There are people so consumed by hatred of JRPGs that they fail to appreciate FF VI

[Ash]

5 has better gameplay overall by a small margin, but everything else is more fully realised in 6. They're both pretty cool. 4 on the other hand is the true overrated yawn-fest. As linear and basic as it gets regarding gameplay.

 

[Damned Registrations]

. JRPG's don't let you pickpocket from NPC's, they let you steal from enemies which is basically a convoluted loot drop. Spells and items to avoid combat? Like what? Stealth and invisibility spells are virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Star Ocean 2 did the whole pickpocket from NPC's thing, and it impacted party relationships and didn't end the game when you failed. And I could name a dozen jrpgs with spells or items that help avoid combat. For starters, every FF game from 4 onwards, Breath of Fire, Tales Series, Star Ocean series, Dragon Quest series...

Spells that alter the battlefield like Grease and Web? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

I mean, yeah, because you're looking at games without battlefields to alter. Those spells are are virtually non-existent in western blobbers as well. Then again, there's BoF5, where not only can you use spells to lay traps on the battlefield and move enemies into them, you can use items outside of it as well, which can even carry on into the battle, like bait or bombs. Where's all the monster bait in my infinity engine games?

Spells that summon creatures and temporary equipment? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Summoning spells have been pretty popular for a long time as well. FF5 even did the whole catch and release monsters thing before pokemon did. SaGa frontier has a spell that summons a lightsaber, which is actually an interesting spell because besides being a kickass weapon, it also raises all your stats a bit and gives you a free defensive sword skill, so it's useful even for pure casters. Pretty sure some other SaGa games had item spells too.

Illusion spells such as Mirror Image, Invisibility and Simulacrum? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Simulacrum isn't even an illusion spell btw, it's necromancy, it makes a clone. A cheap clone, but still a very real clone. As for Invis or mirror image, FF series had mirror image way back in the first game. I forget when they added invis, but they've both been fairly common spells.

Long-term status effects like level draining and petrification? Virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

This is a joke right? Pretty much every jrpg ever makes poison a long term status effect, and most have petrification as well, not to mention paralysis, shrinking, polymorph, and death. Oh, and being turned into a zombie.

Status-inflicting abilities that are actually reliable and a viable alternative to dealing damage? Not entirely non-existent, but very rare in JRPG's.

Actually quite common, but people generally prefer grinding to experimentation. Most speedruns wouldn't be possible without cheesing basically every boss and enemy with status ailments.


Lets do this the other way around:

Where are the western games with spells that can be combined with eachother into entirely new spells with new effects neither spell had?

Where are the western games with spells that can modified into contingencies, counter attacks, or passive defenses through the use of equipment?

Where are the western games with long term character transformations that last until the character is defeated in combat, granting new abilities?

Where are the western games with spells that have a varied effect based on who is in your party at the time?

Where are the western games with spells that target enemies based on meta information like level, turn order, or absolute terrain height?

Where are the western games with spells that trigger a special effect if the caster was killed before finishing the cast?

Where are the western games that allow you to learn new spells or skills in the middle of combat by random inspiration?

Where are the western games with restricted spells, that can only be used by party members when they've been injured or after scoring a kill or the like?

Where are the western games with spells that reflect magic not simply at the caster, but rather in a logical geometric fashion based on relative positions on the battlefield?

Where are the western games with suicide spells, that cost the life of the caster?

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

whereisyourmom.com

 

[DragoFireheart]

Final Fantasy 6 was the last good Final Fantasy game except maybe a spin off like FFT.

FF7 was the beginning of the decline.

. JRPG's don't let you pickpocket from NPC's, they let you steal from enemies which is basically a convoluted loot drop. Spells and items to avoid combat? Like what? Stealth and invisibility spells are virtually non-existent in JRPG's.

Star Ocean 2 did the whole pickpocket from NPC's thing, and it impacted party relationships and didn't end the game when you failed. And I could name a dozen jrpgs with spells or items that help avoid combat. For starters, every FF game from 4 onwards, Breath of Fire, Tales Series, Star Ocean series, Dragon Quest series...

Good thing you didn't mention Fallout 1 because you HAVE to encounter the rats right outside the vault!

