Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[newtmonkey]

This is all 100% off topic

I have played EO series, and while I love the map drawing mechanic, I simply cannot get into (first) the artwork and (second) the class system. For a guy who only knows D&D from back when he was a kid, I have no idea what classes to pick, etc. I had a similar problem Operation Abyss, where the classes were like AMATERASU and other stuff that made no sense to me. Actually EO was a lot better cuz at least they were using names of classes that games have been using for 30 years.

I have really been enjoying Elminage Original on my 3DS, which has a 100% automap. It works for this cuz 1) it's a portable system, I am not gonna break out the graph paper in bed whilst exploring dungeons at night and 2) the later dungeons can get so big that I would need to use multiple sheets of paper and 3) the save system is kind enough that if you majorly screw up, you just reset the game and start safe from town. You still get some hairy situations with teleporters and the like, so I think it is fine

[EDIT] I gotta get Gaiden 6 sometime haha

 

[aweigh]

yeah the length of modern japanese Wiz-clones is the main reason why one begins to see the sense in automapping. honestly, as long as the dungeon itself is well designed the enjoyment of the experience should remain undiluted, as after all: mapping by hand is complimentary to the crawling experience, but it is not the experience itself.

problem with EO series, much more than the art, are the simplified systems and middling level of depth. to the games credit some of the later dungeons, especially in title 3 of the series (which is regarded by everyone as the best one) feature very, very good dungeon design; but that is curtailed by the games simply being... too fucking simple to make the Wiz-grind enjoyable.

as for Experience Inc's Generation XTH series... sigh, what can I say? Instead of going over again all of their failings, which are made even more stinging due to the fact that Exp Inc crawlers outsell Starfish's Elminage games by like 3:1, I'll simply say:

Stranger of Sword City is their only worthwhile legit Wiz-clone. Map-design wise it is nothing compared to any real Wiz scenario, but their unique approach to character perma-death, the great itemization and going back to traditional Wiz classes and races (instead of the AMATERETSU and DESUDESU classes of Gen XTH) make for their best Wiz-clone and by far their best dungeon crawler.

I would recommend just playing SoSC (which I thoroughly enjoyed, but not enough for a 2nd playthrough as the dungeon design is weak) and hopefully Exp Inc leans from their success with SoSC and their future DRPGs are done in that mold, instead of the Gen XTH mold.

They really managed to implement legitimately new approaches to Wiz-mechanics, with wholly fresh takes on Wiz-style multiclassing and Wiz-style permadeath and making these things their own. Like I said, SoSC is their only good game. (!!!).

but I feel it appropriate to point something out here, quoting myself here from a PM I just received:

yeah but it is a sad truth: most people do not want ot play Wizardry-inspired titles and if you ever subject yourself to the pain of reading the GRPG wizardry thread you'll realize 90% of codexers think they're not worth playing except for the bad entries in the series, i.e. the later ones that abandon everything Wizardry stood for.

there is in fact even a smaller faction that goes even further and believes dungeon crawlers in general are not RPGs. it is an uphill battle for the sub-genre and the only ally we have are the japs.

that is why I say it pains me terribly that even with our only allies, the Japs, even they prefer dumbed down stuff like EO and SoSC (exp inc's games) over stuff like Elminage (which is made by ex Wiz devs and is the true continuation of the Wizardry series).

well, don't really have anything to say about this because i'll basically just devolve this post to calling people dumb which benefits no one.

 

[newtmonkey]

Very thorough post on this topic. I think I agree 100%, though I have a very soft spot for DW Bradley and what he did to Wizardry (though I admit that he did basically transform Wizardry into something completely unidentifiable compared to 1-5... on the other hand, it had to be done... look at all the people even on this rpg-loving site that refuse to even attempt to play wiz 1-5). I personally like what he did with the Wiz series, but I also view Wiz 1-5, 6-7, and 8 as almost 3 different series, and appreciate all of them. I mean, is there any other classic RPG series that is so consistently good??? M&M was GREAT until 6, good even for 7 and 8, but ended on a down note with 9. Utilma? Oh god. Quest for Glory? 5 is not bad, but is a far cry from 1, 2, and 4. Gold Box I guess is pretty much good from start to finish...

 

[aweigh]

i don't think it had to be done though i agree with most of your post. Why do I disagree with "it had to be done"? because the japanese rejected his changes and continue to churn out games in the style of wiz 1-5, while cherry-picking the good things he did add in 6.

...and these games have sold more and inspired more merchendizing than any western wizardry scenario ever did, including the Bradley ones.

there are fucking mangas and animes about Wizardry for fuck's sake! (btw, the Wizardry anime series is a must fucking watch, as anime-Werdna is fucking hilarious!)

the only thing he introduced with scenario 6 and onwards that "had to be done" were... graphics and sound. That is literally it. As the japanese have proved if you take true Wiz blueprint (scenarios 1-5) and inject them with modern stuff like:"

- weapon enchanting
- auto mappinp of some sort
- more races, more items, more spells, different approaches to multi-classing
- keep the vancian spell casting
- no lock-picking minigames (like Bradley did)

then people will buy them and love them to death. the only reason Bradley is credited with "saving Wizardry" (though in reality he killed it, as evidenced by them not asking him back for Wiz 8) is simply because his entrance to the series coincided with the addition of mouse-support, graphics and sound.

