Darkzone

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Ok, I guess the natural choice should be the fallout games (1+2).
Should I play Fallout Tactics and NV?
Edit: I was considering playing morrowind, ultima VII and Divine Divinity. I will play them later.
Yes the next cRPG should be in this order: Fallout 1 and 2, then i recommend to you a different perspective RPG like that of Wasteland 1 and Dragon Wars. From this you can go either to Ultima 7 or the First Person Road of Ultima Underworld. I also would say play later Divine Divinity and Divinity Original Sin. This would make a good foundation for each RPG genre, before you try out classics like Dungon Master, the Bard's Tale series or Betrayal of Krondor or Ultima 4 - 6 or etc. After playing this games you have definity some insight into this topic.
And only after this all you could try NV, but i do not recommend Fallout Tactics at this stage despite that it is not a bad game (not a classical RPG) and you should definitly try it later.
 
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Morrowind had you going around trying to figure out what is happening, whether a prophecy is really about you, convincing varying factions to aid/confirm you, finding out that you are the only one who can stop an awakening god that not even the 3 other living gods can stop and more.

Oblivion has you playing courier boy for a bunch of monks hiding in a fort.

Insert dragons instead of awakening god and you have Skyrim.

Look, I agree that Morrowind is better than Oblivion or Skyrim, but that’s not saying much and they’re still really similar. It’s like the same house with different wallpaper.

They are similar to the extent that Bioshock is like System Shock 2.

One game goes to extra effort to add systems and content that make you feel like you are in a fantasy world and have to make choices from that perspective and the other two streamline a bunch of features to make the game more accessible.

The atmosphere is still good in Oblivion and Skyrim (though significantly worse in Oblivion and noticeably worse in Skyrim).
 
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Lilura

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Divinity Original Sin.

Avoid this over-hyped current gen garbage like the plague. If you want to play turn-based tactical, go Temple of Elemental Evil (Co8 Lite & Temple+) and Jagged Alliance 2 (1.12 before 1.13).
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ok, I guess the natural choice should be the fallout games (1+2).

Should I play Fallout Tactics and NV?

Edit: I was considering playing morrowind, ultima VII and Divine Divinity. I will play them later.

Don’t try to plan anything past Fallout 2 right now. By the time you finish the originals you’ll have a better idea of what you like and dislike.

Postscript: mea maxima culpa! I feel responsible for unleashing all these paeans to TES 3 from hiking simulator enthusiasts. I want to keep arguing, but I’ll find a more appropriate thread.
 

Cael

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I found this only true of Morrowind, out of it, Oblivion, and Skyrim. And this is because of the way items were handled. In Morrowind, every item in a shop could be found somewhere on premises, so there was stuff worth stealing. In the other two it was just plain, low level trash that were physically in the shop, the good stuff only materialized when you paid for it. Then there was the situation with item scaling and uniques The lack of the former and greater prevalence of the latter in MW means you can find good stuff tucked away in buildings and out in the world somewhere through exploration, which is not so in the other two. This was all part of the magic of MW to me and part of the overarching reason it was the more interesting game: there was a much stronger sense of mystery and discovery since your first time playing you didn't know what you could find or run into in any part of the world, and there was a larger amount of stuff to find. You couldn't immediately see the margins of the experience like you could in the other two, which showed their entire hands after about 10 hours if not sooner and ran out of mysteries and discoveries. Going into a shop in MW was like being a (non poverty stricken) kid waking up on Christmas morning.The poor item game was the number 1 thing that made Oblivion just a massive decline. I mean imagine if not only it had that itemization, but add to that the NPC scheduling and better sneaking mechanics, it would have taken the series' rogue game to the next level. Of course there are other issues, like buildings no longer having second floor entrances, no more guards in stores, etc. but the itemization was the achilles heel. No plotting to raid Vivec vaults, no risk/reward going into a dungeon with higher level enemies and using your wits to find a way to the loot.

Also the poorer spell game also accompanies this lack of rogueish fun compared to MW. No more stealing or killing out in the open and teleporting away while the whole place tries to kill you - or conversely failing your cast and having that high level mage in the mob fuck you up. No more making a cheap ring of levitate to fly above the heads of higher level enemies to get that good magic weapon at the end of the dungeon. All lost, like spears in rain.
Not only stores. There are quite a few pieces of high end armour and weapons lying around the place that you can steal like in the Dren Plantation.

But it is not about stealing. It is about the fact that you have all skills open to you, and there is no restrictions on the weapons or armour you can use. Therefore, there is no reason why you cannot get thief and magic skills and wield the best heavy armour and weapons. To ignore one aspect of it would be an artificial shackle, not a gameplay one. That is why everyone tends to end up being thief/mages.
 

Iznaliu

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I find it pretty interesting how nobody in this thread is actually explaining or justifying their recommendations, but instead they choose to shout over each other and argue about which games are better (which doesn't equal which games are suitable for an RPG newcomer).
 

Cael

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I find it pretty interesting how nobody in this thread is actually explaining or justifying their recommendations, but instead they choose to shout over each other and argue about which games are better (which doesn't equal which games are suitable for an RPG newcomer).
I already played Baldur's Gate, IWD and PS:T.

So, which games a begginer in the genre should play now? Fallout, Deus EX, Arcanum, Age of Decadence, Morrowind...?

Tks in advance for the eventual tips.

Ultima 7 (The Black Gate) and 7:2 (Serpent Isle). You can find a Let's Play of both (and Ultimas 4-6) here so that you can get a taste of what it is like. Just... don't do half the stuff he does. It is aimed at veterans of the series who can see where he has gone straight off the rails and is digging his way to China.

Fallout and Fallout 2 are easy to get into and understand. 3 onwards is a complete shift in gaming philosophy, becoming more like The Elder Scrolls than Fallout, so it depends on what you like.

Do NOT try Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines as a beginner due to a hell of a lot of technical issues. The game was badly bugged and the combat all over the place. You will need a mod or an unofficial patch to fix things. The mod is full of fixes for what the author INTERPRETE as bugs, and the patch is a pain to install. Save yourself the trouble. A pity, because the setting is really good and if you have a good group, the tabletop game is lots of fun.

Morrowind can be overwhelming for a beginner. It is large, it is open, and you are given few pointers as to what to do other than go to X, and talk to Y. Following nothing but the few pointers you have would not give you the full experience of the game, and may (I am not sure because I always go off the beaten track) end up pitting you against things you are ill-equipped to handle.

Temple of Elemental Evil is basically 3.5 tabletop rules in a CPRG. It is clunky and as mentioned, you WILL need to patch it and install mods. It is a mess otherwise. The main thing is that the Co8 mod/patch is easy to install and fixes everything, and any extras are clearly marked and are not part of the original storyline (i.e., they all happen after the main game).

Icewind Dale 2 isn't that hard, but it is completely different from IWD in terms of rule set. It is pseudo 3rd Edition, whereas BG and IWD was 2nd Ed. You may like it or you may not. The storyline is not too bad, but has a bunch of plot holes crashing through it.

Bolded for your convenience.
 

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