 

[Cross]

Star Ocean 2 did the whole pickpocket from NPC's thing, and it impacted party relationships and didn't end the game when you failed.

So pickpocketing with no failure state, which affects absolutely nothing except what ending slide party members get despite this being completely nonsensical (why would the fate of characters be determined by some petty theft and not all the crazy things you do during the game?) and is only used as source of loot and not as an alternate way to solve quests.
Yeah, great implementation of choice & consequence. I think I'd rather take NPC's becoming hostile, primitive as it is. Even the Elder Scrolls games offer the option of paying a fine or going to jail.

I mean, yeah, because you're looking at games without battlefields to alter.

So why don't games like Final Fantasy Tactics have those spells then? Dragon Quarter is the only example I can think of and even that has battles take place in some abstract combat arena separate from the environment you explore.

Summoning spells have been pretty popular for a long time as well. FF5 even did the whole catch and release monsters thing before pokemon did. SaGa frontier has a spell that summons a lightsaber, which is actually an interesting spell because besides being a kickass weapon, it also raises all your stats a bit and gives you a free defensive sword skill, so it's useful even for pure casters. Pretty sure some other SaGa games had item spells too.

So let me get this straight: despite the fact that JRPG's outnumber cRPG's by a factor of probably a 100:1, you could only come up with two examples, both of which aren't even real summoning spells, since they function like one-off damage spells or a temporary buff. Was this really your argument or is this some elaborate trolling?

Simulacrum isn't even an illusion spell btw, it's necromancy, it makes a clone. A cheap clone, but still a very real clone. As for Invis or mirror image, FF series had mirror image way back in the first game. I forget when they added invis, but they've both been fairly common spells.

Early FF games had some simplified form of Mirror Image because back then, they still took some inspiration from D&D. And anyway, you didn't address the bulk of my argument: anything that plays with visibility or line-of-sight is almost completely non-existent in JRPG's.

and most have petrification as well

Does it remove you from the party and turn you in a immovable and breakable statue like it does in the Infinity Engine games? Otherwise it's not a long-term status effect.

not to mention paralysis, shrinking, polymorph, and death. Oh, and being turned into a zombie.

In most JRPG's these effects wear off after battle.

Actually quite common, but people generally prefer grinding to experimentation.

What grinding? Status effects tend to be useless in JRPG's because unlike cRPG's, dealing damage in JRPG's is almost completely deterministic. Damaging attacks almost never miss and they don't roll for damage. Inflicting status elements on the other hand is still subject to chance. This means that in the vast majority of cases dealing damage will always be the superior option, especially against bosses which tend to be immune against most every status effect.

Lets do this the other way around:

Where are the western games with spells that can be combined with eachother into entirely new spells with new effects neither spell had?

But we're not talking about meta-aspects like number cruncing or navigating skill trees. We're talking about mechanics that actually change moment-to-moment gameplay. The fact that you couldn't even come up with any convincing counter-examples speaks volumes. I'm not even saying JRPG's are necessarily a bad genre, I'm simply saying their mechanics tend to be very streamlined, deliberately so. I have no idea why you'd be in denial about something so obvious.

 

[Machocruz]

Final Fantasy VI is the perfect example of a JRPG thriving on personality and presentation. Be honest, you all remember it for things like characters, their adventure, plot points, the enemy art, color, the music, not combat. Maybe a few encounters were memorable, but because of the writing/dialogue not battle mechanics. You could reduce encounter rate by at least 50% and it wouldn't be any lesser for it, probably be even more enjoyable.

 

[Cross]

Final Fantasy 6 was the last good Final Fantasy game except maybe a spin off like FFT.

FF7 was the beginning of the decline.

What decline? FF7 has the same combat system as FF6, the same approach to storytelling (primarily through non-interactive cutscenes), the same approach to world building (an anachronistic mix of fantasy and science fiction), the same tone and style of dialogue and method of story delivery, the same visual style (disproportionate character models against 2D backgrounds), the same music composer, the same approach to sound design (e.g. no voice acting), the same amount of linearity (for most of the game), the same interface and UI elements even.

