Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

As for Durance, the problem was never the amount of words, but that the vast majority of those words were nothing but exposition. No matter whether Darth Roxor is right in his criticism of Durance or not, we agree on this principle. I'm not sure how you can defend so much exposition, Infinitron, as just a problem of pacing. That's essentially what lore dumps are: exposition.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Ok you fuckers I’m going to install this now, 10 FPS be damned.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's hard to shill if you aren't shilling, so no surprise there. The game, if not the industry, needs better writers. It's obvious the ones at Obs aren't learning animals.

 

[Infinitron]

As for Durance, the problem was never the amount of words, but that the vast majority of those words were nothing but exposition. No matter whether Darth Roxor is right in his criticism of Durance or not, we agree on this principle. I'm not sure how you can defend so much exposition, Infinitron, as just a problem of pacing. That's essentially what lore dumps are: exposition.

I'm not defending it per se. I mean I guess it could have been executed better, but it just doesn't seem unusual to me compared to writing in other RPGs. Like, I wouldn't have noticed that minor soldier NPCs in Crucible Keep speak in an "expository" way if people on this forum weren't so bothered by it. OMG THIS SOLDIER SAYS HE'S A SOLDIER AND HE REPORTS TO COMMANDER CLYVER. Okay bro, move on. It's not a lot to read.

I feel like when discussing PoE's writing, there are a bunch of factors that people are conflating without really noticing. For most people, is it really "exposition" that's bothering them, or is it the combination of exposition, stupid backer NPC stories, unnecessary descriptive prose, Durance & Grieving Mother text-walls, etc, that makes it seem so bad? Would they notice the exposition if all those other things weren't there too? I think that "lore dump" is a fun-sounding term that has caught on to describe PoE's writing issues that doesn't really accurately pinpoint the problems that most people have with it.

 

[Lacrymas]

The problems in P1's writing have been excessively analysed and detailed. If the only thing you managed to pick up from that discussion is "lore dumps lol" then that speaks more about you than about the discussion.

 

[FreeKaner]

Please stop using "show, don't tell", it doesn't mean what you think it means. A long descriptive text isn't necessarily not "show", a short witty one-liner isn't necessarily not "tell".

Show, don't tell refers to actually creating context for characters to express their personality through incidents, descriptions and circumstance. As opposed to "tell" which is when a writer might say something like "he was a well respected man but with a lot of rivals and enemies". So "show" in the case of a video game would be more text and lore-dump than "tell". In fact what people often want is less show more tell and more direct dialogue.

It's a narrative writing wisdom, it always refers to writing.

 

[Infinitron]

The problems in P1's writing have been excessively analysed and detailed. If the only thing you managed to pick up from that discussion is "lore dumps lol" then that speaks more about you than about the discussion.

This is my appraisal of Pillars of Eternity's writing:

Does Pillars of Eternity have an excess of text that bogs down the player's experience? Yes.

Is that excess of text comprised mainly of a radically large amount of lore and exposition? In my opinion, no. That's just not the experience I had. It probably had more lore than the Infinity Engine games, but not radically so. It was within the norms of the RPG genre.

 

[Grunker]

As for Durance, the problem was never the amount of words, but that the vast majority of those words were nothing but exposition. No matter whether Darth Roxor is right in his criticism of Durance or not, we agree on this principle. I'm not sure how you can defend so much exposition, Infinitron, as just a problem of pacing. That's essentially what lore dumps are: exposition.

I'm not defending it per se. I mean I guess it could have been executed better, but it just doesn't seem unusual to me compared to writing in other RPGs. Like, I wouldn't have noticed that minor soldier NPCs in Crucible Keep speak in an "expository" way if people on this forum weren't so bothered by it. OMG THIS SOLDIER SAYS HE'S A SOLDIER AND HE REPORTS TO COMMANDER CLYVER. Okay bro, move on. It's not a lot to read.