...thus wiz 6 was the first wizardry (or 7) for a lot of the posters here and they are pre-programmed now to think his changes were all good, when in fact they were all dumbing down the system mechanics. The graphics and sound blinded them to this and when they looked back and saw the wire-frame graphics of scenarios 1-5 they thought:

"oh, that is so primitive! how can it possibly actually be better than wiz 6/7!"

it is why I continually point out that the remakes are the best way to experience Wizardry 1-5, as they eliminate the barrier of entry of wireframe graphics and provide all of the Wizardry mechanics that allow the genius design of pre-Bradley scenarios to shine.

...or alternatively that is also why I continually keep fighting for people to recognize and play the japanese Wizardry scenarios, as they (also) feature graphics and sound and most of them cherry-pick all of the good things Bradley introduced in 6 while keeping the systems true to real Wizardry.

it is why I keep becoming depressed at how resistant the posters here to:

- play something japanese
- play something they've heard/read is "primitive"

in both circumstances the hypothetical poster in question is being extremely ignorant.

EDIT: and, btw, I actually LIKE Wiz 6. I wish Bradley had kept doing entries like Wiz 6, as it was an acceptable compromise between old and new. I consider western Wizardry to end with entry 6, not 5.

I also love Wiz 8 and in fact Wiz 8 was my first Wizardry. When I played Wiz 8 I didn't even know wtf Wizardry was only that it was a new RPG and I wanted to play it, i did not go into it with any expectations whatsoever.

Wiz 8 was my first Wizardry and I love it, although (obviously) I now prefer the earlier scenarios / japanese scenarios after having discovered the genius of true Wizardry.

 

[newtmonkey]

I understand what you are saying 100%, but also, there is a difference between the Japan and US audience IMO. When I say he did "what had to be done" I am not speaking personally (though I do love his games, and feel that they are basically masterpieces when you consider they were largely the products of a single person attempting to completely renovate a series; of course, whether his changes were incline or decline depends on what you are looking for). I mean, this is the Wizardry topic, but 99% of the talk is here is about Wiz 8 party builds, and when anyone brought up Wiz 1-5, it was more often than not ignored or met with scorn. Granted, that also has to do with the audience at this forum (I know the kind of games the average poster here likes), but I think it's also a microcosm of the market in the US at the time. I really do not think that US audiences would accept a straight dungeon game after Wiz 5 (I remember reviews of even Wiz 6 mentioning how the game is just a dungeon crawler at the time...).

In Japan, meanwhile, things never got really complicated at all. There was zero audience for bigger and more open worlds. FFS, people were buying millions of copies of Dragon Quest sequels, which had even the same fucking sound effects and battle system and EVEN status windows up until the PS2 game. The Japanese market does not want innovation, it wants nostalgia and something easy enough to play on a controller.

That is not to say that the Japanese Wiz games/clones are bad. As you know, I am a recent devotee of the Elminage games. However, what the US market (obviously what Sir Tech was focusing on) and Japanese market wanted were quite different imo.

 

[aweigh]

i would only argue with the usage of the words "innovation" and "nostalgia".

I would much rather play the "nostalgic" DQ7, with its NES sound effects and windows, than the "innovative" CRPG called Fallout 3 which, as we all know, was the antithesis of nostalgia.

the "easy to play on a controller" thing is 100% spot on, tho, and is another reason Wizardry flourished in japan: it is extremely portable to almost any conceivable console/device/input system.

Simplicity is elegance of design, and the mark of a well designed system, and it is the only way to achive meaningful depth. Going about it in others ways leads only to convolution, extrapolation and superfluity.

i'm of the mind that there is no true innovation, only simpler and more elegant (and thus better) reiteration. What most consider "innovation", (i.e. FO3 over FO1/2) in reality has nothing to do with the fact.

EDIT: to quote Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen comics:

"They claim their labors are to build a heaven, yet their heaven is populated by horrors. Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made."

 

[aweigh]

newtmonkey

here is a complete breakdown of Wiz mechanics taken from source code from wiz scenarios 1-3. All of it essentially holds true all the way up to the Elminage games in most respects, even if a few numbers change here and there the formulas/recipe for stuff are still the same.

yes, stuff like who goes first, chances of resurrection, hit points gained, damage and to-hit stuff, attacks per level, disarming shit: you can use all of this info for Elminage (and Wiz Empire games for that matter, and presumably Gaiden as well) and while 1 or 2 numbers may be higher or lower in later scenarios all of the formulas are unchanged.

obviously the new stuff added in elminage games, wiz empire or gaiden games operates by the rules they implemented (obviously), and the info here has no bearing on that.

also I even learned some interesting shit i never knew like the fact that in Wiz 1-3 (and 5, it stands to reason) the stock races have hidden resistances to properties/elements that, AFAIK, are never documented in the manuals:

(the following was taken from http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/ )

Wizardry 1-2-3 Game Code Calculations and Formulas
--------------------------------------------------

By: Snafaru

e-mail: snafaru@zimlab.com

web site: http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/

Created: 2013/09/22.

Updated: 2016/10/24, 2017/02/09.

Source codes:
- 1. From the Pascal (and assembler) source code files and generated listings for Wizardry_I, Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, made by Thomas William Ewers on June 15th, 2014, and available on the Asimov site at ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/games/rpg/wizardry/wizardry_I/
- 2. From the Pascal (and assembler) source code files and generated listings for Wizardry3, Legacy of Llylgamyn, made by Thomas William Ewers on March 27, 2012, and available on the Asimov site at ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/games/rpg/wizardry/wizardry_III/

Note: The information below is what you won't already find in the game manual.

Section 1: Character Statistics/Attributes
Section 2: Combat
Section 3: Spells
Section 4: Monsters
Section 5: Experience, Treasures and Traps



Section 1: Character Statistics/Attributes
------------------------------------------

*Your characters' names can be between 1 to 15 characters long.