We're not even talking about a situation like Kotor 1>Kotor 2 where it's a same-engine sequel, but with a stark tonal shift as a result of a change in developers. FF6 and FF7 are extremely similar. You pretty much have to be a nostalgia hipster to hold up FF6 as the 'last good Final Fantasy game' while claiming FF7 is 'the beginning of the decline' (and this is coming from someone who didn't think much of either game).

 

[Sigourn]

There are no good JRPGs. There are, however, good Japanese RPGs.

- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Final Fantasy XII (I don't consider this to be a JRPG)
- Vagrant Story
- King's Field & others
- Dark Souls & others
- Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
- Wizardry clones

Amongst others. You have to have the mentality of a child to enjoy JRPGs.

 

[Damned Registrations]

So why don't games like Final Fantasy Tactics have those spells then?

Probably because those spells are shit, offer little in the way of interesting gameplay, and only get included in games for the nostaliga factor for DnD.

I'm not even going to reply to the rest of your post, since you basically just keep making shit up about games you apparently don't know shit about, like Star Ocean 2's pickpocketing or basically the entire FF franchise. You want to talk about 'simplified' spells, baldur's gate had a mirror image that protected you from fucking (multiple!) fireballs.

 

[Ash]

Final Fantasy 6 was the last good Final Fantasy game except maybe a spin off like FFT.

FF7 was the beginning of the decline.

What decline? FF7 has the same combat system as FF6, the same approach to storytelling (primarily through non-interactive cutscenes), the same approach to world building (an anachronistic mix of fantasy and science fiction), the same tone and style of dialogue and method of story delivery, the same visual style (disproportionate character models against 2D backgrounds), the same music composer, the same approach to sound design (e.g. no voice acting), the same amount of linearity (for most of the game), the same interface and UI elements even.

We're not even talking about a situation like Kotor 1>Kotor 2 where it's a same-engine sequel, but with a stark tonal shift as a result of a change in developers. FF6 and FF7 are extremely similar. You pretty much have to be a nostalgia hipster to hold up FF6 as the 'last good Final Fantasy game' while claiming FF7 is 'the beginning of the decline' (and this is coming from someone who didn't think much of either game).

He's being a hipster because FF7 is uber popular. To be fair there is some legitimate decline in that combat pace slowed down somewhat. Summons took a ridiculous amount of time to go through their flashy animations that you should probably just ignore they exist, for instance. But summons aside attacking, magic etc weren't much different in length, so not all bad. There's also that piece of shit chocobo minigame. These two things are somewhat minor and totally optional though, so not much a problem.
Oh, the game is also probably easier than even FF6, which itself was easier than FF5.
Thankfully there's mods for that.

Final Fantasy VI is the perfect example of a JRPG thriving on personality and presentation. Be honest, you all remember it for things like characters, their adventure, plot points, the enemy art, color, the music, not combat. Maybe a few encounters were memorable, but because of the writing/dialogue not battle mechanics. You could reduce encounter rate by at least 50% and it wouldn't be any lesser for it, probably be even more enjoyable.

It would be less challenging, and that would be bad. It's not a particularly difficult game at all but you don't want it to be mindless. From save point to save point you suffer a battle of attrition with the random encounters, getting your MP and healing drained, and it ends with a boss. There is strategy there in knowing the status ailments and general attack patterns of the enemies in the area, ensuring you're optimally equipped etc. And there is wonder and excitement in what new cool magic you'll get next, and what equipment to be later used in combat you'll find when exploring against the encounter rate, and so on. The gameplay as far as early JRPGs go is pretty decent and in-depth, and that includes the combat. While it's far from amazing there's far worse JRPGs regarding gameplay e.g FF4, Chrono Trigger, Breath of Fire.
It's really not that great, but I'd rather that than a lot of the mindless garbage you get with so many modern games.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Final Fantasy VI is the perfect example of a JRPG thriving on personality and presentation. Be honest, you all remember it for things like characters, their adventure, plot points, the enemy art, color, the music, not combat. Maybe a few encounters were memorable, but because of the writing/dialogue not battle mechanics. You could reduce encounter rate by at least 50% and it wouldn't be any lesser for it, probably be even more enjoyable.

