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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Iznaliu

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Doubt that numenera will be a success in a decade,let alone a rpg classic. Torment does have a magical writing that will respected and loved at least a few more decades.

Due to the way RPGs are created, nobody is going to care that Torment will be remembered for decades to come when they need the influx of cash now. Long-lasting fame did nothing for Black Isle or Troika, and will do nothing for countless more RPG developers.
 

Fairfax

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I don't feel like digging through NMA's archives ever since they messed up the site, but Desslock once posted NPD figures, which measures North American retail sales, back in May 2000. Torment had 73,000. Doubling the figure more or less gives you the international total in most cases.
His own article said he was informed that some of PC Data's figures were off by 50%. :roll:
 

fantadomat

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Doubt that numenera will be a success in a decade,let alone a rpg classic. Torment does have a magical writing that will respected and loved at least a few more decades.

Due to the way RPGs are created, nobody is going to care that Torment will be remembered for decades to come when they need the influx of cash now. Long-lasting fame did nothing for Black Isle or Troika, and will do nothing for countless more RPG developers.
I disagree with you mate. Money is not the only thing in the world. There is something in looking back and seeing your accomplishment still standing while your body is crumbling.
 

ga♥

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I don't feel like digging through NMA's archives ever since they messed up the site, but Desslock once posted NPD figures, which measures North American retail sales, back in May 2000. Torment had 73,000. Doubling the figure more or less gives you the international total in most cases.

And I don't feel to start it again... it has already been discussed, that data is innacurate at best.
 

Roguey

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Freaking Fargo says

It was over several years and probably included some sales. That’s one of the mistakes a lot of websites make, I don’t mean the Codex, they’ll sometimes run the numbers and they’ll assume full price, and go “gee look at all the money they made” but they don’t know that it could’ve been half of them were for $10.

but some delusional people still insist that no, Torment had to sell more than those numbers, way more..!
 

ga♥

Arcane
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How well did Planescape: Torment sell? The Codex believes it sold in the area of 400,000 copies.

Brian: 400,000 sounds about right. [...] Now I couldn’t tell you at what price those copies sold at, and I couldn’t tell you how many it’s sold since then.

Totaly delusional.

Not like claiming WoTC hates Colin McComb right? That wasn't totaly pulled out of your ass.
 

ga♥

Arcane
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And beside that, that sentence by Fargo doesn't even say anything about how well it went. Everyone knows it sold less than BG, this doesn't mean it was the same situation as Numenera.
 

Roguey

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Totaly delusional.

So you really believe it sold 300,000+ copies in its first few months and almost nothing in the following years despite this being completely at odds with how typical RPGs sold at the time (steady long tails, any given RPG would occupy shelf space for years, as opposed to games from other genres that typically disappear not too long after the first because the demand is no longer there).

Not like claiming WoTC hates Colin McComb right? That wasn't totaly pulled out of your ass.

Obtaining the Planescape license was impossible at the time?

Brian: Not possible. I tried.

Colin: I would also add that I tried as well. Back in February in 2012, Avellone, Dengler, and I had talked about trying to get the Planescape license and that didn’t go anywhere.
 

ga♥

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You jump to... heavy conclusions based on nothing, like when you were writing that Colin was fired for the Numenera fiasco... :roll:

[...]
As an example, I told one of teams in late 1996 that it would be a good idea for us to make a game using Bioware's Infinity Engine, the Planescape license, to have the game based in Sigil (an area in the Planescape world) and to have the player go to at least two other "dimensions". The product that came out of that was Torment. Torment was totally different than the game that I expected, but it fulfilled what I had suggested to them and it was commercially successful.

This is Feargus. In 2001.

You can't compare Numenera to PS:T (sales, revenue...). Period.
 

Fairfax

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You jump to... hard conclusions based on nothing, like when you were writing that Colin was fired for the Numenera fiasco... :roll:

[...]
As an example, I told one of teams in late 1996 that it would be a good idea for us to make a game using Bioware's Infinity Engine, the Planescape license, to have the game based in Sigil (an area in the Planescape world) and to have the player go to at least two other "dimensions". The product that came out of that was Torment. Torment was totally different than the game that I expected, but it fulfilled what I had suggested to them and it was commercially successful.

This is Feargus. In 2001.

You can't compare Numenera to PS:T (sales, revenue...). Period.
MCA also said it was commercially successful, but Roguey has this narrative that PS:T bombed and any game that tries to be like PS:T is doomed to fail as well.

I do believe there's a limited audience for such a game, and a Beamdog Torment would probably fail like TTON, but not for the same reasons he does. Also, the problem with such a claim is that what defines a "PST-like game" is up for debate, and whether or not a game actually replicates that experience is even more subjective. It's like saying PoE didn't sell as much as BG2 because that kind of game can't sell millions anymore. You'd have people arguing that PoE is much worse, it's not similar to BG and so on.
 