*The available points to distribute between your Statistics/Attributes when creating your character goes as follows:
- It is (7 + (RANDOM 0 to 3)) with a 10% chance to add another 10 points as long as you total points are below 20, therefore the maximum points is 29.

*The younger you are the more chances you will gain attributes when leveling up (Strength, I.Q., Piety, Vitality, Agility, Luck) when leveling up (ex: 86% at age 18). Here's how it works:
- First, there's a 75% chance your attribute will be modified.
- Then, if your age is lower than a random roll up to 130 (that is 0 to 129), then if your attribute is 18 you have an 83.3% chance nothing will happen, if your attribute is less than 18 then you lose 1 attribute point, if your Vitality drops to 2, your are dead.
- If your age is higher than the random roll mentioned in the previous line, then you gain 1 attribute point up to 18 maximum.

*If you change class, your character ages by ((52 * (RANDOM 0 to 2)) + 252) weeks.

*The higher you I.Q. (Mage Spells) and Piety (Priest Spells), the higher your chance learn spells. Your chance to learn each unknown spell at the level you are allowed to is if your ability (I.Q. or Piety respectively > (RANDOM 0 to 29)).

*Your characters' Vitality has an effect on how many hit points are gained per level:
- Vitality 3: -2 hit points per level.
- Vitality 4,5: -1 hit points per level.
- Vitality 16: +1 hit points per level.
- Vitality 17: +2 hit points per level.
- Vitality 18: +3 hit points per level.

*Also, the higher your Vitality the higher the chances you will survive a resurrection attempt, see the spells section.

*The following are the starting hit points per class:
- Fighter, Lord is (50% chance of (10 + Vitality Modifier)) or (50% chance of ( 9 * (10 + Vitality Modifier) / 10 ))).
- Priest is (50% chance of (8 + Vitality Modifier)) or (50% chance of ( 9 * (8 + Vitality Modifier) / 10 ))).
- Thief, Bishop, Ninja is (50% chance of (6 + Vitality Modifier)) or (50% chance of ( 9 * (6 + Vitality Modifier) / 10 ))).
- Mage is (50% chance of (4 + Vitality Modifier)) or (50% chance of ( 9 * (4 + Vitality Modifier) / 10 ))).
- Samurai is (50% chance of (16 + Vitality Modifier)) or (50% chance of ( 9 * (16 + Vitality Modifier) / 10 ))).
In all cases the minimum is 2.

*The following are the base hit points gained per level per class, which is then modified by your Vitality (Minimum 1 after Vitality modifier):
- Fighter, Lord gain 1 to 10 base hit points per level on average.
- Priest, Samurai gain 1 to 8 base hit points per level on average.
- Thief, Bishop, Ninja gain 1 to 6 base hit points per level on average.
- Mage gain 1 to 4 base hit points per level on average.

*Each character starts at ((18 * 52) + (RANDOM 0 to 299)) weeks old.

*Each character starts with (90 + (RANDOM 0 to 99)) gold.

*At the Temple of Cant, the resurrect chance is (50 + 3 x Vitality)% if dead or (40 + 3 x Vitality)% if ashes, the character Ages by 1 to 52 weeks.

*At the Temple of Cant it costs you to cure your characters' condition:
- Paralyzed: (100 * Character Level) gold.
- Stoned: (200 * Character Level) gold.
- Dead: (250 * Character Level) gold.
- Ashes: (500 * Character Level) gold.


Section 2: Combat
-----------------

*Initiative, or if you prefer whom goes first in a battle.
For each of your characters it is ((RANDOM 0 to 9) + Agility Modifier):
- Agility 3: +3 Initiative
- Agility 4,5: +2 Initiative
- Agility 6,7: +1 Initiative
- Agility 15: -1 Initiative
- Agility 16: -2 Initiative
- Agility 17: -3 Initiative
- Agility 18: -4 Initiative
For each of the monsters it is a random number of ((RANDOM 0 to 8) + 2).
For either characters or monsters the highest is 1 and the lowest is 10 (1 goes first).
On equality characters go before monsters.

*The Fighter, Samurai, and Lord get 1 extra attack for every 5 levels. The Ninja has one extra swing on top of that which means a Level 1 Ninja starts with 2 swings. Other classes have only one swing at all levels. Some weapons inherently provide more swings, this is why getting a Long Sword + 2 early for example is so great because it gives 3 swings by default. The number of swings is the maximum between your weapon's inherent characteristics or what your characters' level provide, consequently they indeed do not add up together. The overall maximum number of swings is 10.

*Fighter, Priest, Samurai, Lord, Ninja have a naturally higher hit probability than other classes. Here's the code, HPCALCMD means Hit Probability Calculation Modifier:
IF (CLASS = PRIEST) OR
(CLASS = FIGHTER) OR
(CLASS >= SAMURAI) THEN
HPCALCMD := 2 + CHARLEV DIV 3
ELSE
HPCALCMD := CHARLEV DIV 5;

*All unarmed character classes do (1d2 + 1d2) damage per swing except the Ninja whom does (1d4 + 1d4) per swing plus the Strength bonus or penalty. For example an unarmed level 1 Ninja with 18 Strength would have 2 swings doing ( (1d4 + 1d4) + 3 ) damage each for a potential of 22 damage total per round.

*If unarmed, the Ninja's AC (Amour Class) = (10 - ( Ninja Level / 3 ) - 2). The ( Ninja Level / 3 ) part is rounded down. The -2 here is a good thing.