The JRPG subgenre, as distinct from the much larger category of Japanese-made RPGs, is defined by a reduction in the complexity of game mechanics in favor of an emphasis on story-telling through narration, graphics, and music. Thus, when you say that people praise Final Fantasy VI for its characters, plot, graphics, and music, you're highlighting that it's strong in all the elements on which JRPGs focus, which is high praise indeed. The Codex's #1-voted CRPG-of-all-time, Planescape: Torment, is similar in that combat and exploration are simplified in favor of narrative, including a main quest focused around the protagonist and his backstory as well as various companions with their own stories and relationships with the protagonist; though it differs from the norm of JRPGs in being more dialogue-intensive, with a massive amount of text, and less interested in employing graphics or music to serve the story. Both FF VI and Planescape: Torment are examples of games where the artistic aspects transcend the relatively limited gameplay.

 

[Ash]

The JRPG subgenre, as distinct from the much larger category of Japanese-made RPGs

According to whom? JRPGs (Japanese Role-Playing Games) are a sub-genre of JRPGs (Japanese Role-Playing Games)? How does that make any sense at all? It always just came across to me as a classification made up by people who played JRPGs back in say the late 80s-very early 90s when they were predominantly cutesy and simplistic (and arguably collectively inferior to WRPG) and that's all they knew and despised, and wanted to cling on to that understanding of the JRPG even when it was pointed out to them that the genre has in fact branched out and evolved. Anything that's actually more to their taste, like say Dark Souls? "Oh no, that's a prestigious WRPG made by Japanese devs, despite having very Japanese-leaning game design. Gotta claim stakes on that one."
It would be like the JRPG fan only playing Ultima and Wizardry + "clones" and assuming that's exclusively what the WRPG is. Or creating a sub-genre of WRPG called "WRPG" out of it in that limited understanding. It's nonsensical. At least get a better sub-genre label for those early games rather than one that is identical to the parent genre.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

According to whom? JRPGs (Japanese Role-Playing Games) are a sub-genre of JRPGs (Japanese Role-Playing Games)? How does that make any sense at all? It always just came across to me as a classification made up by people who played JRPGs back in say the late 80s-very early 90s when they were predominantly cutesy and simplistic (and arguably collectively inferior to WRPG) and that's all they knew and despised, and wanted to cling on to that understanding of the JRPG even when it was pointed out to them that the genre has in fact branched out and evolved. Anything that's actually more to their taste, like say Dark Souls? "Oh no, that's a prestigious WRPG made by Japanese devs, despite having very Japanese-leaning game design. Gotta claim stakes on that one."
It would be like the JRPG fan only playing Ultima and Wizardry + "clones" and assuming that's exclusively what the WRPG is. Or creating a sub-genre of WRPG called "WRPG" out of it in that limited understanding. It's nonsensical. At least get a better sub-genre label for those early games rather than one that is identical to the parent genre.

Unless you're prepared to travel back in time about a quarter-century and prevent the term "Japanese RPG" from being applied to a specific subgenre of RPGs, one which excludes the multitude of Wizardry-likes developed in Japan as well as From Software's King's Field and derivatives and also many other games with varied mechanics and focus, then we're unfortunately stuck with the term JRPG confusingly referring to a subgenre rather than meaning Japanese(-developed) RPGs.

Note that, strictly speaking, JRPGs are not a subset of Japanese-developed RPGs, since it's possible for Westerners to create games that fit into the JRPG subgenre, just as the Japanese develop many RPGs that do not fall into the JRPG subgenre.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Unless you're prepared to travel back in time about a quarter-century and prevent the term "Japanese RPG" from being applied to a specific subgenre of RPGs

But we no longer call all FPS games "Doom-clones" and the application of the term "hack'n'slash" often confuses fandoms of very different games like Devil May Cry (alternatively called "stylish action") and Diablo (alt. "action RPG", which sparks more questions because googling action RPG summons The Witcher 3). Will this decade be defined by having every difficult game belong to the specific subgenre that is "Dark Souls"?

I don't think any of this semantic discussion follows the spirit of the thread; incidentally, nor do I agree with your assertion that "The JRPG subgenre (...) is defined by a reduction in the complexity of game mechanics in favor of an emphasis on story-telling through narration, graphics, and music".

