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No One Lives Forever

Zenith

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Afaik the current Monolith hasn't been the Monolith of old since roughly Fear 2.
Can you elaborate or are you just going by overall quality nosedive? I always assumed they had at least two teams, seeing how Condemned and Fear1 were released within a month from each other (close anyway, can't be bothered to check tbh).

I know some codexers hate Condemned, but I thought it was pretty great too, and in general, with the variety of top notch stuff Monolith put out (without milking the franchises, too), I probably respected them more than any other comparable dev studio. Never looked into behind the scenes stuff though.
 

Darth Roxor

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Can you elaborate or are you just going by overall quality nosedive?

The people behind the old Monolith games haven't been at the company for a very long time now. A bunch of them for instance released Betrayer three years ago as Blackpowder Games.
 

Roguey

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Both these games are garbage, as I figured they would be.

The first one suffers from finicky, unsatisfying stealth; it's far quicker and easier to just mow down everything in your path when you're not required to sneak lest you get a game over, but shooting things is pretty boring because it was :balance: to be a crappy sneaker. While the art style looks good, the eyes on the character models are all wrong and those overly-long, overly-expository cutscenes look like freaky puppet shows with their dead eyes.

To their credit, they genuinely tried to improve a great deal with the sequel. Ya have the addition of leaning alongside less finicky-feeling stealth, the convenience feature of Cate automatically using the tool for the job whenever you press the action key at a lockpick or something that needs welding, etc., the eyes are no longer dead, they cut down significantly on cutscene length and exposition scenes. Unfortunately they ruined the entire experience in their attempt to address the "Why bother with the slow pace of sneaking when you can just mow everything down?" problem with those garbage respawns. They don't make it more challenging, they're just a constant, frequent annoyance. I stopped playng near the end of Siberia because if it's this annoying this early, I'm sure it's only going to get worse later on, and I was fed up dealing with constant crashes (it even takes multiple tries to get a save to load when starting fresh) and random graphics errors (disabled everything that could be disabled, didn't work, have no idea what's causing these issues other than "old game, new os/hardware").

Style>Substance, graphics/muh "funny" narrative>gameplay nonsense.

As a final note, I found it terribly amusing to see this conservative message in a game that goes all-in on hamfisted "women are just as capable at combat-roles as men" dialogue (and guess what, the sexist who argues with you all game is a bad guy, bet you thought they were going to subvert expectations and just make him merely misguided, but nope, we're dealing with pure black and white morality here).

dkbbkLP.jpg
 

Wirdschowerdn

Ph.D. in World Saving
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Can you elaborate or are you just going by overall quality nosedive?

The people behind the old Monolith games haven't been at the company for a very long time now. A bunch of them for instance released Betrayer three years ago as Blackpowder Games.

I wonder if Blackpowder is dead too. Haven't heard a peep from these guys.

Except that Craig Hubbard (Shogo, NOLF, FEAR, Betrayer writer) is now working as Narrative Director at Massive Entertainment (The Division). Probably on the new Avatar game.
 

mwnn85

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One of my favourite shooters of all time.
Right up there with Blood, Duke3D, Doom, Quake 1, Unreal (esp Tournament 1999), etc.

I bought & played the sequel first expecting an improvement but it's not half as good as the first game.
The enemy respawn and baked on skill system don't do anything for it. Feels clunky as well.
It still has some excellent set piece moments though; it's hard to dislike Siberia.
Monolith upped their game with Tron and Fear.

The first game is slick, fast and funny. Deserves a GOG release.
 

Roguey

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That tells me you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about.

NOLF 1 > NOLF 2 >>>>>> Contract Jack.

I listed the ways in which they improved (or tried to improve it) and then noted that one attempt at a fix ruined it to the point where I couldn't even be bothered to finish unlike the first (though I suppose I might have if not for the crashes, who knows).
 

Carrion

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NOLF2 improved the stealth system (not that NOLF1 was ever intended to be a stealth game per se) and some aspects of the gunplay, but that's about it. It's much shorter and still has poor pacing and a ton of filler, the quality of the levels and the tone of the game are all over the place, and the plot is nonexistent and not good enough to even serve as a throwaway joke. The first game was incredibly consistent and fun all the way through, and the sequel reaches the same level in only a handful of places.
 

Roguey

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(not that NOLF1 was ever intended to be a stealth game per se)
:hmmm:

Was it an Alpha Protocol-like situation where they made a shooter and midway through development decided that a spy should probably also sneak? I mean it certainly felt that way.

And that reminds me - NOLF's bosses were wretched, even worse than AP's. If it wasn't gimmicky trash like electrocuting the unfunny bad opera singer a dozen times or a ludicrous fist fight with a Scot, it was trading potshots with bullet sponges behind cover.
 