*If a Ninja hits with damage, then the Ninja has ( 2 * Level )% chance up to a maximum of 50% chance to score a Critical Hit. Then the monster has ((Monster Level + 10) < (RANDOM 0 to 34)) chance to avoid it, which means a monster over Level 23 cannot be Critically Hit.

*Your characters' Strength has an effect on the hit chance probability and damage per swing:
- Strength 3: -15% chance to hit, -3 damage per swing
- Strength 4: -10% chance to hit, -2 damage per swing
- Strength 5: -5% chance to hit, -1 damage per swing
- Strength 16: +5% chance to hit, +1 damage per swing
- Strength 17: +10% chance to hit, +2 damage per swing
- Strength 18: +15% chance to hit, +3 damage per swing
So, for example, for each combat turn your Level 10 Ninja with a Strength of 18 can do 12 extra damage points total with his 4 swings, all of it with 15% more chance to hit, this is significant.

*If a character or monster is sleeping or held then they take double damage!

*When your weapon is purposed vs. a certain type of monster you do double damage to it!

*Priests, Bishops and Lords have the ability to dispel undead monsters back to their plane:
- They have ((50 + (5 * Character Level)) - (10 * Monster Level))% chance to succeed on each monster of a group.
- The Bishop has this ability beginning at level 4 but with 20% less chance to succeed.
- The Lord has this ability beginning at level 9 but with 40% less chance to succeed.

*Resistances:
- vs. Poison & Paralysis & Critical Hit: Fighter 15%, Samurai 10%, Lord 10%, Ninja 15%, and if race is Human 5%.
- vs. Stoning: Priest 15%, Bishop 10%, Lord 10%, Ninja 10%, and if race is Gnome 10%.
- vs. Breath Attacks: Bishop 10%, Ninja 20%, and if race is Elf 10% to reduce the Breath damage by half.
- vs. Poison Gas chest trap: Thief 15%, Ninja 15%, and if race is Dwarf 20%.
- vs. Anti-Mage and Anti-Priest chest trap and Silence: Mage 15%, Bishop 10%, Samurai 10%, Ninja 10%, and if race is Hobbit 15%.
- vs. all of the above: add 5% for every 5 Levels of your character.
- vs. all of the above: add 5% if your Luck is 6, 10% if your Luck is 12, and 15% if your Luck is 18.
The overall maximum resistance is 95%.

*Once a character is poisoned, there is 25% chance each round during combat or each maze movement that the poison will take effect.

*If a character does not resist a Critical Hit (see Resistances above), then the character still has another (Character Level * 2)% chance up to a maximum of 50% chance to avoid being Critically Hit.

*In Wizardry 1 there is a 1 in 2000 chance a good character will turn evil if the party fights a group of Friendly monsters.

*In Wizardry 1 an evil party never encounters Friendly monsters.

*In Wizardry 3 there is a 5% chance a good character will turn evil if the party fights a group of Friendly monsters.

*In Wizardry 3 there is a 5% chance an evil character will turn good if the party does not fight a group of Friendly monsters.

*Each round each character has (I.Q. + Piety + Level)% chance of correctly identifying one group of monsters.



Section 3: Spells
-----------------

PRIEST SPELLS

*MILWA: Light for (15 + (RANDOM 0-14)) turns.

*MANIFO: A character or monster has (50 + (10 * Level))% chance to resist Manifo (Hold).

*MONTINO: A monster has (10 * Monster Level)% chance to resist Montino (Silence).

*LOMILWA: Light for 32,000 turns.

*CALFO: 95% chance to identify a chest trap.

*DI or KADORTO: The resurrect chance is (4 x Vitality)% of the recipient.

*BADI: A character or monster has (10 * Level)% chance to avoid being slain.

*LOKTOFEIT: Has (2 * Character Level)% chance of succeeding (Teleport back to Castle during combat).


MAGE SPELLS

*KATINO: A character or monster has (20 * Level)% chance of not being slept.

*MAKANITO: Undead are unaffected. Monsters level 8 or above are unaffected.

*LAKANITO: Each monster has (6 * Level)% chance of not being smothered.

*ZILWAN: Does (10d200) damages to an Undead monster, in other words that's adding 10 rolls of a random number between 1 and 200 damages.

*TILTOWAIT: Does (10d15) damages to all monsters (the game manual wrongly lists it as (10d10) damages), in other words that's adding 10 rolls of a random number between 1 and 15 damages.

*HAMAN and MAHAMAN: On a roll of (RANDOM 0 to Character Level) = 5 the caster will unlearn some spells. The following message will be displayed "But his spell books are mangled!"

*HAMAN For Wizardry 1 has 3 possible effects:
1. "DIALKO'S PARTY 3 TIMES" - cures Afraid, Asleep, Paralysis, Stoning, Silence, and Heals each character for (9 * ((RANDOM 0 to 7) +1)) Hit points.
2. "ZAPS MONSTER MAGIC RESISTANCE!" - the first 3 groups of monsters cannot make a saving throw against damaging spells.
3. "HEALS PARTY!" - cures Afraid, Asleep, Paralysis, Stoning, Silence, and restores all Hit Points.

*MAHAMAN For Wizardry 1 has 3 possible effects:
1. "DIALKO'S PARTY 3 TIMES" - cures Afraid, Asleep, Paralysis, Stoning, Silence, and Heals each character for (9 * ((RANDOM 0 to 7) +1)) Hit points.
2. "SILENCES MONSTERS!" - silences the first 3 groups of monsters for ((5 + (RANDOM 0 to 4)) rounds.
3. "DESTROYS MONSTERS!" - all monsters' Status=Dead and Hit Points=0.