 

[SCO]

Good narrative interactivity with systems takes work, devs avoid doing work, two different traditions of avoiding doing work (making the absolute minimum and make every failure state of your narrative affecting minigame devolve to combat, or stuff all your systems on combat and come up with something highly abstract), which is better and why?

For a simple example of what i call 'good', there is the 'bullying' minigame on Gothic where you can engage on non-lethal fistcuff combat nearly everywhere and loot people (or be looted), but not enough to get everyone perm-hostile.

 

[Kruno]

FF3 is heavily overrated, but I do like the cast. FF5 is by far the best FF game, followed by FF4, and then FF7.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Good narrative interactivity with systems takes work, devs avoid doing work

And for good reason. Spend too much time working on that stuff and you end up with Choice of Dragon. Fun for the novelty, but doesn't exactly land you in the hall of fame.

 

[Cross]

Final Fantasy VI is the perfect example of a JRPG thriving on personality and presentation. Be honest, you all remember it for things like characters, their adventure, plot points, the enemy art, color, the music, not combat. Maybe a few encounters were memorable, but because of the writing/dialogue not battle mechanics. You could reduce encounter rate by at least 50% and it wouldn't be any lesser for it, probably be even more enjoyable.

The JRPG subgenre, as distinct from the much larger category of Japanese-made RPGs, is defined by a reduction in the complexity of game mechanics in favor of an emphasis on story-telling through narration, graphics, and music. Thus, when you say that people praise Final Fantasy VI for its characters, plot, graphics, and music, you're highlighting that it's strong in all the elements on which JRPGs focus, which is high praise indeed. The Codex's #1-voted CRPG-of-all-time, Planescape: Torment, is similar in that combat and exploration are simplified in favor of narrative, including a main quest focused around the protagonist and his backstory as well as various companions with their own stories and relationships with the protagonist; though it differs from the norm of JRPGs in being more dialogue-intensive, with a massive amount of text, and less interested in employing graphics or music to serve the story. Both FF VI and Planescape: Torment are examples of games where the artistic aspects transcend the relatively limited gameplay.

The idea that Final Fantasy VI and Planescape: Torment share a similar design ethos is so bizarre that I'm starting to wonder whether you even played either game. Let's compare what playing the two games is actually like.

Planescape: Torment starts with character creation, a brief conversation with Morte (which is completely optional with the unfinished business mod that restores the original conversation) and that's it. The player is then free to explore the Mortuary at their leisure or beeline to the exit, which takes all of two minutes, after which they can access all of the Hive (including the Buried Village and the catacombs), which makes up the largest portion of the game. What's more, unlike many JRPG's and modern triple-A games, none of the game mechanics are artificiially gated. Nothing stops from you doing side quests, switching classes, learning spells, robbing stores, pickpocketing NPC's and whatnot. You can even uncover and resolve Dakkon's crisis of faith as soon as you meet him.

Final Fantasy VI starts with several non-interactive cutscenes, followed by a combat area that is a straight corridor (the hostile town of Narshe and the mines) concluding with a boss battle, followed by another non-interactive scene, followed by another combat area that is a straight corridor (Terra's escape through the mines) concluding with another boss battle, followed by a party member joining you. You are then allowed to explore a town, which is tiny and which is mostly filled with tutorial NPC's. The player can then explore the world map...which is shaped like a corridor and only allows access to one location, Figaro Castle. There is a small amount of NPC's to talk to, but the main attraction of this location is the large amount of non-interactive cutscenes you get to watch, followed by another party member joining you and concluding with, you guessed it, another boss battle. The next stretch of the game is in the same vein: a combat area that is a straight corridor (no boss, shockingly enough), followed by a small town with a few nondescript NPC's, followed by a combat area that is a straight corridor concluding with a boss battle, after which a new party member joins you.

Noticing a pattern here? Not only is the game completely on rails, but entire game mechanics are locked away until you progress far enough into the game, such as the Esper system that allows characters to learn magic.

No, I'm not saying Planescape: Torment is a super hardcore experience, it's probably an easier game than Final Fantasy VI. But its game structure has virtually nothing in common with JRPG's, and shares a lot more with other cRPG's.

