Is this YouTuber full of shit? (Health regen)

[Ezekiel]

He says health regen has good balance and "a rip-roaring sense of forward momentum." I don't see how. Since you have infinite health, you receive more damage and are constantly forced to wait for the ugly jam to fade from your screen or the screen to stop being black and white. Someone showed me this because I complained about Vanquish having health regen.

 

[Zenith]

Is this a YES!-harvesting thread? October's over.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

He makes his point about nuDOOM in particular quite well. The way low health makes you more fast and aggressive because the health regen in that game is from the melee kills.

Normally health regen is as you described though. Having to stop and wait for a timer to refill your health.

 

[oneself]

He is making the argument that without health regen it can break the game flow. It is not a unsound argument.

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen, since players are likely to have more appetite for risk when health is high, and risk adverse when health pool runs low. Having regen assumes a player enter a fight topped up always, which streamlines perspective and helps to achieve the combat flow that the dev wants the players to experience.

I see it as an extension of one hit model but without one actually dying in one hit.

 

[Ezekiel]

He makes his point about nuDOOM in particular quite well. The way low health makes you more fast and aggressive because the health regen in that game is from the melee kills.

Normally health regen is as you described though. Having to stop and wait for a timer to refill your health.

Yeah, I don't have any real issue with anything he said about other health systems. Someone just snipped the part about health regen for me. Vanquish is a such a paradox of a game. It wants to be fast-paced, and using cover is apparently discouraged, but it has health regen and chest high walls everywhere.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

I think it's pretty terrible in general. It negates any kind of thought about weighing up the threat level and kills tension.

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen,

This makes no sense. A healthpack system gives complete control over the player pace. Health regen makes them just have to hide for a few seconds whenever they happen to have been hurt

 

[oneself]

This makes no sense. A healthpack system gives complete control over the player pace. Health regen makes them just have to hide for a few seconds whenever they happen to have been hurt

The dev wants you to play carefully and tactically all the time. Having a health pool might mean you play tactically only when you are low, and guns blazing when you are topped up.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Health pack system makes you careful always as you don't know when you'll get another. Playing risky, even at full health can mean taking that 1 extra bullet that means you don't complete level/reach next health pack

Regen system has no such concern. Infinite health

 

[oneself]

Health pack system makes you careful always as you don't know when you'll get another. Playing risky, even at full health can mean taking that 1 extra bullet that means you don't complete level/reach next health pack

Regen system has no such concern. Infinite health

What if they don't want you to play carefully? Such as in the case of new Doom.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

That's different then, but still I don't necesssarily think health regen is the best fit. Maybe a happy medium would be a system of collectible health packs you use at your leisure, meaning you still have to weigh the consequences of your playstyle, but can go crazy at times of plenty.

I'd refer back to here though

The dev wants you to play carefully and tactically all the time.

I guess we just see this very differently

 

[oneself]

That's different then, but still I don't necesssarily think health regen is the best fit. Maybe a happy medium would be a system of collectible health packs you use at your leisure, meaning you still have to weigh the consequences of your playstyle, but can go crazy at times of plenty.

Or just have health regen.

I'd refer back to here though

The dev wants you to play carefully and tactically all the time.

I guess we just see this very differently

It is all the same until its different huh?

That is an example, which can work both ways. If I give you a specific amount of health and regen and design all my encounters to take that into account, you will have and be forced to play the game I want you to play. Either fast or slow. That is called dictating pace, and remove the possibility of outlier situations where player has too much health or too little health where it would warp design intentions.

 

[Ash]

My thoughts: awful in singleplayer across the board, good in multiplayer (depending on the game).

Health regen (in its typical form) in singleplayer is pure shit almost across the board. Health is a complete non-issue. There is no war of attrition from battle to battle. Health loss in fight A has no impact on fight B as it does with limited health packs, and designers using the health pack model can dictate how much health you must perform with per fight. e.g boss arena has 4 medpacks. You have to beat said boss with those 4, no exceptions. Regen health essentially gives you unlimited portable automatic health packs. It's not good.

Health regen in multiplayer on the other hand can be good, purely to keep the player in the fast paced action without having to retreat to a medkit spawn being camped by the rest of the team. Every engagement 1v1 is generally equally matched (player skill aside). With regen health, you can defeat foe 1, get your health back, and be ready to take on the second douchebag on an even level. This is where regen has its place.

 

[FeelTheRads]

He is making the argument that without health regen it can break the game flow.

All games without health regen had broken game flow, but now with modern game developers hailing from prestigious game design schools this was fixed. Got it.

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen

Exactly. Why let the player play the game, which means difficult stuff like actually doing some design when you can just pretty much control what every player does with the 2 or 3 dials like health regen and level scaling.

The dev wants you to play carefully and tactically all the time.

