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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

Jason Liang

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I think he meant OCD... :M

I have that too?!

:despair:

Yes. it's how Nintendo sold Pokemon to your entire OCD-afflicted generation.

If you played and beat a Pokemon video game, you have OCD.

If you played a Pokemon video game but did not beat it, you have OCD AND ADD.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm about to start my first playthrough of Shadowrun: DMS (I'm completely new to the Shadowrun universe). Are there recommended mods?
I hear you can run the DMS campaign in Shadowun: Dragonfall, is there any point to it?
In my opinion, the game doesn't need to be modded or juked through a different engine. I played all three vanilla and they were fine.
 

Infinitum

Scholar
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So, anyhow, downloaded the caldecott caper and is pleasantly surprised all in all. Most of the runs are on the short side and the setup kind of shoehorns the PC into a street samurai role, but the writing is solid (trigger warnings abound for the usual codex suspects I suppose) and it overall feels very polished and way tighter than its predecessor. Definite download if you get the running itch.
 

almondblight

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Messages
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As for the amount of writing in Hong Kong compared to Dragonfall, I'm not sure that Hong Kong being rushed is the right way to explain it. You should remember that Dragonfall was a DLC, something to be made on the fumes of DMS' budget. Hong Kong was a separately Kickstarted game, a full-scale premium experience. They just weren't looking to be modest.

It's worth looking at what happened with each game. SRR was pretty successful (IIRC, it was the top seller on Steam for a few days), and Dragonfall (well, Berlin) was always planned, starting production right after SRR came out. It's likely that a lot of people were still onboard from SRR, and they were using the same engine (the original Dragonfall was a module for SRR). It's also worth noting that Dragonfall was a game where the scope was iteratively increased - originally it was going to be a fairly short add on campaign, then in response to the wishes of fans (and probably the extra money from SRR sales) it was greatly expanded at the beginning of production. And then the Director's Cut expanded the scope again.

On the other hand, the KS for SRHK was ~4 months after Dragonfall: Directors Cut; it's likely a lot of the team was gone by then (if you look at HBS job offers, they're usually just for a few months until the game is released). We know that, for example, they were looking to hire new content creators prior to the Kickstarter launch for SRHK. We know Mike McCain wasn't even involved in the game when production started. Mitch writes about calling him in to "get his editorial perspective" on the story in March; right before launch he revealed that McCain was the co-director. Unlike Dragonfall, where content was added to a smaller game, the original plan for HK was actually shortened because of time constraints. They were creating an updated engine, with a new matrix, at the same time. And they were making a game that was about the length of Dragonfall: Director's Cut in 6 months, when the total production time for DF: DC was about a year.

It doesn't seem that surprising to me that SRHK suffered. They had more experience and weren't as rushed for the mini-campaign, and that was quite a bit better (though the encounter design was still a lot worse than Dragonfall).
 

Cross

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I only played Dragonfall and I thought the writing ranged from serviceable to Bioware-tier levels of contrived and ham-fisted. Still, it says a lot that even people who liked Dragonfall's narrative seem to heavily dislike Hong Kong's writing. I guess they fell into the usual trap of seeing all the (unearned) praise for the writing and assuming a greater quantity of the thing people liked would automatically be better, regardless of quality control.

t's worth looking at what happened with each game. SRR was pretty successful (IIRC, it was the top seller on Steam for a few days), and Dragonfall (well, Berlin) was always planned, starting production right after SRR came out. It's likely that a lot of people were still onboard from SRR, and they were using the same engine (the original Dragonfall was a module for SRR). It's also worth noting that Dragonfall was a game where the scope was iteratively increased - originally it was going to be a fairly short add on campaign, then in response to the wishes of fans (and probably the extra money from SRR sales) it was greatly expanded at the beginning of production. And then the Director's Cut expanded the scope again.

On the other hand, the KS for SRHK was ~4 months after Dragonfall: Directors Cut; it's likely a lot of the team was gone by then (if you look at HBS job offers, they're usually just for a few months until the game is released).
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/shadowrun-hong-kong/credits

People who have worked on this game have also collaborated on the creation of the following games:

Shadowrun Returns, a group of 45 people
Shadowrun: Dragonfall, a group of 42 people
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut, a group of 37 people
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Shadowrun: Hong Kong doesn't get enough credit for its execution of a character-driven narrative. As a whole, the narrative is from perfect - the story beats of the main plot are delivered in the most uninteresting way. But IMO it excels in using your companions and other characters in that plot in a way that shamefully few other RPGs do. In retrospect, Dragonfall's attempt to tie the companions to your character's story via Monika feels like a hamfisted first attempt at doing what Hong Kong succeeded at with Duncan, Raymond, etc.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Duncan is so very dull. Raymond is a non-entity that may as well be a McGuffin for everyone to fawn over. This part of the story is one of the weakest aspects of HK in general.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Why is that edgy? It's really not. Duncan is one-dimensional to a fault and he's simply boring because of that. Raymond is a glorified carrot-on-a-stick who means nothing to us as players. He's an abstract concept for the majority of the game, some faraway goal that is trying to keep the narrative together. It literally doesn't matter whether it's Raymond or a data disk, or some long lost girl/boyfriend, or whatever else that is immaterial for us.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Raymond is a glorified carrot-on-a-stick who means nothing to us as players.
I don't know, man. Your history with Raymond emerges in early conversations, is forged in part by choices you yourself make in dialogue, further cementing your investment, and then you watch a video tape of him being threatened and kidnapped by a scary guy in a mask. What exactly do you require in a McGuffin to make you "buy into" it?
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Nothing of that matters. The "early history" that emerges can be about anything. This is the lack of "show, don't tell" all over again. We don't see him, we don't interact with him, most of the things we do aren't connected to him at all, etc. We simply don't have a reason to care. Sure, the characters might have, but that's irrelevant to us. Duncan moping around the subject constantly doesn't evoke any meaning for us. I cared more about his partner who died during the prologue than Raymond. Hell, I cared more about Nightjar and we didn't even know his name.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You might not be able to care about Raymond directly, but you are shown enough to care about him by proxy through Duncan. He's an element of your relationship with Duncan.

Of course, if you didn't care for Duncan, then... you're a bad person.
 

Roguey

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Duncan was a perpetually whiny half-faggot and I took much glee in ruining his life at the end of the high level campaign.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
We don't see him, we don't interact with him, most of the things we do aren't connected to him at all, etc. We simply don't have a reason to care.
Unfortunate you feel that way, but abstract reference is a perfectly good way to build up a plot point. One of my favorite novels centers around a character who turns out to have been dead before page 1. Yes, there are many RPGs that do what Dragonfall did, starting you off with the McGuffin at center stage and then taking it away from you, but not all stories have to be like that. Come to think of it, HK's opening was a nice inversion of Dragonfall's in this way.

It sounds like you made the decision to instantly dislike a major NPC and that pretty well soured his whole role in fleshing out your motivation for the entire story. Understandable, but regrettable.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I didn't "instantly dislike a major NPC", who are you even talking about? Duncan? I didn't "instantly dislike him", he got progressively more boring and one-dimensional. Raymond is simply a McGuffin, nothing more. What you are describing can be done if the characters bond over their experience with the McGuffin and struggle together, changing each other in the process, HK has none of that, the only one who cares about Raymond is Duncan and he's dull.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You might not be able to care about Raymond directly, but you are shown enough to care about him by proxy through Duncan. He's an element of your relationship with Duncan.

Of course, if you didn't care for Duncan, then... you're a bad person.
Duncan is disgrace to goblinoids.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
He's got a perfect smile, though. I found it very odd they keep hammering that, it's like they were incredibly proud they thought up a somewhat unused in games physical characteristic.
 

Delterius

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Entre a serra e o mar.
Shadowrun: Hong Kong doesn't get enough credit for its execution of a character-driven narrative. As a whole, the narrative is from perfect - the story beats of the main plot are delivered in the most uninteresting way. But IMO it excels in using your companions and other characters in that plot in a way that shamefully few other RPGs do. In retrospect, Dragonfall's attempt to tie the companions to your character's story via Monika feels like a hamfisted first attempt at doing what Hong Kong succeeded at with Duncan, Raymond, etc.
Actually, I feel like Monica was more of a success in that department. In Dragonfall the PC goes through an arc that actually makes sense within the plot. You don't become the party psychiatrist and big hero for no reason other than you're trying to fill Monica's shoes.

Duncan and Raymond are the odd ones in Hong Kong because they are basically your family. But, IMO, the main game should have focused on them more.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Duncan is perceptually whiny half-fagot... which is actually decently written.

Narrative wise, you are not a shadowrunner. You are pretty much forced into that shit due to people wanting you dead and you supposedly wanting to save Raymond. While not explored much, at several conversation you could express whether you actually like being a shadowrunner. Duncan function as a character who faced the same dilemma and also as some sort of reminder of what life you had before and what you are fighting for now. He relaxed out about the idea being a shadowrunner during the main campaign, but he never actually really like what he has become and he long for his old life. Whether you agree with him or not of course is up to your choice which pretty much determine the ending on the high level/DLC campaign. And it is very good that the player has a choice to basically say "Hey you guys are great and all. We've been through lot shit, but you know this life is not for me."