 

[Delterius]

The JRPG subgenre, as distinct from the much larger category of Japanese-made RPGs, is defined by a reduction in the complexity of game mechanics in favor of an emphasis on story-telling through narration, graphics, and music. Thus, when you say that people praise Final Fantasy VI for its characters, plot, graphics, and music, you're highlighting that it's strong in all the elements on which JRPGs focus, which is high praise indeed.

The 'JRPG' isn't Final Fantasy. There's a ton of 'tactical' RPGs, action RPGs and blobbers made with the very same aesthetics as the ones you just praised. They, like RPGs made elsewhere, vary in complexity and form. But are made in Japan, therefore JRPG. Likewise, a 'reduction in complexity in favor of story-telling' applies to another ton of 'CRPGs'. Including ancient progenitors of the genre.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So pickpocketing with no failure state

I don't even bother with pickpocketing otherwise.

 

[Hyperion]

But its game structure has virtually nothing in common with JRPG's, and shares a lot more with other cRPG's.

Ok.

 

[Cross]

But its game structure has virtually nothing in common with JRPG's, and shares a lot more with other cRPG's.

Ok.

I wasn't even referring to open-endedness with that sentence, but even when it comes to that, your counter-example is highly dishonest. The first Dragon Quest was heavily inspired by the Ultima games, and as a result is a lot more open-ended than other JRPG's. But starting with the second game, the series started to become far more linear. Your counter-example is an exception that proves the rule.

What I was referring to is typical cRPG tropes like the player spending a lot of time in quest hubs doing side jobs. It's a pretty major part of 90's-era cRPG's like the Fallouts, the Baldur's Gate series and Planescape: Torment, but is mostly absent from JRPG's.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Final Fantasy VI is the perfect example of a JRPG thriving on personality and presentation. Be honest, you all remember it for things like characters, their adventure, plot points, the enemy art, color, the music, not combat. Maybe a few encounters were memorable, but because of the writing/dialogue not battle mechanics. You could reduce encounter rate by at least 50% and it wouldn't be any lesser for it, probably be even more enjoyable.

The JRPG subgenre, as distinct from the much larger category of Japanese-made RPGs, is defined by a reduction in the complexity of game mechanics in favor of an emphasis on story-telling through narration, graphics, and music. Thus, when you say that people praise Final Fantasy VI for its characters, plot, graphics, and music, you're highlighting that it's strong in all the elements on which JRPGs focus, which is high praise indeed. The Codex's #1-voted CRPG-of-all-time, Planescape: Torment, is similar in that combat and exploration are simplified in favor of narrative, including a main quest focused around the protagonist and his backstory as well as various companions with their own stories and relationships with the protagonist; though it differs from the norm of JRPGs in being more dialogue-intensive, with a massive amount of text, and less interested in employing graphics or music to serve the story. Both FF VI and Planescape: Torment are examples of games where the artistic aspects transcend the relatively limited gameplay.

The idea that Final Fantasy VI and Planescape: Torment share a similar design ethos is so bizarre that I'm starting to wonder whether you even played either game. Let's compare what playing the two games is actually like.
...
No, I'm not saying Planescape: Torment is a super hardcore experience, it's probably an easier game than Final Fantasy VI. But its game structure has virtually nothing in common with JRPG's, and shares a lot more with other cRPG's.

"Design ethos"..."game structure". Well, yes, if you ignore the game elements that were cited by me (or by Machocruz earlier) and instead focus solely on plot/quest structure (which seems to be what you mean by "game structure"), then Planescape: Torment appears dissimilar to JRPGs. On the other hand, if you had bothered to ponder the simplification and de-emphasis of combat and exploration --- two of the three main components of the RPG genre --- in Planescape: Torment and the relative importance it places of backstory, dialogue, and characterization, then you might realize that the game has a very different relationship with JRPGs from what you're assuming. To refer back to Machocruz's list, we remember Planescape: Torment for characters, their adventure, plot points, art, color, the music, written descriptions and dialogue, not combat or exploration. Planescape: Torment takes a literary approach to being art rather than the theatrical/operatic approach of FF VI and other JRPGs, but is otherwise quite similar.