*HAMAN For Wizardry 3 has 5 possible effects:
1. "CURE THE PARTY" - cures Afraid, Asleep, Paralysis, Stoning conditions.
2. "SILENCE THE MONSTERS" - silences the first 3 groups of monsters for ((5 + (RANDOM 0 to 4)) rounds.
3. "MAKE MAGIC MORE EFFECTIVE" - the first 3 groups of monsters cannot make a saving throw against damaging spells and are thereafter treated as being Level 1 for other calculations regarding the spells.
4. "TELEPORT THE MONSTERS" - all monsters' Status=Dead and Hit Points=0.
5. "HEAL THE PARTY" - restores all Hit Points.

*MAHAMAN For Wizardry 3 has all of the HAMAN effects above plus 2 new possible effects:
6. "PROTECT THE PARTY" - each character's AC=-10 unless it is even better (lower).
7. "REANIMATE CORPSES!" - cures Afraid, Asleep, Paralysis, Stoning, Death, Ashes conditions.


RECUPERATION FROM SPELL EFFECTS

*Monster have (20 * Monster Level)% or up to 50% maximum chance to recuperate from sleep spells.

*Monster have (10 * Monster Level)% or up to 50% maximum chance to recuperate from fear spells.

*Monster have (7 * Monster Level)% or up to 50% maximum chance to recuperate from paralyzing (hold) spells.

*Characters have (10 * Character Level)% or up to 50% maximum chance to recuperate from sleep spells.

*Characters have (5 * Character Level)% or up to 50% maximum chance to recuperate from fear spells.



Section 4: Monsters
-------------------

*You will encounter a maximum of 2 monster groups on maze level 1, a maximum of 3 on level 2, and up to 4 on level 4 and beyond.

*You will encounter a maximum of 5 monsters per monster group on level 1, 6 on level 2, 7 on level 3, 8 on level 4, and 9 beyond.

*Each character has (IQ + Piety + Level)% chance to correctly identify monsters.

*When an encounter occurs you have a 20% of surprising the monsters, if you have not surprised them, then the monsters get a 20% chance of surprising you.

*Some monsters have the capability to call for help. The ones that do so have a 75% chance to call for help if their group count drops below 5. Then, if ((RANDOM 0 to 199) > (10 * Monster Level)) no help will come.

*Some monsters have a breath weapon. The ones that do so have a 60% chance of using it. If you resist (see Resistances above), you character takes 1/2 damage. If you have equipment that protects you from breath weapons then your character takes 1/2 damage.

*The monsters' magic resistance against damaging spells is a saving throw versus their Magic Resistance % attribute which is for most a low number.

*The monsters that have resistances to FIRE and COLD elements take only 1/2 damage when hit from such damaging spells.

*Spell casting monsters have a 75% chance to do so during their turn.



Section 5: Experience, Treasures and Traps
------------------------------------------

*To inspect or disarm a trap your character's status has to be "OK".

*The Thief has (6 * Agility)% chance to identify a trap, the Ninja has (4 * Agility)%, both up to a maximum of 95%. Calfo has 95% chance.

*If your Thief or Ninja fails to identify a trap there is a ((RANDOM 0 to 19) > Agility) chance they will activate the trap.

*The Thief or Ninja's chance to disarm a trap is ((RANDOM 0 to 69) < (Character Level - Maze Level + 50)).

*Here's the breakdown of the effects of traps:
- POISON NEEDLE : The character popping the trap is Poisoned.
- GAS BOMB : Each character does a saving throw against their Poison Resistance or else is Poisoned.
- CROSSBOW BOLT : The character popping the trap is hit for ((Maze Level)d8) damages.
- EXPLODING BOX : Each character has 50% chance of taking ((Maze Level)d8) damages.
- SPLINTERS : Each character has 70% chance of taking ((Maze Level)d6) damages.
- BLADES : Each character has 30% chance of taking ((Maze Level)d12) damages.
- STUNNER : The character popping the trap is Paralyzed.
- TELEPORTER : The entire party is teleported to a random location and direction on the same maze level.
- ANTI-MAGE : Each Mage and Samurai does a saving throw against their Anti-Mage Resistance. If it fails the Samurai is Paralyzed. If it fails the Mage is Paralyzed, and if the Mage is already Paralyzed, then the Mage is turned into Stone.
- ANTI-PRIEST : Each Priest and Bishop does a saving throw against their Anti-Priest Resistance. If it fails the Bishop is Paralyzed. If it fails the Priest is Paralyzed, and if the Priest is already Paralyzed, then the Priest is turned into Stone.
- ALARM : The party must immediately face another encounter.

*If you fail to disarm at trap you still have a ((RANDOM 0 to 19) < Agility) chance to avoid activating it, thus giving you another opportunity to disarm it.

*The Bishop has (10 + (5 * Character Level))% chance to correctly identify an item. Then there is a (35 - (3 * Character Level))% chance your Bishop will accidentally equip a cursed item whether identification was successful or not.

*Each character gets experience points after a fight only if their status is "OK".

*You don't get experience points for monsters that have been dispelled or have ran away.

*In Wizardry 1, you can invoke the Special Powers of some items you find. Using an item's Special Power may destroy it:
- MURASAMA BLADE : Strength + 1.
- SHURIKEN : Maximum Hit Points + 1.
- THIEVES DAGGER : Change Class to Ninja.
- LORDS GARB: Heals all Hit Points of all characters.
- WERDNA'S AMULET : Heals all Hit Points of all characters.
//Note that in Wizardry 1 other Special Powers were possible but never used:
- If your Age > 20 years old then you get younger by 1 year.
- Get older by 1 year.
- Change Class to Samurai.
- Change Class to Lord.
- Add 50,000 Gold.
- Add 50,000 Experience.
- Change Status to Lost.
- Change Status to OK, cure all Hit Points, and cure Poison.