Roguey

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This is Feargus. In 2001.

Planescape Torment's budget was a fraction of ToN's, of course it was successful. They had a Guido Henkel to lay down the law. If Fargo had Henkel or someone like him filling the same role to keep ToN under budget, it would have also been commercially successful.
 

Fairfax

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This is Feargus. In 2001.

Planescape Torment's budget was a fraction of ToN's, of course it was successful. They had a Guido Henkel to lay down the law. If Fargo had Henkel or someone like him filling the same role to keep ToN under budget, it would have also been commercially successful.
What? :lol:

Guido Henkel didn't lay down the law nor did he save the project as you suggest. He was actually very hands-off and didn't do much, it's probably why the game was as good as it was. He only tried to "lay down the law" when Interplay's management started to put pressure on him, but it didn't work well. He got frustrated with management and the team itself, and then left Interplay as soon as PS:T reached Beta. It was definitely for the best, as one of the things he wanted to do was cut the companions entirely. He did so little that the team demoted him to "Producer" in the game's credits.

Oh, and years after release, he said in an interview that MCA, the man who designed and wrote most of the game, was lazy and incompetent, which shows how much he knew about the project he was supposed to direct.
 

fantadomat

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This is Feargus. In 2001.

Planescape Torment's budget was a fraction of ToN's, of course it was successful. They had a Guido Henkel to lay down the law. If Fargo had Henkel or someone like him filling the same role to keep ToN under budget, it would have also been commercially successful.
Yet it was far greater game than ToN. It seems money and complacency = shit game.
 

Roguey

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Guido Henkel didn't lay down the law nor did he save the project as you suggest. He was actually very hands-off and didn't do much, it's probably why the game was as good as it was. He only tried to "lay down the law" when Interplay's management started to put pressure on him, but it didn't work well. He got frustrated with management and the team itself, and then left Interplay as soon as PS:T reached Beta. It was definitely for the best, as one of the things he wanted to do was cut the companions entirely. He did so little that the team demoted him to "Producer" in the game's credits.

Interplay/Black Isle didn't have a "project director" classification so I don't see how producer can be a demotion (unless it's from "senior producer").

Oh, and years after release, he said in an interview that MCA, the man who designed and wrote most of the game, was lazy and incompetent, which shows how much he knew about the project he was supposed to direct.

Well, by standards of German efficiency...
 

Fairfax

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Interplay/Black Isle didn't have a "project director" classification so I don't see how producer can be a demotion (unless it's from "senior producer").
PS:T did. Here's what he posted on the official website about his departure:

8/27/99

Without much ado, a parting note from Guido Henkel, who has stepped down as Project Director on Planescape: Torment. I'll return next week with more insanely interesting marketing info.

Greg (Big Tuna) Peterson

As most of you have certainly heard by now, I have left Interplay as of this week in order to pursue other opportunities and most importantly to have more time to spend with my family.

The game is well under way and I can't wait to play the final product. There are some incredibly talented people working on this game and I can assure you all that the game is not in jeopardy with me leaving. Believe me, I would have never left Interplay if I had had the feeling "Torment" would break with my absence.

So, with all that I want to wish you all well, and most importantly thank you all for the support you have given me and the rest of the team over the past two years. "Torment" would not be what it is without you, and many of the features we put in the game were a direct result of your comments. I have always enjoyed talking to you, writing my updates, chatting with you and answer questions directly by email, although my time did not allow me to be as 'present' as I had wished to.

I am sure we will meet again...
Guido Henkel
You can also see his previous posts as Project Director in that archived website.

Guido was replaced by Ken Lee, but he wasn't credited as Project Director either. I assume the team agreed neither of them deserved that credit (especially the guy who abandoned the project), so both were listed as producers:

m9ipe2z.jpg
(It's worth mentioning that Ken Lee was a Line Producer from the start, so it's only Guido who was effectively demoted)

Even Ferret Baudoin, who did worse than Guido, was still credited as one of the Design Leads in NWN2. :lol:


Small correction: Guido called MCA (and Colin) "extremely disorganized and slow" in the interview, although I believe he called the team incompetent in another one. Here's the original interview (in German), and the full quotes (google translated):

DSA Game: Torment is often associated with the person Chris Avellone (Lead Designer). Names such as Collin McComb, Eric Campanella or Dave Maldonaldo are heard more often, while the name Guido Henkel in connection with Planescape is mainly known to German local patriots. What exactly were your tasks in the development process? Were you more focused on production and management, or did you directly participate in the design?

GH: The reason for that is mainly because I was really "only" producer at the title. Although I contributed a lot to the technical design because the team members had absolutely no experience in the field, in terms of content that was mostly Chris' and Colin's baby. Of course everything had to be approved by me and I also gave direction here and there in terms of content and storyline.