I feel like when discussing PoE's writing, there a bunch of factors that people are conflating without really noticing. For most people, is it really "exposition" that's bothering them, or is it the combination of exposition, stupid backer NPC stories, unnecessary descriptive prose, Durance & Grieving Mother text-walls, etc, that makes it seem so bad? Would they notice the exposition if all those other things weren't there too? I think that "lore dump" is a fun-sounding term that has caught on to describe all of this that doesn't really accurately pinpoint the problems that most people have.

I've noticed on Steam you don't tend to play a lot of games very much. I'll urge you to go back and play the BGs. They're simple games, but try to notice when those "basic NPCs" with dialogue triggers address you and tell you about their uncle or whatever. Those commoners that talk to you when you enter a bar or a certain area. They have the typical RPG problem of NPCs telling you their life story at the tip of hat, but they also fit in a lot of exposition in a very natural way by having people tell us stories, relay current activities or tell us about their predicaments, and in doing that sticks bits of expositon in through the edges. The NPC'll have a funny accent or a be very upset or show this or that emotion. It's very simple, it's very banal, but at least it's there. Also those dialogue segments last maybe 2 or 3 clicks as opposed to Pillars' streams and streams and streams of text simultaneously trying to dump lore and burying us in extraneous, descriptive text about how this random commoner is chewing on a straw or whatever.

I'm not using BG as an example of fantastic writing here, I'm just saying that it gets away with a lot of exposition just by putting it into some archetypical dudes with their own quirks, stories to tell and ways of talking. As opposed to everyone ranting of facts about the world they inhabit.

Pillars of Eternity's writing is plain bloated. That's a fact.

 

[Infinitron]

As for Durance, the problem was never the amount of words, but that the vast majority of those words were nothing but exposition. No matter whether Darth Roxor is right in his criticism of Durance or not, we agree on this principle. I'm not sure how you can defend so much exposition, Infinitron, as just a problem of pacing. That's essentially what lore dumps are: exposition.

I'm not defending it per se. I mean I guess it could have been executed better, but it just doesn't seem unusual to me compared to writing in other RPGs. Like, I wouldn't have noticed that minor soldier NPCs in Crucible Keep speak in an "expository" way if people on this forum weren't so bothered by it. OMG THIS SOLDIER SAYS HE'S A SOLDIER AND HE REPORTS TO COMMANDER CLYVER. Okay bro, move on. It's not a lot to read.

I feel like when discussing PoE's writing, there a bunch of factors that people are conflating without really noticing. For most people, is it really "exposition" that's bothering them, or is it the combination of exposition, stupid backer NPC stories, unnecessary descriptive prose, Durance & Grieving Mother text-walls, etc, that makes it seem so bad? Would they notice the exposition if all those other things weren't there too? I think that "lore dump" is a fun-sounding term that has caught on to describe all of this that doesn't really accurately pinpoint the problems that most people have.

I've noticed on Steam you don't tend to play a lot of games very much. I'll urge you to go back and play the BGs. They're simple games, but try to notice when those "basic NPCs" with dialogue triggers address you and tell you about their uncle or whatever. Those commoners that talk to you when you enter a bar or a certain area. They have the typical RPG problem of NPCs telling you their life story at the tip of hat, but they also fit in a lot of exposition in a very natural way by having people tell us stories, relay current activities or tell us about their predicaments, and in doing that sticks bits of expositon in through the edges. Also those dialogue segments last maybe 2 or 3 clicks as opposed to Pillars' streams and streams and streams of text simultaneously trying to dump lore and burying us in extraneous, descriptive text about how this random commoner is chewing on a straw or whatever.

I'm not using BG as an example of fantastic writing here, I'm just saying that it gets away with a lot of exposition just by putting into archetypical dudes with their own quirks and ways of talking.

Pillars of Eternity's writing is plain bloated. That's a fact.