Carrion

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Was it an Alpha Protocol-like situation where they made a shooter and midway through development decided that a spy should probably also sneak? I mean it certainly felt that way.
On the contrary, the shooting and the sneaking go hand in hand. There's little point in trying to ghost most levels or do a non-lethal playthrough, but you can avoid detection, take enemies out silently and go through almost the entire game without setting off an alarm (and it's FUN). Comparing it to Alpha Protocol is silly, as AP's gameplay is a giant mess while the different elements of NOLF work really well together.
 

Roguey

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On the contrary, the shooting and the sneaking go hand in hand. There's little point in trying to ghost most levels or do a non-lethal playthrough, but you can avoid detection, take enemies out silently and go through almost the entire game without setting off an alarm (and it's FUN). Comparing it to Alpha Protocol is silly, as AP's gameplay is a giant mess while the different elements of NOLF work really well together.

I was curious enough to look this stuff up. Turns out that I'm not only right, the lead designer acknowledged and agreed with every one of my criticisms.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131478/postmortem_monoliths_no_one_.php?page=3

We were months into development before we had a signed contract for No One Lives Forever, although various publishers had green lighted the project no fewer than four times before then. During this interval, the project mutated constantly in order to please prospective producers and marketing departments. The game actually started off as a mission-based, anime-inspired, paramilitary action thriller intended as a spiritual sequel to Shogo and ended up as a 60s spy adventure in the tradition of Our Man Flint and countless other 60s spy movies and shows. The schedule fluctuated between a minimum of six months and a maximum of twenty-four, the intended feature set scaling accordingly.

Needless to say, it took us a while to get a handle on exactly what we were making, which tended to be a bit disquieting. Really, though, you can't take it personally. You just have to adapt and survive, which is precisely what we did. Each time the schedule changed, we came up with an entirely new proposal instead of trying to cram a 20 month game into 11 months. It just so happened that when the roulette wheel finally clicked to a stop, we were planning to make a 60s spy adventure game. As I mentioned, we were then able to draft a mission statement and stick to it, but we bled away many precious weeks prior to that point.

Given the prolonged uncertainty at the beginning of the project, it's not especially surprising that pre-production was neither as thorough nor as productive as it could have been. We had certainly done a tremendous amount of research, but not enough of it was focused on things that would benefit the project directly.

Most notably, planning for the game environments was too broad and unfocused to provide the foundation we had hoped for. As a result, level designers often started working on a setting with plenty of reference material but without the proper direction. A folder packed with miscellaneous images isn't especially useful compared to a handful of carefully selected references organized and agreed upon by everyone who will be involved in creating the area.

Another complication was that every time the schedule expanded or contracted, which it did on a regular basis those first few months, the feature list changed along with it. Unfortunately, most of the expansion happened late in the process-when the project jumped from 11 months to 18-which meant we had to add features at the last minute in order to fill out the development cycle. Under the circumstances, it was impossible to spec everything out fully before we signed the contract, effectively committing us to features we hadn't fully investigated.

It's easy to dive headlong into development the moment a contract is signed. The excitement of starting something new and the urgency you feel when you look at the schedule encourage you to get started right away. It's only months later when you're slaving to finish up all the partially implemented features and redo unacceptable levels for the third time that you realize that effort spent in pre-production pays for itself many times over during the final weeks of the project.

Cinematic overload. This point is admittedly a bit self indulgent, but I'm the one writing the post mortem, after all. Anyway, if there's one aspect of the game about which I remain ambivalent, it's the in-game cinematics. I'm generally pleased with the understated camerawork and shot composition, and there are definitely scenes I'm proud of, but overall there's plenty of room for improvement. The problems fell into a couple of distinct categories:

Technical difficulties. Implementing in-game cutscenes in NOLF proved to be a frustrating, time-consuming ordeal, especially considering how many of them there were. As a result, I generally had to go with the easiest solution rather than the most desirable one. Due to time constraints, I also had to sacrifice many of the cutaways I'd hoped to do to keep the briefings interesting. To make matters worse, we'd done the motion capture based on the original script, so with the cutaways excised, I had a very limited pool of applicable animations to draw from.

The bottom line is that rudimentary cinematic techniques that filmmakers rely on and take for granted can be a massive headache for game developers. A movie director can say, "Hey, Joe, can you pick up the gun, check to see if it's loaded, and then go over and peek through the shades?" For a game developer, just getting a character to pick up the gun convincingly can be a technical nightmare. Any time a character interacts with an object, the environment, or another character, you're likely to spend a lot of time simply trying to make it look natural. When time is in short supply, complicated blocking that adds life to a scene get simplified.

Conceptual flaws. The biggest problem was a conceptual blunder on my part. Instead of relying on my understanding of scene structure and exposition in film, I fell into the trap of thinking of game cinematics as stylistically unique, partly because games run so much longer than films and partly because the player, by stepping into the role of the hero, would seem to require more information than an audience watching the story unfold. The most obvious byproduct of this oversight was that I deviated from standard screenplay format, which made it impossible to gauge the duration of a given scene. In filmmaking, a page translates to roughly a minute of screen time. The NOLF script was far more dense than a screenplay, which made it easy to underestimate the how long a scene would run.