EDIT: even stuff like monster grouping amounts is the same in Elminage games, though obviously they use their own tables, and stuff like monster recuperation and basically almost every single mechanic.

since you're playing through Elminage: Original right now i still recommend checking out the japanese Wiki in order to get the proper Elminage numbers for formulas/calculations, as obviously Elminage is packed with tons more content/features/races/spells/formulas/abilities, etc.

 

[Wayward Son]

Aweigh I agree with what you said when you stated that most posters here started with WizVI and are as such pre-programmed in a sense to prefer those. I tend to notice the reverse. I love 1-5 to death, but for whatever reason can't find it in me to even get through the Castle in WizVI. I'd much rather begin another party's attempt to conquer the Proving Grounds. And it can't be chalked up to nostalgia for me, since I wasn't even born when any Wiz (except 8, not sure on the release date for that one TBH) came out.

 

[aweigh]

in my case it isn't nostalgia either. for years i also believed that crawlers were too primitive, and i even used to think they weren't "true" rpgs because they didn't feature dialog branches like PS:T or whatever bullshit.

i wasn't until I sat down and played through Elminage: Gothic and Wizardry Empire that I fell in love with traditional Wizardry's game play mechanics. I worked my way backwards then and played through all of the classic scenarios, and then went sideways and played through other Wiz-clones and "DRPGs" that I could find.

Even though my first Wiz was Wiz8, at the time I played it I had no notion of what a dungeon crawler was or entailed, and in fact I remember starting and stopping my first playthrough of Wiz 8 because it didn't provide me with stuff I had experienced in the RPGs I was used to playing: a lot of NPCs to talk to, etc.

In my case it was exhaustion of RPGs that finally led me to try out Elminage/Wizardry games. I had spent years playing what the Codex consider RPGs, i.e. branching A/B/C story-states or adventure game-hybrids like Arcanum or PS:T, and while playing Wizardry/Elminage I realized that for the first time in years I was having fun playing thru an RPG because of its game play.

I had not experienced that feeling of enjoyment in a long, long time, as I had become used to RPGs giving me enjoyment in everything else but the game play. It is why I believe classic Wizardry (and all its derivatives) are closer to a purer RPG experience in video game form than branching A/B/C choose-your-own-adventure style adventure game hybrids.

Wizardry 1, as you mention, can be endlessly replayed because it features amazing game play, and that is something that matters much more to me now than whether or not Fed Ex Quest #29 will raise my Faction Points by +1 or +2.

EDIT: it is also why I have such disgust for the dumbing down Bradley introduced in 6 and 7 (which continued in 8). I started with true Wizardry mechanics (Wiz/Elminage/japanese Wiz scenarios), so when I was working my way through the classic Wiz scenarios and finally made my way up to entry #6... I was heart-broken.

every single mechanic was reduced in complexity and in exchange the design and balance was of the games became non-existent.

Imagine my incredible surprise when I start reading threads on the Codex about wizardry and see that almost no one has even played through the games or understands them!

 

[newtmonkey]

i would only argue with the usage of the words "innovation" and "nostalgia".

I would much rather play the "nostalgic" DQ7, with its NES sound effects and windows, than the "innovative" CRPG called Fallout 3 which, as we all know, was the antithesis of nostalgia.

When I reread my post, I realized that it sounded like I was criticizing DQ etc., when I didn't mean to imply that (since "nostalgia" often has a negative connotation). I was just trying to describe how Japanese fans (and reviewers) are not as strict when it comes to lack of "change" in long running series. I mean, every time a DQ game is released it is met with near universal praise here, whereas I remember when DQ7 was released in the US people generally responded with "LOLZ ITS LIKE PLAYING A FUCKIN SNES GAME LOLOLOL" Another example is how the Dynasty Warriors games are treated in the English speaking world vs Japan.

I also remember solid games like Might & Magic 7/8 getting blasted all over the place cuz they were "no different" from previous games in the series.

 

[aweigh]

yes, i agree whole-heartedly with what you're saying. it is most definitely valid to say that western game market is more concerned with how something appears than how it plays, more concerned with something to present the illusion of change for the mere sake of it regardless of what is sacrificed.

i think most western gamers have been conditioned to think that simple means bad or flawed or lacking, when in reality it constitutes completion of self; or that old means obsolete or irrelevant and thus aberrant.

it is ironic because philosophically speaking the process of illumination thrives most vividly in its simplicity of understanding, so that it is a mirror shining back the reflection of the universe.

calling something simple is one of the highest compliments one can pay something because it means it's nature is self-evident and thus truthful and infinite.

 

[Wayward Son]

Getting deep up in here. Talking bout the nature of simplicity itself and shieet

 

[aweigh]

I fucking love crawlers to death, especially Wiz-clones more than anything else and I think there really isn't any need to ever deviate too far from the traditional Wiz-blueprint, but I find the Gen XTH games with their endless tedious crafting and shit balance for both items, classes and enemies and inconsistent quality of dungeons to be too much to overcome to justify the amount of hours necessary to finish them.