That may be so, but Baldur's Gate isn't my only point of reference for determining what the "RPG genre norm" is. I guess it's a fair argument that it should be the main point of reference. But again I'm not saying that Pillars of Eternity's writing is "good". I'm just saying its amount of exposition didn't seem unusual or particularly exasperating to me. I'm willing to accept the charge that I've become accustomed to lower standards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Mazisky]

So, how is the npc reaction to the enviroment, weather and night-day cicles?

I watched a video with some rain, but people just continued to talk, as if there were no changes at all.

There is some. I'm playing right now:

in the village for example there are less people at night, most of the people you see walking around at daytime are kinda relaxing in the beach at night, empty campfires at day become lit and with people at night, etc.

 

[CptMace]

That may be so, but Baldur's Gate isn't my only point of reference for determing what the "RPG norm" is. I guess it's a fair argument that it should be the main point of reference. But again I'm not saying that Pillars of Eternity's writing is "good". I'm just saying its amount of exposition didn't seem unusual or particularly exasperating to me. I'm willing to accept the charge that I've become accustomed to lower standards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Frankly this aspect was the one that got stuck in my head after the first playthrough. The comparison with BG was and still is almost natural because of how the game was pitched and how the project was born.
Now I think you're not very honest with yourself Infinitron when you say it's among the average rpgs in terms of exposition. Pillars' npcs are all the way down there with bethesda's when it comes to one-function-robots-pretending-to-be-real-persons. Bethesda kind of has an excuse - since they decided it was cool to have a fully voiced game. They can't really avoid giving the same lines to all npcs, resulting in this weird freak show in game.
In the case of Pillars - and that's why I brought that up back then - it really struck me. Did they really not want to give all these characters a semblance of characterization ?
Now, to the light of how development went, and how designers and artists alike were under pressure, I can understand their priority was elsewhere.
But still, it's pretty unusual for the genre.

 

[Grunker]

As for Durance, the problem was never the amount of words, but that the vast majority of those words were nothing but exposition. No matter whether Darth Roxor is right in his criticism of Durance or not, we agree on this principle. I'm not sure how you can defend so much exposition, Infinitron, as just a problem of pacing. That's essentially what lore dumps are: exposition.

I'm not defending it per se. I mean I guess it could have been executed better, but it just doesn't seem unusual to me compared to writing in other RPGs. Like, I wouldn't have noticed that minor soldier NPCs in Crucible Keep speak in an "expository" way if people on this forum weren't so bothered by it. OMG THIS SOLDIER SAYS HE'S A SOLDIER AND HE REPORTS TO COMMANDER CLYVER. Okay bro, move on. It's not a lot to read.

I feel like when discussing PoE's writing, there a bunch of factors that people are conflating without really noticing. For most people, is it really "exposition" that's bothering them, or is it the combination of exposition, stupid backer NPC stories, unnecessary descriptive prose, Durance & Grieving Mother text-walls, etc, that makes it seem so bad? Would they notice the exposition if all those other things weren't there too? I think that "lore dump" is a fun-sounding term that has caught on to describe all of this that doesn't really accurately pinpoint the problems that most people have.

I've noticed on Steam you don't tend to play a lot of games very much. I'll urge you to go back and play the BGs. They're simple games, but try to notice when those "basic NPCs" with dialogue triggers address you and tell you about their uncle or whatever. Those commoners that talk to you when you enter a bar or a certain area. They have the typical RPG problem of NPCs telling you their life story at the tip of hat, but they also fit in a lot of exposition in a very natural way by having people tell us stories, relay current activities or tell us about their predicaments, and in doing that sticks bits of expositon in through the edges. Also those dialogue segments last maybe 2 or 3 clicks as opposed to Pillars' streams and streams and streams of text simultaneously trying to dump lore and burying us in extraneous, descriptive text about how this random commoner is chewing on a straw or whatever.

I'm not using BG as an example of fantastic writing here, I'm just saying that it gets away with a lot of exposition just by putting into archetypical dudes with their own quirks and ways of talking.