The 'JRPG' isn't Final Fantasy. There's a ton of 'tactical' RPGs, action RPGs and blobbers made with the very same aesthetics as the ones you just praised. They, like RPGs made elsewhere, vary in complexity and form. But are made in Japan, therefore JRPG. Likewise, a 'reduction in complexity in favor of story-telling' applies to another ton of 'CRPGs'. Including ancient progenitors of the genre.

The original Final Fantasy isn't a JRPG, but FFs IV, VI, VII, VIII, IX, and X are excellent examples of the JRPG subgenre. Unfortunately, there will be never-ending confusion when discussing JRPGs due to the inevitable tendency to interpret the term as meaning Japanese RPGs rather than a specific subgenre of RPGs. If only the latter could be renamed to Phantasy Star-likes or a similar moniker.

 

[Hyperion]

I wasn't even referring to open-endedness with that sentence,

I chose a sentence that summed up the crux of your argument, which was the railroaded nature of FF6's first half versus the open-ended and free structure of PS:T from the very start. I provided an example of what defined JRPG's from their inception. Yes, both JRPG's and CRPG's* alike moved on from what should be the crux of an RPG (adventure and freedom), because videos and graphics sell.

You're given a main quest from the start - save the princess. Talking to townsfolk for tips on what to do, where to go for certain items are your side quests. The difference is, there's no tidy little journal for you to keep your info. Getting the Erdrick gear, leveling up, visiting other towns to buy shit, and raid their houses for items...all side quests, while the main focus stands on the main town and saving the princess. Sounds similar enough to me. I don't see how being influenced by Ultima is really relevant to this situation. It was 1986, there wasn't much else available for them to use as inspiration.

Nothing stops from you doing side quests, switching classes, learning spells

FF3 has some side stuff for you to take care of as soon as you get the first airship, like getting Gau his Rages, or Mog and his dances. Water Rondo is missable and is a huge pain in the ass to acquire. You gotta land your airship on the Veldt, go through the cave, through Serpent's Trench, walk from Nikeah past Doma (which has some treasure for you to grab along the barricades and in the assorted rooms), all the way to Baron Falls, back to the Veldt. There are some semi-hidden Espers to be gotten after Vector blows up from a Thief hiding behind a tree and the Auction House, the hidden Intangirs on Triangle Island. During Sabin's scenario there's Cyan's sidequest (which sets up his World of Ruin quest nicely) to get an extra Tintinabar, which can be very valuable for the Colosseum. If you bring only 3 people on your first journey to Zozo, you gain access to Shadow's first dream as the thief Clyde which will set up the remaining 4 (5?) if you decide to save him on the Floating Continent (hey look, another optional choice). It may be linear for 10 hours or so, but let's not pretend like there aren't distractions to pull you off that road for a little while.

Oh, and switching Espers around to optimally level your characters' stats the way you want, and get them the spells you want them to have without incessantly grinding for every spell is basically choosing your own classes. Even better is if you work to keep your levels down, each stat point matters more. But it doesn't matter, because there's more than 1 town means these games are wholly different animals.

* - Open world CRPG's are almost entirely bullshit nowadays. Free exploration with level scaling kills the entire purpose of exploring. When every area is the same level as you, there's no point in actually exploring, because everything you come acrossis the same as the last, with a different paint job. Quests all become the same with a bit of different flavor text that nobody reads, monsters are mostly the same with different models, and quest rewards are usually level adjusted, which makes them useless and will likely be replaced by the next set of quests. When described in this way, I think I would prefer the railroad adventure to be honest. At least it's true to its nature.

So tired of the WRPG nerds and their insecurities around JRPG's influence and legitimacy.

 

[Absinthe]

The esper system actually detracts from Final Fantasy VI. Once the esper system sets in their stat and spell growth means all your characters are basically warrior mages and whatever distinctive aspects your characters had are buried underneath the esper system. Blitz, Bushido, Edgar's tools, etc. They all stop mattering when you can have them cast Ultima or just attack for extreme damage instead. There's a reason why natural magic games (no espers, no gear that teaches spells) are popular among FF6 players.