While not directly related it is also interesting that Gaichu is pretty much similar exploration of the same theme represented by the overall narrative and Duncan. He, like you and Duncan, is a victim of circumstances. Unlike Duncan who don't accept what he has become, Gaichu pretty much do the opposite. He learned, he adapted, and yet still trying to maintain what he was. And the player once again could agree with him or not in form of trying to keep Gaichu on the ghoul with code of honor track or goad him to dive being a savage ghoul.
 

Jason Liang

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A motivated modder *could* fix/ reboot/ remake and expand Hong Kong without too much difficulty, but there are two aspects of Hong Kong which are unfixable.

1) The Ambush system
2) The Matrix system

The ambush system is nice conceptually, but as implemented is horrendously unbalanced. Any fight where you get to ambush your opponents, beginning the fight in cover with all your buffs ativated, is a complete joke. The merits of the Ambush system are that a) it improves the effectiveness of Shamans/ Mages (compare how useful Gobbet was comopared to Dietrich) and b) it theoretically allows for the implementation of "rogue" skills and abilities like planting traps and bombs, pickpocketing, overwatch, etc... but I'm not sure there's a version of this that isn't irreparably unbalanced for the PCs.

As for the implementation of the Matrix, actually this isn't "hardwired" into the SR engine. You can build any implementation of a Matrix as you'd like. The problem is that a) the Hong Kong implementation of the Matrix was a fail for many players (I didn't mind it as much) so it needs to be rethought and b) but redesigning all the Matrix areas would be significant work.

HBS should have revised Hong Kong themselves, but they didn't and it's clear they aren't going to. It would be a relatively simple project to fix most of the worst aspects of Hong Kong:

1) redesign and improve most of the combat encounters
2) cut ~70% of the non-essential NPC dialogue/ nuke the Ork family bar.
3) cut the imbalanced gear

These would be significantly more time consuming goals:
4) completely redesign the Demon City to what it should be
5) restore the intended content
6) redesign and implement an improved Matrix
7) create new content/ expand the scenario, possibly rebalancing the karma progression to make it less ludicrous.
 

almondblight

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http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/shadowrun-hong-kong/credits

People who have worked on this game have also collaborated on the creation of the following games:

Shadowrun Returns, a group of 45 people
Shadowrun: Dragonfall, a group of 42 people
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut, a group of 37 people

Not really sure what that tells us. Did you look at some of the differences? Someone from one of the companies doing the environmental design for SRR, DF, and SR:HK wasn't in DF: DC. There are some art interns in SRR and DF that ended up working on SR:HK, but weren't listed for DF: DC (which has no art interns listed, while SRR has 14 listed and DF has 9). I presume a lot of that is because there wasn't a lot of additional art needed for the Director's Cut.

It is interesting looking at specific positions, though. For instance, design:
SRR: Trevor King-Yost, Kevin Maloney, Mike Mulvihill
DF: Simon Cameron, Trevor King-Yost, Kevin Maloney
DF: DC: Trevor King-Yost, Kevin Maloney, Simon Cameron (Trevor King-Yost being the design lead)
SR: HK: Trevor King-Yost, Tyler Carpenter, Connor Monahan (Trevor King-Yost being the design lead)

So two of the 3 designers for Dragonfall weren't designers in HK - one wasn't part of the time at all, the other was the "Matrix Lead." The Director of SRR was Wiseman, for DF and DF: DC it was McCain, and for SR:HK it was Gitelman at first, and then Gitelman bringing McCain back as a co-director sometime into development when Gitelman ran into some issues. For writing, no one is listed for SRR (though three people listed for "additional writing"), Andrew McIntosh is listed as the sole writer for Dragonfall and DF: DC, and Andrew McIntosh, Mitch Gitelman, Tyler Carpenter, Elan Stimmel writers for SR:HK (with McIntosh being the lead writer).[/QUOTE]
 

Sykar

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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I didn't "instantly dislike a major NPC", who are you even talking about? Duncan? I didn't "instantly dislike him", he got progressively more boring and one-dimensional. Raymond is simply a McGuffin, nothing more. What you are describing can be done if the characters bond over their experience with the McGuffin and struggle together, changing each other in the process, HK has none of that, the only one who cares about Raymond is Duncan and he's dull.

What the heck did you expect him to be? And lo and behold there are plenty of boring people in real life as well so why should there not be some in the game? Not that your assessment of Duncan is universal truth, I liked him and if you go through certain dialogue choices he shapes up to a solid samurai type character later who even chastises you if you do something stupid.
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
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Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
even chastises you if you do something stupid

I think that might be the sticking point; some people might want someone who lauds you even if you take a dump.
 

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