Pillars of Eternity's writing is plain bloated. That's a fact.

That may be so, but Baldur's Gate isn't my only point of reference for determing what the "RPG norm" is. I guess it's a fair argument that it should be the main point of reference. But again I'm not saying that Pillars of Eternity's writing is "good". I'm just saying its amount of exposition didn't seem unusual or particularly exasperating to me. I'm willing to accept the charge that I've become accustomed to lower standards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I didn't mean for it to be the only point of reference. That's why I wrote:

I'm not using BG as an example of fantastic writing here

But I guess I could have been more clear. I meant it as an example of how even something as basic as the first Baldur's Gate had better implementation of exposition.

(Part of the reason is its simplicity and I also admit this in my review, but the fact that Pillars is more ambitious does not excuse its flaws - it simply explains them.)

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Does anyone see any potential in this game to convince someone who thought first PoE was utter garbage?

 

[Sentinel]

Depends. Why did you think it was steamy hot poo?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I'm afraid the list would be too long so let's just say I completely agree with most common criticisms of it. The only thing that gives me a shade of hope is the precedence: I think BG1 is bad to average while BG 2 good to great in most aspects.

And what the hell is it with the edgy ratings, you guys lost too much hair recently or sth else making you touchy?

 

[Sentinel]

I'm afraid the list would be too long so let's just say I completely agree with most common criticisms of it. The only thing that gives me a shad of hope is the precedence: I think BG1 is bad to average while BG 2 good to great in most aspects.

And what the hell is it with the edgy ratings, you guys lost too much hair recently or sth else making you touchy?

You shouldn't be surprised that PoE threads are full of rabid fanboys.
The only thing that seems to have been improved is the amount of text everytime you talk to an NPC, which is now much less. But it's too early to tell. PoE1 beta saw entire systems removed/reworked so we'll see how this progresses.

 

[Prime Junta]

This place gets a bit overexcited at times.

Any criticism ------> it's shit, irredeemable, unplayable, complete disaster, etc. etc.
Any praise ------> shill, fanboy, etc. etc.

That said, after playing a bit further (and rolling up a new character)... this is Pillars, syllable soup, loredumps and all. It ain't Planescape: Torment, but it's a sight more colourful and interesting than, to pick an example at random, Dragon Age: Origins. The environments are much nicer than in P1, and have lots of cool stuff in them. I especially like the changes to traps. Encounters make more use of the environment and are overall richer. And at least as tuned right now, it's a notch harder than P1, although it's possible I'm under-geared for this, and the provided mercenary companions kinda suck in all kinds of ways. But those guys punch hard and take work to take down.

And I still think the mechanical changes are almost all and I wish they'd roll them back.

 

[Mazisky]

Oh, that is pretty nice.

During night time most of the village workers go down there for a bit of relax, and the guy you see walking with the torch is actually going to lit all village lamps!
(i followed him, after lighting like 20+ torches around the village he sit back with the others)

 

[Grunker]

And I still think the mechanical changes are almost all and I wish they'd roll them back.

This is pretty big tbh :/

 

[FreeKaner]

I don't think health/injurity instead of health/endurance or all per encounter is bad on their own, but they are different. IF that difference is not accounted for and addressed correctly it will end up p. bad but it has potential to be good if there is much less spells per encounter and getting knocked out is much more easier for example, or if the difference between good food and random food is substantial to give some strategic depth.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Game has some nice art so at least it'll be a major hit here.

 

[CptMace]

During night time most of the village workers go down there for a bit of relax, and the guy you see walking with the torch is actually going to lit all village lamps!
(i followed him, after lighting like 20+ torches around the village he sit back with the others)

Well I didn't realize my comparison with Bethesda would be so on point
More seriously, that's pretty cool.

 

[Ulfhednar]

This place gets a bit overexcited at times.