First, go play all the Elminage games you can play (specifically E: Original and E: Gothic, as games 2 and 3 are just expansion packs for E: Original with zero change in game play), then go play all the Wizardry scenarios, obviously including the japanese Wizardry games from the Empire and Gaiden series that have been translated or have Eng. Lang. options (Empire 2, Gaiden 1-4 and Gaiden 6 basically)...

...then after going thru all that or in-between them whatever, go play Stranger of Sword City which is Exp Inc's only legitimately good game, a game I thoroughly enjoyed and played thru twice (though the 2nd time I didn't bother finishing it to completion). I hear Exp Inc's demon Gaze games for VITA are also good, but I haven't played them yet due to lack of VITA but eventually will play them.

THEN (!), and only then (!!!) go play all other Wiz-clones, like Class of Heroes 1 and 2 (which I enjoyed, though have never bothered finishing either game nor ever will finish them), Beyond The Labyrinth for 3ds, the labyrinth of touhou games (though I don't really like those games too much since they play more like SRPGs than anything else and operate under a top-down view which I disliked), the Bard's Tale games, the Might and Magic games (the good ones only, please), etc, etc, etc....

...fuck and I forgot about the wonderful gem that is Paper Sorcerer, which is an indie crawler available on STEAM modeled after WIZARDRY 4's game play mechanics (in a good way, don't worry, the game isn't about replicating Wiz 4 but about summoning your team mates from the monster pools and using them in combat).

Obviously this play-list is meant to be humorous and not some sort of serious statement on my behalf, as personal tastes should differ between everybody, and frankly speaking sometimes you just get sick of playing a 'crawler and want to play something else. There are a lot more japanese "DRPGs" than I've ever even managed to bother viewing on youtube and games that play like a Wiz-clone but are not and are instead their own thing though obviously inspired by them.

There are indie crawlers in the truest sense of the word like Lord of Seal which was "reviewed" in a thread by Shackleton a while ago and is like, 2 bucks on steam. There are other indie crawlers that are of a bit higher production quality available as well like the amazing Paper Sorcerer, which is also on STEAM and one of my favorite RPG experiences in years due to its graphics, music, story, play mechanics and overall design.

The main problem is finding these games. A lot of them are "DRPGs" from japan, with the majority of these featuring solid Wizardry-style play mechanics with anime aesthetic to varying degrees, with Elminage: Gothic being the absolute best of the best and featuring Western-inspired art for the most part instead of straight-anime.

Then you have the uber-underground gems like Paper Sorcerer and Lord of Seal that frankly you'd probably never even hear about unless from a thread on a fan-site/forum like the Codex is for RPGs (where even then it is extremely niche even within the niche).

And lastly we have series of games like for example the SMT series which are 100% Wizardry-inspired but are 100% their own thing, with the earlier titles in the series (such as the recently released remake of SMT: Soul Hackers for 3DS) featuring straight-up 1st person Wiz-style dungeon crawling with proper dungeons and all the accompanying bells and whistles.

jesus and I forgot about the PS2 Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land (a game which features amazing atmosphere and art which is a mix of anime and european aesthetics), but more importantly features the best soundtrack I've heard on any dungeon crawler, with unbelievably great sound design that makes the dungeons stay with you long after playing them and in many ways evoke the sense of unease that you'd get from something like a Dark Souls dungeon; and to top it off Tale of the Forsaken Land features EXCELLENT dungeons that vary between twisty-turny fuck-you to this-is-fucking-great-dungeon-design.

(to this day Wizardry: TotFL is the only 'crawler that has managed to genuinely creep me out while i've been knee-deep inside a dungeon due to enemies sometimes materializing on-screen as wisps of human-shaped dust and air that run through hallways in hopes of bumping into you, doors that will randomly rattle on their hinges when you pass by them, and flat-out genuine jump-scares).

never played any other 'crawler that has ever even attempted to do that legit-creepy atmosphere in their dungeons. In any case, there are still tons of games I didn't even mention, mostly because right now I can't remember them, but I think I mentioned all of the must-play Wizardry scenarios / Wiz-clones above.

EDIT EDIT: well, E: Gothic for sure has some legit creepy dungeons, with the Inner Sanctum and its progressively creepier gothic aesthetic becoming more and more demonic the further down you go, with creepy cultist NPCs waiting to talk to you about how they're gonna rape your soul and having to destroy satanic ritual altars and all that jazz in order to progress through the dungeon until eventually reaching, well, hell itself.

i also forgot about a moment in E: Gothic (inside the Inner Sanctum dungeon) when you are chased by vampires for the first half of the dungeon and the game giving you descriptions of how they're flitting about in the shadows, watching you, etc, until you randomly encounter them.

lol, didn't expect this to turn into descriptions of creepy moments in Wiz-clones, but it's for the better because it helps fight the extremely misguided notion that modern Wizardry scenarios (i.e. japanese ones) and modern Wiz-clones (i.e. Elminage) are some sort of battle simulation experience when in reality most of them feature more atmosphere, dialog and NPC interaction than the vaunted Bradley-Wizardry titles.

FINAL EDIT: oh, also forgot to name drop DEVIL'S WHISKEY.

Anyway don't really have any point to end this with just wanted to, once again, try in my own small way to shed light on the existence of proper turn-based dungeon crawlers. I'm like one of those people who desperately wants to save souls and will go knock on doors, and if 1000 people dismiss the games I talk about but at least one person manages to discover the absolute joy that Wizardry and the legacy of games that Wizardry has helped nourish throughout the years then It was worth it.

FOR REAL FINAL EDIT: I fucking forgot to mention the GREAT "The Dark Spire" for NDS!!!!!! one of the absolute best Wiz-clones of recent times made by the team behind the PS1 remakes of Wizardry 1-3.