"The dev" wants you experience his cinematic experience without being bothered by such things as playing the game. That's all there is to health regen.

That is called dictating pace, and remove the possibility of outlier situations where player has too much health or too little health where it would warp design intentions.

And you think this is a good thing, right? The game developer controlling every step you take? Well, you are a moron then. But at least you can be happy that the new interactive movies pretending to be games are especially designed for you.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I don't know about FPSes as I don't play them, but with RPGs its more that health regen devalues all the other options you have to regain health. It simplifies a system which doesn't need simplifying that reduces the amount of complexity you can have in a game.

In a good RPG you have lots of health options: Potions, character spells or abilities, NPC spells or abilities, resting, items or skills of regeneration.

By allowing people to regen you invalidate all the above to lesser use, thereby encouraging their removal. Thereby reducing the variety of roles that are interesting to play. You also make it harder to construct a situation where a player has to go several encounters without access to non-consumable 'free' health regen, making the game feel less challenging, even if its not. Theoretically, it doesn't make much of a difference, as even in those good RPGs a good player will still figure it out so that they are rarely troubled by health between encounters, but its the sense of player choice/control over it that is removed by having it automatically regen. The game feels more involved if you're consciously making decisions about something rather than having it automated for you. Avernum has an interesting middleground where there is natural regen, but it's so slow that playing to that would be way too boring for most people to endure, thereby keeping the other options still relevant while never making you feel like you shouldn't press on a bit longer and see if you can do the next encounter without the health being 100%. Getting to the exit of a dungeon with everyone on 1-5hp and all your health items/abilities all used up is a genuinely unique and exciting situation in a game, you would never be able to have that particular sensation in a game with quickly regenerating health as the norm.

 

[Tehdagah]

Auto health regen is the only choice in games filled with hitscan enemies.

 

[oneself]

He is making the argument that without health regen it can break the game flow.

All games without health regen had broken game flow, but now with modern game developers hailing from prestigious game design schools this was fixed. Got it.

Sure did. See how easy you win an argument by not giving in to sarcasm

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen

Exactly. Why let the player play the game, which means difficult stuff like actually doing some design when you can just pretty much control what every player does with the 2 or 3 dials like health regen and level scaling.

Irrelevant. I never made any sort of value of judgement on the implemented system.

The dev wants you to play carefully and tactically all the time.

"The dev" wants you experience his cinematic experience without being bothered by such things as playing the game. That's all there is to health regen.

Irrelevant. I never made any judgement on whether the system is good or bad. I only said it helps to fulfill design intention.

That is called dictating pace, and remove the possibility of outlier situations where player has too much health or too little health where it would warp design intentions.

And you think this is a good thing, right? The game developer controlling every step you take? Well, you are a moron then. But at least you can be happy that the new interactive movies pretending to be games are especially designed for you.

Strawman, as I never said anything about it being good or bad.

 

[tmux]

How do you tell if a Youtuber is saying something stupid? His lips are moving.

 

[Bocian]

How do you tell if a Youtuber is saying something stupid? His lips are moving.

What is it - a hundred of youtubers at the bottom of the sea?
A good beginning.

 

[Helton]

oneself
What a retarded little weasel. Are you here to make any kind of statement/point or just to be contrarian and dance around like a fool?

 

[oneself]

oneself
What a retarded little weasel. Are you here to make any kind of statement/point or just to be contrarian and dance around like a fool?

I did if you knew how to read. Do you know how to read?

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Well, he's telling the truth. With regenerating health you actually have almost infinite health, so you go full reckless against your enemies. When getting hurt, the player tends to reach that point of health that is the limit between life and death in the game before hiding to get the health fully restored.

Honestly, the video holds strong points about what has been lost and what was won with the regenerating health systems. I don't get the point of defenestrate it just because that phrase.

 

[Mark Richard]

Someone showed me this because I complained about Vanquish having health regen.

Tell them to watch it themselves. The video does not prefer one health system over another, but focuses on what each game is trying to achieve - what pace or playstyle they're trying to set. Vanquish has a preferred and entertaining playstyle in mind, envisioning the player zipping along at breakneck speed and performing daring acrobatic feats of destruction. Crouching behind a wall while waiting for health to regenerate is the antithesis of that. It becomes too alluring to play in an unsatisfying way and remain in cover.

 

[anvi]

Boring topic, and he is far too posh to be talking about fun things. He should get back to playing croquet with Prince William.

 

[vonAchdorf]

You can also dictate player pace by giving health regen, since players are likely to have more appetite for risk when health is high, and risk adverse when health pool runs low.

Is nuDoom's system then a successful countermeasure which forces you to take risks (melee) when you are at low health?

 

[anvi]

Big deal. In my day we had to sit and bandage our virtual wounds.