Any criticism ------> it's shit, irredeemable, unplayable, complete disaster, etc. etc.
Any praise ------> shill, fanboy, etc. etc.

That said, after playing a bit further (and rolling up a new character)... this is Pillars, syllable soup, loredumps and all. It ain't Planescape: Torment, but it's a sight more colourful and interesting than, to pick an example at random, Dragon Age: Origins. The environments are much nicer than in P1, and have lots of cool stuff in them. I especially like the changes to traps. Encounters make more use of the environment and are overall richer. And at least as tuned right now, it's a notch harder than P1, although it's possible I'm under-geared for this, and the provided mercenary companions kinda suck in all kinds of ways. But those guys punch hard and take work to take down.

And I still think the mechanical changes are almost all and I wish they'd roll them back.

The BB npcs are all single class. What do you like about the traps? I'm not a fan of them dropping injuries on my characters but it's not clear what other meaningful consequence they could have. They blend into the background well.

 

[Grunker]

Causing injuries sounds like a good change. Normally you can just soak up the damage and not care.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Well, they're essentially upset that the character building mechanics are more like the original AD&D Infinity Engine games.

Damn straight. Character building in P1 was a huuuuge improvement over any version of D&D, this is several steps back.

The biggest improvement, among others of course, is the reorganization of base stats and the "no dump stats" rule.

My opinion is that most of the common talents from PoE were pretty forgettable (specialization bonuses to Acc, defenses bonuses, unlock a quick slot (of all things)). If whatever from that list fits some character class, then let it be exclusive to that class.

This actually adds to class diversity, not take away from it. It's hilarious that people would be complaining about character classes feeling less unique after the removal of talents, in a game that gives them 55 combinations for multiclassing. Such is the quality of feedback you can expect to get from a den of fanboys I suppose. I mean the Obsidian forum.

The whole hyperlink thing tells me they didn't listen to a word of the criticism leveled against the last game's writing. The problem wasn't incomprehensibility - it was lore dumping and unnatural characters. That problem is made severely worse with the new system and focus on even more made up language, not better.

I did say we shouldn't expect more than serviceable writing from a videogame. At least I can't get unpleasantly surprised by bad writing in games.

Regarding your discussion with Infinitron about PoE's writing, I'm surprised why you both omit the established (from an interview with the lead writer no less) fact that PoE's writing was all draft, without editor passes.

Given that however, they are out of excuses for me if the writing in Deadfire feels as much "draft-quality" as PoE's did. I doubt it is that bad, but still, I'm not expecting more than average.

This place gets a bit overexcited at times.

Any criticism ------> it's shit, irredeemable, unplayable, complete disaster, etc. etc.
Any praise ------> shill, fanboy, etc. etc.

That said, after playing a bit further (and rolling up a new character)... this is Pillars, syllable soup, loredumps and all. It ain't Planescape: Torment, but it's a sight more colourful and interesting than, to pick an example at random, Dragon Age: Origins. The environments are much nicer than in P1, and have lots of cool stuff in them. I especially like the changes to traps. Encounters make more use of the environment and are overall richer. And at least as tuned right now, it's a notch harder than P1, although it's possible I'm under-geared for this, and the provided mercenary companions kinda suck in all kinds of ways. But those guys punch hard and take work to take down.

And I still think the mechanical changes are almost all and I wish they'd roll them back.

Good to hear my prediction is correct and the encounters are overall better quality.

Causing injuries sounds like a good change. Normally you can just soak up the damage and not care.

I want to reiterate that the injury costing you 25% of your health cap is miles better than having to watch when green color turns to yellow color and then click the rest button to make it green again.

Not to mention the genious idea that if I start combat with less points Health than I have Endurance, I can be permakilled by accident before my immediate short-term health has ran out, because my "long-term" health has been depleted before my "short-term" health. Moronic to the bone.

So the new system is no doubt better. Now if there could only be some sort of cost to resting...