 

[Filthy Sauce]

You guys like to shit on exp inc games for sure. I'm throwing some defense for operation babel. I think too many people ignore it because operation abyss is fucking retarded. The dungeons have interesting layouts and there's a decent (although admittedly primitive) multiclass system.

 

[aweigh]

i talked more about Operation babel in GENXTH thread in the JRPG forum where I basically say it is worth playing much more so than Abyss, and go into detail on its pros and cons, how it's better and all that.

the first portion of my post began in the Gen XTH thread in the JRPG forum which is why I start out talking about EXP INC, but I then edited it and turned it into a general overview of Wiz-clones and japanese Wizardry games for purposes of posting it in this thread.

TL;DR: I think Gen XTH crawlers are competent Wiz-clones and good for a rainy day when you've exhausted all other options, and I definitely consider them better than stuff like Class of Heroes, but the existence of Stranger of Sword City renders the Gen XTH games obsolete in my opinion.

oh, and for anyone even thinking of posting "DIS THREAD IS ABOUT WIZARDRY NOT ANIME SHIT" well, sucks for you but Gen XTH games (and SoSC) are made by ex-Wizardry developers, and Gen XTH itself are partly "remakes" of Wizardry XTH series, yet another japanese Wizardry series which, like all japanese Wizardry titles is more canon and more "Wizardry" than any Western Wizardry made after scenario 5.

the vast majority of all japanese "DRPGs" coming out nowadays are being made by studios that used to work on Wizardry titles from the 2000-2006 time period when the license was fully sold to the japanese.

Wiz Gaiden, Wiz Empire and Wiz XTH all began in the years 1999-2000, and by around 2005-2007 all the studios involved in those series were by then involved in making their own Wiz-clones.

I also forgot to name drop the great WIZARDRY: CHRONICLE for Windows PC, recently also translated by codexers (like almost eveyr other japanese Wizardry). That one came out in 2001 and is not related to any other japanese Wiz series and is stand-alone with some very good dungeon design and its own take on the races and other mechanics (though still 100% Wizardry).

 

[Eggs is eggs]

After playing through some of the early Wizardries, I would honestly call them "Mapping puzzles with combat" more than RPGs. At some point I would love to play through Wiz 1-3 and hand map them all by myself. 4 would be interesting as well but I think that one would drive me crazy.

 

[octavius]

Are "Mapping puzzles with combat" less RPGs than interactive movies?

 

[aweigh]

it all depends on whether or not you think the agency in an RPG stems from dialog branches or from its gameplay. The classic trapped chest scenario in Wizardry features more role-playing agency for the player than many of the top Codex-approved RPGs, and one of the best examples of how game play mechanics promote emergent game play in an RPG.

 

[TigerKnee]

(Corridor) Walking Simulators

 

[Grauken]

Don't trigger aweigh, or he'll kill you with a wall of text

 

[Ventidius]

Are "Mapping puzzles with combat" less RPGs than interactive movies?

In so far as the former tend to have extensive and detailed character/party building options while the latter tend not to, then yes, they are vastly more RPG.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

It's not meant to disparage the Wiz games at all, but you need 2 things to win the first game: A map of the dungeon, and a powerful enough party to get to Werdna and kill him. (I guess you technically need the blue ribbon as well) It's an amazing game and still holds up today in the fact that they are making clones of it, almost FORTY years later.

 

[Ventidius]

It is true that the challenge of this type of crawler can be mitigated by looking up a map, but there is an easy solution for that: don't cheat. On the other hand, tactical RPGs rely on crappy AIs to create challenge, which doesn't suffer of that particular issue, but suffers of the even worse problem of being comparatively easy ( especially since they often don't have multiplayer, unlike pure tactics games that usually have PBEM MP). By making the handcrafted dungeon the enemy, Wiz-likes don't need to rely on the limited capacities of AI to provide a challenge, as the fights are only there to whittle down your resources and hinder your exploration of the maze.

Then you have reactivity-based RPGs which create challenge through sheer obscurity, e.g. your having to guess what the dev thought would be an appropiate resolution for a dialogue or quest , which is relatively artificial compared to exploring a maze. Not to mention in these you can also look up the spoiler-solutions on the internet. Heck, come think of it, all RPGs can be trivialized through spoilers as these are games were your build often matters more than your on-the-spot tactics, and the best builds are easy to find online. As far as PvE goes, dungeon crawling is probably one the least artificial and most rewarding forms of challenge in gaming. Sure, it is easy to beat the game by cheating, but so is the case with most single-player games that don't involve twitch-skills/reflexes or don't incorporate heavy procedural elements, like roguelikes.

 

[newtmonkey]

Starting mapping level 5 of Wiz 1, with Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead playing in the background for maximum atmosphere.


I know I am only half way through the game or so, but clearing that boss encounter in level 4 is a game changer.

First (at least in the Wiz Archives version), you basically never have to worry about money again (you can even repeatedly pop that encounter in this version for an unlimited supply of money, if you wanted).

Second, by that point your spellcasters should be around level 9 or so, so your mages will be walking death machines. You have so many options available with your spellcasters at this time, it is like night and day versus the state you are in just a couple levels prior.

Third, you can play very conservatively once you unlock that second elevator, since it is easy and quick as hell to return to town if you start feeling like you are in over your head.

Great stuff!

 

[aweigh]

it's all fun and games until enemies Tiltowait you :D

also right about this point where you're at in a Wiz game is when you suddenly realize: whoa, going before my enemy goes is super important, and it dawns on you how important the Agility attribute is.