Another reason is that you are not popular as a producer. Ultimately, this is the job of doing nothing all day but looking over the team's shoulder, making sure they work diligently, keeping the schedule, that there are no feature creeps, that the budget is not overdrawn and immediately. Also, I was in the position of the one who had to fire teammembers if they did not "work", who had to tell the boys that they would not get a raise, and so on. Producer is a dirty job and after "Planescape" I swore I would never do that again, but that's the reason why I'm often hushed up by the team, because as a producer I've never been recognized as a creative member Game code from me, ideas I contributed, parts of my design and so on. I can live without problems, especially as I know that my influence was much more far-reaching than that of Chris Avellone, Eric Campanella or Dave Maldonaldo. :) [:lol::lol::lol:]

DSA Game: Planescape is still praised by some players and critics even today, although the commercial success was unfortunately never sufficient for a sequel or at least a similar game. However, it was noticeable from the half of the game that it became very linear. There are some gaps and inconsistencies in the story. For example, the improperly completed romance with the thieving Tienah Annah. Or the diary of Succubus Grace, which you can always carry with you but never read. Also, the superfluous ini entry CD5 = "" puzzled (Planescape came on first release on 4 CDs). There was a lot more planned, right?

GH: Chris and Colin, as good as they were as designers, had some extreme weaknesses. Unfortunately they were extremely disorganized and slow. The result was that more content was planned than it finally made it into the game. At some point, I had to set the thumbscrews and make it clear that the game had to be done on a specific date, even if that meant that several changes had to be made, such as the deletion of various subplots, and so forth. Of course, I did not like that, but I just got a lot of pressure from interplay management back then, which ultimately led to my departure. My goal was to make sure that the game was not staged senselessly and crippled just because Interplay wanted to meet a delivery date and billing quarter. Therefore, I fought it through to the beta phase and then submitted my notice.

Despite having an axe to grind, not even Guido himself disputes his demotion. It's also funny that he takes so much credit and criticizes the team, but admits he couldn't handle the job and omits the fact he quit while the game was still in beta.

Oh, and I asked MCA a while ago if he thought he was the de facto Project Lead on the game, and he said yes. :mca:
 

Hobo Elf

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I think it should be pretty obvious by now that Guido is a loon. Deathfire should've been the most damning evidence of this. Then Obsidian announced the subtitle of PoE2.
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
Torment writers' GDC 2017 panel is now on Youtube:



In this 2017 GDC session, game writers George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Chris Avellone, Colin McComb, and Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.
 

Lahey

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
This one could make for a good drinking game. Take a swig everytime:
  • Leanne expects MCA to take the lead after posing a question
  • MCA contradicts Colin
  • Gavin curses
  • Colin makes a dumb joke
  • Anyone contradicts their finished product
Also that title :lol:
 

Roguey

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Despite having an axe to grind, not even Guido himself disputes his demotion. It's also funny that he takes so much credit and criticizes the team, but admits he couldn't handle the job and omits the fact he quit while the game was still in beta.

There was an error in communication.

Guido said:
Titles used to have very little meaning when I first began. They were often simply a moniker to show who was involved in a project and in roughly what capacity that person’s focus was. I think in the “Realms of Arkania” games I’m credited as the producer as well, while in fact, I programmed, designed, created art, did the music and a million other things. It would have appeared as excessively self-serving to add my name to each category, so we decided early on not to do that and instead pick one and leave it at that.

When I signed on with Interplay to produce Planescape I was imagining to see the same kind of work environment, in which everyone is helping everyone to the best of their abilities, in order to build the products. I found very quickly, however, that there was a much stronger separation than I had anticipated.

As a result my primary responsibilities on that project were primarily administrative in nature. While I did some work on some of the technical design aspects of the game, I was mostly the guy who was crunching the numbers and maintained the project plans to make sure everyone knew what they were supposed to do, and got it done in time. It was also my job to shield the team from the many corporate issues that surround a project, that may simply be distracting the team from the creative aspects. It is neither a fun, nor a glorious job.

Oh, and I asked MCA a while ago if he thought he was the de facto Project Lead on the game, and he said yes.

MCA worked himself to near-death by his own account, so he wasn't a particularly good one. Cut-heavy Henkel was just trying to keep him alive; a dead worker is no good to him.
 

fantadomat

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Torment writers' GDC 2017 panel is now on Youtube:



In this 2017 GDC session, game writers George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Chris Avellone, Colin McComb, and Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

Where is Rothfuss :) ?
 

biggestboss

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So is this game good yet, or even worth playing? Or is it still juggling 20 numanuma's in your inventory and deciding which ones to use in the 5 combats in the entire game
 

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