If you've played NOLF, you might be surprised to learn that my screenwriting problem has always tended to be divulging too little information. I favor tight pacing, defining character by action rather than dialogue, and subtlety over obviousness. When I was writing this script, probably because I was inventing my own format, I fell into novelistic conversational rhythms. The problem is that what flows on the page tends to drag on screen.


Unfortunately, by the time I recognized the mistake, it was way too late to do anything about it.

Irony of ironies: Roxor, who rages about all the words words words that one can skim/speed-read through in modern crpgs apparently doesn't have a problem with NOLF's walls of voice acting which you either have to listen through all the way or skip entirely.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...No_One_Lives_Forever_2_A_Spy_in_HARMs_Way.php

Based on our research, we determined the franchise’s key elements were: a variety of interesting locales; memorable events, such as falling out of an airplane or being aboard a sinking cargo freighter; humorous conversations, documents, and characterizations; and an intriguing story told through cutscenes and in-game encounters.

The franchise’s flaws included a lack of visual polish; frustrating stealth elements; overly long, tedious cutscenes; and the inclusion of superfluous weapons and gadgets.

Cinematics were another major consideration for the sequel. On NOLF, I implemented the cutscenes very late in the project. By the time I realized how long and tedious some of them were, it was far too late to do much about it. Also, the sheer number of cutscenes in the game limited the amount of time I could spend on each, which adversely affected the overall quality of the presentation.

By contrast, I finished the NOLF 2 cinematic script very early in the project. Once it was approved, we scheduled motion capture and placeholder voice sessions, which allowed me to implement first-pass cinematics that we could review for pacing, clarity, and continuity. Gradually, we began to finalize sets, animations, voice work, and pacing. Scott Albaugh, our primary character artist and animator, added the final polish with detailed facial animations and hair and finger movement. These touches really brought the cutscenes to life.

In retrospect, the conciseness of NOLF 2’s cutscenes may have overcompensated somewhat for the tedium of the original’s. Compounding the issue, I chose to tell a different type of story on this project in an effort to avoid stagnation, which alienated some fans wanting a narrative more in tune with NOLF’s but appealed to others who wanted something new. Ultimately, this conflict illustrates one of the perils of creating a sequel. You have to evolve the franchise enough to keep it fresh, but not so much that you transform it entirely. It’s a difficult balance to strike.

Our goal was to have a solid plan by the end of preproduction that we would then execute during production and refine during alpha. In retrospect, we should have completed a rough draft of the game sooner in order to identify weak links and pacing issues while there was still plenty of time to address them. As it was, we ended up making some drastic adjustments very late in the project.

For instance, we removed the entire exfiltration from Japan, which proved not to be as exciting as we hoped. In another case, we added an action-oriented level to break up a long section of slower-paced gameplay. These changes inarguably improved the game, but they should have been made earlier in the process.

Also, while the game was decidedly more systemic than its predecessor, we still spent a lot of time tracking down individual items that could have been systematized. These cases usually involved components that couldn’t easily be converted to prefabs. The windows in the main records building of the Siberian outpost were especially problematic, because they were all different sizes and shapes. If we wanted to change the amount of damage they could sustain before shattering or the radius of the resulting disturbance, we had to modify each one manually.


Finally, while play-testing helped balance and tune the game, it should have happened sooner. Thanks to observing playtesters, we made some crucial refinements to the stealth system and the opening missions, but we didn’t have sufficient time to play-test the entire game. Play-testing also revealed some design flaws that couldn’t be addressed without jeopardizing our ship date.
While none of these issues was especially grave, they underscored the need to start play-testing as early as possible.

He doesn't mention it directly, but I assume he's talking about the terrible enemy respawns there (which weren't a problem at all in the Japan tutorial levels but apparently plague the rest of the game). :M
 

Darth Roxor

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the terrible enemy respawns there (which weren't a problem at all in the Japan tutorial levels but apparently plague the rest of the game).

each time i see this i get an aneurysm and you're particularly aneurysm-provoking so i'll just address this for the 1000th time

iirc there are only 3 levels in the entire game that have respawns - japan, siberia and harm's underwater base

out of these 3, only in siberia are they excessive and can be a pain in the ass

that is all

now fuck off
 

Roguey

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In that case, if I can get a save loading again, I'll suffer through the crashes some more considering I quit right after finishing the outpost. :M
 

Roguey

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All right, I'm walking back NOLF 2 being garbage. Aside from the Siberian outpost, the ninja combat crawl, protecting the Scot followed by a pointless time-wasting rail shooter, backtracking for buckets of water, and playing whac-a-mole with a mime were all extremely annoying, but other than that it's all right. Consider it upgraded to mediocre. Should have play tested those levels earlier, then perhaps they could have had something. :M
 

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